National Insurance Contributions (Rate Ceilings) Bill (First sitting)

Matt Warman Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)]

Q 11 The Government have said that the Bill has no financial implications. If a grant is needed from the Treasury to maintain the mandated threshold of 16.7% of expenditure, do you think that this constitutes a financial implication?

John Whiting: I think that, in those terms, the nature of the national insurance fund, certainly as I have seen it over the years, inevitably goes up and down with the economy to a certain extent. The fact that there is a grant perhaps this year is not of itself exceptional. We are back to attempting predictions, which actuaries are very good at in this area, and seeing what the trends are. This is governed by such things as employment, because if more people are employed, earning more, there is more national insurance going into the fund, so potentially less need for a grant. Of itself, if we take the Bill as it stands, the question of a grant or whatever, is subject, as I said earlier, to what the Government Actuary is going to say about the likely outcome and the likely balances on the fund, which will have to take into account economic circumstances and the general position of contributions.

[Matt Warman (Boston and Skegness) (Con)]

Q 12 Given the fall in the national insurance fund, are there implications for continued NHS funding from the fund?

John Whiting: We are back to the question of what the fund is for. It is predicated on paying out benefits, particularly pensions. It is really a question you should address to the Treasury, with respect, because it determines where the money comes from. On an entirely personal level, I do not see a direct connection between the balance on the fund and funding for the NHS, but we are going into areas well beyond my compass with the OTS.

[Matt Warman]

Q 13 From your perspective, you are not anticipating making any cuts to NHS funding, or NHS funding going down overall?

John Whiting: I am afraid that I do not have the power to change the tax system, far less make cuts. My role is to make recommendations and it is for Ministers and Parliament to decide on such weighty matters. I know my place.

[Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Q 14 The Bill is part of the Government’s commitment to simplifying the tax system, but might the freeze on rates and on other taxes lead to complicated attempts to raise taxes in other areas? You have already mentioned that there might be a grant, which might necessitate raising taxes in other areas. Does that, in your opinion, exacerbate the problem of simplifying the tax system?

John Whiting: The fact that rates are kept stable is of itself a simplifying measure, because work we have done in the past has shown that the greatest source of complexity is change. It is as simple as that: the more changes you make to the tax system, the more businesses in particular and individuals to a lesser extent are confused and have difficulty with the tax system. Simply keeping rates stable is of itself a simplifying point. Your question, could this lead to more complexity elsewhere, is a very good one. I hope that, whether or not the rates are kept the same, that still leaves plenty of scope for us to bring forward recommendations about simplifying the structure of the tax system, making it easier to run.

We are looking at things such as the definition of earnings—although, conceptually, income tax and national insurance both broadly apply to earnings, the definitions are subtly different. Should those be harmonised? Should national insurance perhaps run on an annual, cumulative basis, rather than on a week-by-week basis as it does now, with parallel PAYE? Considering those areas, which could lead to simplification, is not in any sense affected by the tax rates, the ceilings that we have on this. As one or two people have pointed out, these ceilings do not preclude reductions in rates but, either way, as I read it, this does not hamper at all our work in looking at how the system will work and whether we can find areas that would simplify its operation for employers, individuals and, indeed, HMRC.