National Insurance Contributions (Rate Ceilings) Bill (First sitting)

Lucy Frazer Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Warman]

Q 13 From your perspective, you are not anticipating making any cuts to NHS funding, or NHS funding going down overall?

John Whiting: I am afraid that I do not have the power to change the tax system, far less make cuts. My role is to make recommendations and it is for Ministers and Parliament to decide on such weighty matters. I know my place.

[Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Q 14 The Bill is part of the Government’s commitment to simplifying the tax system, but might the freeze on rates and on other taxes lead to complicated attempts to raise taxes in other areas? You have already mentioned that there might be a grant, which might necessitate raising taxes in other areas. Does that, in your opinion, exacerbate the problem of simplifying the tax system?

John Whiting: The fact that rates are kept stable is of itself a simplifying measure, because work we have done in the past has shown that the greatest source of complexity is change. It is as simple as that: the more changes you make to the tax system, the more businesses in particular and individuals to a lesser extent are confused and have difficulty with the tax system. Simply keeping rates stable is of itself a simplifying point. Your question, could this lead to more complexity elsewhere, is a very good one. I hope that, whether or not the rates are kept the same, that still leaves plenty of scope for us to bring forward recommendations about simplifying the structure of the tax system, making it easier to run.

We are looking at things such as the definition of earnings—although, conceptually, income tax and national insurance both broadly apply to earnings, the definitions are subtly different. Should those be harmonised? Should national insurance perhaps run on an annual, cumulative basis, rather than on a week-by-week basis as it does now, with parallel PAYE? Considering those areas, which could lead to simplification, is not in any sense affected by the tax rates, the ceilings that we have on this. As one or two people have pointed out, these ceilings do not preclude reductions in rates but, either way, as I read it, this does not hamper at all our work in looking at how the system will work and whether we can find areas that would simplify its operation for employers, individuals and, indeed, HMRC.

[The Chair]

That concludes the questions of which I have been given notice. Does any Member wish to ask any further or additional questions? No. I thank Mr Whiting for his evidence. We will now move on to the next panel.

Examination of Witnesses

David Gauke MP and Cerys McDonald gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

Q 28 Following up on that point, is there a clear commitment from the Government to put measures in place to ensure that NHS funding is not reduced as a result of the measures in the Bill?

Mr Gauke: The measures in the Bill will not reduce NHS funding. There is not, in truth, a hard and fast link, because expenditure on the NHS is not confined simply to money coming from the national insurance fund. It is a clear commitment from our party at the last general election, and of course, we have a spending review coming up next month that will set out the details. A Government who are determined to focus support on the NHS, who can deliver a strong economy and who are prepared to make difficult decisions on other aspects of Government expenditure are in a position to provide the support to the NHS that we believe is right.

[Lucy Frazer]

Q 29 The Government have committed to simplifying the tax system. Mr Whiting confirmed that this measure will do that, and that it will bring certainty and stability through lack of change. Do you think that the change will have an impact on any other tax measures?

Mr Gauke: Of course, in the Finance Bill, we also brought in the tax lock in respect of income tax rates and VAT. I hope that that provides a degree of certainty and stability to taxpayers. In particular, in the context of employers’ NICs, the Bill provides an important degree of certainty for employers that they will not be hit by an increase in the rate of the jobs tax, if I may use that term. I hope that that provides certainty and stability. Of course, we are taking other measures as a Government, and we intend to publish a business tax road map by April next year setting out our plans over the course of this Parliament. It is all about creating an environment in which businesses can grow and invest, knowing that they have a Government who want a tax system that is supportive of them.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Q 30 Rather than simplifying the tax system, this effectively does a big fat nothing. It keeps things exactly as they are. Have you made any assessment of how much the process has cost?

Mr Gauke: First, what you might describe as a big fat nothing— keeping things as they are—can, as Mr Whiting said, at times be something that businesses welcome in terms of providing greater certainty. Also, as you heard, the Office of Tax Simplification is looking at the relationship between income tax and national insurance contributions to see if there is scope for simplification in that area. I think that the costs of the process would be negligible, but it is nevertheless of value to have legislation that underlines the Government’s commitment regarding tax rates.