Domestic Violence (Police Response)

Mary Macleod Excerpts

Thursday 10th April 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

Thank you, Ms Clark, for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I also thank the Backbench Business Committee and the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) for granting it.

Why are we holding this debate and why is the issue important? First, we need to consider the context of and the facts about domestic abuse. Last year, 77 women were killed by their partners or ex-partners, and each of those horrific incidents carries with it a story of fear and abuse, often over many years. It does not matter where in the country one is; abuse takes place in so many homes and communities that we must address it. I am pleased to see a mix of male and female colleagues here, because I stress that the issue affects men, women and children, and the men affected are often forgotten. According to the survey done of England and Wales last year, there were 700,000 male victims, but I would say that that is probably an under-representation of the real numbers, as men are less likely to come forward and say that they have been victims of domestic abuse or violence. We should consider trying to change that perception.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate and on the comments that she just made. To reinforce her point, the report stated that only 10% of men said they would tell the police about an incident of domestic violence, compared with 27% of women. Undoubtedly, men under-report domestic violence, although the figures for both men and women are still considerable.

[Mary Macleod]

I completely agree. Those numbers are sad, showing that people, especially men, do not yet feel that they can come forward. Additionally, abuse and violence against men is still more accepted: “It’s all right for a woman to hit a man.” Work must be done at all levels and across communities to say that that is completely unacceptable, just as it is unacceptable for a man to hit a woman.

The current crime survey showed 1.2 million female victims in England and Wales, but again, as my hon. Friend says, that is an underestimate. There has been an increase, but that may be partly due to the fact that more people feel that they can talk about the problem. Recent figures for England and Wales show an increase of 37% over the past five years, and the Metropolitan police in my constituency in west London report 41%. The figures are complex for the reasons that I have mentioned, but it is enough to know that it is a major issue in communities in this country and around the world.

It is also disturbing that one in three girls and 16% of boys aged 13 to 17 report having experienced some form of sexual violence, which highlights how much we need to do from a young age in our schools and communities to say that such violence should not be tolerated, especially now in the age of the internet, cyberabuse, sexting and digital means of communication, which are having an impact as well. At the moment, the cost to the UK economy is estimated at about £16 billion a year. If we can do something, not only will it transform people’s lives and change their futures, but it will help with the mountainous cost to the UK economy.

On any given day, more than 7,000 women and children in England are resident in a refuge. We do not have enough refuges; I am not sure whether there is a refuge for men in the country. I feel passionate about the subject because of those statistics, and because the world’s first refuge was set up in my west London constituency, in Chiswick, by Erin Pizzey in 1971. That is partly why I got so involved in the issue. Sandra Horley as chief executive of Refuge, as well as Women’s Aid and the many other organisations in the area, do incredible work to support women and children.

I have spoken at a number of conferences and visited several refuges to speak to the women and children there. They all have moving stories to tell, and one’s heart goes out to them, but that also highlights how important it is for us as Members to speak in schools and communities. I try to do so. At every school that I go to, whether primary or secondary, I talk about it, as I do in the churches, mosques, gurdwaras, Islamic centres or Hindu temples in my constituency. Wherever I am, I bring up such issues, because I feel that it is important to talk about them and get everyone engaged in supporting them. All stories are different. Just this morning, I received an e-mail from a constituent who fears for her safety and that of her son and is desperately seeking help to move to a different part of the country. Those are the people whom we absolutely need to help.

This debate is timely, because it follows a number of key publications: the Police Foundation report “Are we doing enough of the right things to tackle domestic abuse?” in November 2013; the Home Office report “A call to end violence against women and girls: Action plan 2014”; the report by the all-party parliamentary group on domestic and sexual violence, “Women’s access to justice: From reporting to sentencing”, which was supported by Women’s Aid, in March this year; and the recent report by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, “Everyone’s business: Improving the police response to domestic abuse”.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Having listed those reports, does she agree that there is a gap? There are certainly two gaps that I would like to bring to her attention. One is in orthodox religious communities, where victims of domestic violence are often ostracised if they must leave the community, and that may not be reflected in the services provided. The other is the growing problem of domestic violence among same-sex couples. The police may not know how to handle two women or two men. Does she agree that we need more support and specialist training in those areas?

[Mary Macleod]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that. I completely agree. The Minister may want to respond to that. Not enough has been done in those areas, and we need more specialist training in them across the country.

Looking ahead, in June this year updated guidance will be published on investigating domestic abuse. In September, new guidance will be published from the improved study on the cost-effectiveness of intervention programmes for children experiencing domestic violence and abuse. In January next year, research will be launched for Project Mirabal at the Centre for Research into Violence and Abuse. Work has also been done on a victims law by Keir Starmer, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, and others to see whether more can be done to encourage victims to come forward. I have been impressed in the past few years by the good cross-departmental working on this and related subjects, and I ask the Minister to reassure us that that will continue. The Home Office and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will hold an event in June on ending sexual violence in conflict, and in July the Department for International Development will hold a girls’ summit on female genital mutilation and forced marriage. All those initiatives on violence against women and girls have a part to play.

Some consistent themes have emerged from recent studies, including inconsistency between forces in the way cases are handled; lack of intelligent data gathering, training, and empathy for victims; and victims’ persistent reluctance to enter the criminal justice process. I want to speak about some of the key learning points in the reviews and how those can shape our response.

Faced with the disturbing statistics, the Government have made domestic violence a priority since 2010. The Home Secretary said in the document “Call to end violence against women and girls” in 2010:

“My ambition is nothing less than ending violence against women and girls. There can be no excuse for these horrific crimes that ruin lives, destroy childhoods and damage our society.”

Some valuable steps have been taken already to deal with domestic abuse. We have extended the definition of domestic violence to include emotional abuse and controlling behaviour and to include those aged 16 to 17. That was an important step forward: it is not just about physical abuse. Abuse goes far wider than physical violence. The lead-up to that—the financial, emotional and psychological abuse—is often as difficult to take as, and longer-lasting than, some physical abuse.

We have ensured that there is long-term funding for rape crisis centres. In London, where my constituency is, the Mayor has quadrupled rape crisis provision, opening three new centres and expanding the only centre in south London. We have piloted domestic violence protection orders, to be extended throughout England and Wales from March. We have introduced Clare’s law, the domestic violence disclosure scheme to enable people to find out whether a partner has a history of abusing. We produced the targeted “This is abuse” advertising campaign for teenagers, to get across the message about what constitutes an abusive relationship. The Government have allocated nearly £40 million in funding until next year for specialist local support services and helplines, and to part-fund 87 independent sexual violence advisers.

[Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that coercive control is often a pathway to violence, and far more debilitating than anything else? Should the Government consider at least criminalising coercive control in the same way as physical abuse is now criminalised?

[Mary Macleod]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I ask the Minister to look into it, because in many cases physical violence starts with emotional and psychological abuse. The stories of many victims show a pattern of behaviour: that can be manipulative or controlling, and financial or psychological. There may be an apology: it is always about making someone feel that they are at fault.

[Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most worrying aspects of the HMIC report on the policing of domestic violence was that it found there were weaknesses in risk assessment and the identification of domestic violence trigger points that might tip an unstable relationship into a violent, dangerous one? The recommendations about action plans to be produced by forces, and about improving training on risk assessment, are vital. Action should be taken as soon as possible.

[Mary Macleod]

My hon. Friend is right on that. It is difficult to understand what the tipping point is, but it is important to do that to find ways to save and transform lives before the point of major violence.

[Mr Newmark]

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has addressed the fact that policing, or the legal system—perhaps the Minister can clarify this—do not make it possible to pick up a behaviour pattern. Domestic violence is brought to court on the basis of an individual case, whereas problems could be dealt with much earlier if there was a legal framework to deal with the creation of a pattern of behaviour.

[Mary Macleod]

My hon. Friend makes an important point.

The Mayor of London has developed a strategy on violence against women and girls for 2013 to 2017. The Metropolitan police have identified a senior officer to lead on domestic abuse, and established a continuous improvement initiative known as Operation Dauntless. One of the strands of the operation is targeting domestic abuse perpetrators and managing their behaviour to reduce reoffending. The top five highest-risk perpetrators in each borough will be identified, and tactical plans will be put in place.

The HMIC report on the police response focused on four key aspects of the issue, and showed that we cannot be complacent and that there is much more to do. They were whether a force is effective in identifying victims of domestic abuse—particularly repeat victims and vulnerable victims; whether the initial force response to victims is effective; whether victims of domestic abuse are made safer as a result of the police response and subsequent action; and whether the force has the appropriate systems, processes and understanding to manage domestic abuse and risk to victims in the future.

The study identified some good points. Domestic violence and abuse are a much higher priority—they are a top priority for the Metropolitan police in my constituency in the London borough of Hounslow. Another finding was that 79% of victims were happy with the initial police response. Multi-agency partnership working has become more commonplace. That is the right approach, and can include multi-agency risk assessment conferences and safeguarding hubs.

Eight forces were singled out for particular praise, and I am sorry that the Metropolitan police was not among those. They are Lancashire, Dorset, Durham, Warwickshire, Norfolk, Northumbria, Suffolk and Thames Valley; they were felt to be doing a reasonable job. In Hounslow the police hold a weekly one-stop shop where victims can seek advice. There are monthly multi-agency risk assessment conference meetings. Four independent domestic violence advocates are on hand, and there are action-trigger plans for repeat cases. The police have issued TecSOS phones to the most vulnerable victims, so that they can seek help at the push of a button.

Operation Dauntless contributed to the fact that more than 200 more domestic violence cases were investigated last year, so it made a difference.

[Philip Davies]

My hon. Friend’s list did not include West Yorkshire police, the force in my area; but I have spent a lot of time out with the West Yorkshire police and have always found that they take domestic violence seriously as a crime. It is one of their top priorities. The report showed that for every 100 incidents of domestic violence that they went to, 88 arrests were made. That shows that they take the matter seriously. We should not think of forces as either failing or succeeding; there are many shades of grey in between.

[Mary Macleod]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I listed some police forces that appear to be doing well, but even they can improve. My police force and borough treat the issue seriously, and they know that they must treat it as a top priority for their local community, but there is still more that we can do to encourage them to improve.

[Nicola Blackwood]

My hon. Friend is being extraordinarily generous in giving way. Thames Valley police was one of the forces singled out for praise in the report. Domestic violence support has improved so much in the Thames Valley area, in Oxfordshire in particular, because of the work done with the voluntary sector and a network of domestic violence champions. Those champions are trained up by the domestic violence service in the county council, with three days of specialist training, going on to represent the domestic abuse service within the housing association, the local schools and all the different areas in which an individual might disclose abuse. There is therefore a shortcut to accessing the necessary services, and people do not find themselves being passed from service to service and person to person and among those who do not know how to respond. That has proved an effective way in which to increase reporting and to get help more quickly to people who need it urgently.

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[Mary Macleod]

My hon. Friend gives a perfect of example of how things can work well. We want to share such best practice in different communities and police forces among other forces, so that we can learn and ensure that more people’s lives are affected. Domestic violence is often a priority on paper, but not always in practice. We have to look at the outcomes. Some forces may be doing a lot of good things, but what are they delivering—what is the outcome? That is where sharing best practice, such as that which we heard about from my hon. Friend, would make a difference.

According to the HMIC report, there is also a lack of appropriate technology to give information on a repeat offender to officers before they deal with calls. Only 58% of those interviewed felt safer because of the whole police experience. Furthermore, the quality of information gathered at the scene is often poor, and the number of evidence-led cases—in which police take forward a case based on significant evidence even when the victim decides against pursuing charges—is small. Neighbourhood policing teams and their local knowledge are insufficiently used and repeat offences do not always trigger high-priority action. Moreover, some police officers lack the skills, or the experienced training discussed earlier, required to deal with the sensitivity of domestic abuse incidents; e-training is often not sufficient and something more is needed.

The report made many recommendations and called for a national oversight group to report quarterly on the achievement of its recommendations and for each force to have an action plan. I am pleased that the Home Secretary has already agreed to chair a national oversight group, as suggested. Will the Minister reassure us that that work will focus on effective outcomes and not only on the publication of endless statistics and reports? Those action plans and what they are delivering—the change on the ground and to people’s lives—are what is important.

As a result of such studies and the information in front of us, I can highlight four areas for the Minister that would help us to make progress. First, the role of leadership is key, as is often the case when we need to bring about a culture change within organisations. It is not enough to give domestic violence and abuse a high profile in the action plans, leaflets and noticeboards within each force; it is through deeds and action that the priority will become real. The police and crime commissioners and, in the case of London, MOPAC—the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime—must ensure that that happens. Will the Minister reassure us that the Home Office will review the PCC priorities to check that domestic violence and domestic abuse are included? Will it monitor that on an ongoing basis?

Secondly, on professionalism, innovation and partnership working, domestic abuse cases are by their nature complex and need to be treated sensitively, but that means having in place a mix of the right trained resources, effective processes and intelligent use of technology. Individual officers often make the difference in the cases and for the victims to whom they talk. I was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) said, because some of those officers could take on the role of ambassadors to support cross-force training sessions and focus groups to build best practice, perhaps together with some of the victims who are willing to share their experiences.

The College of Policing will be publishing updated guidance on the approach to domestic violence cases, and professional, evidence-led policing should be fundamental to the review. No longer will it be acceptable for photos of abuse to be taken in only 50% of cases, for example, and tapes of 999 calls should always be available. There are also examples of some innovative technology that can be used, such as the Vodafone Foundation’s specially adapted TecSOS phones, which I mentioned earlier and which enable vulnerable people to get help at the touch of a button, or the body-worn cameras, which officers in my area are beginning to use. Those things will help. I would also like to see technology used to trigger an instant red alert to all agencies following repeated calls to the police about escalating violence. It was heartbreaking to read the recent story about Christine Chambers, whose increasingly frequent calls to police were not logged on to the system until after her death and that of her two-year-old daughter, Shania. How will the Minister ensure that guidance from the College of Policing is fully integrated into day-to-day policing operations?

Thirdly, on prevention, we also want to reduce the number of cases, so prevention is vital and the police can play an important role. The “This is Abuse” campaign has been effective in making it clear to young people what constitutes abuse in a relationship. The campaign lends itself well to work in schools and I am glad that it is due to be extended. I also welcome the recent “Sex and relationships education (SRE) for the 21st century” supplementary advice to schools, which was published in February. I am interested to hear whether the Minister feels that that is sufficient, or whether more needs to be done, but it will help teachers to adapt and update their relationship advice to take account of, in particular, the technological and social media changes of recent years. Both men and women need to be involved in spreading the message that domestic violence and abuse are completely unacceptable in today’s society.

Fourthly, on wider reporting, an estimated 80% of all domestic violence incidents are not reported to the police, as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who gave more detailed statistics. Neighbourhood policing teams and multi-agency teams can play more of a role in encouraging wider reporting of domestic abuse. As Members of Parliament, we should be able to do that as well, as we go about our constituencies and talk about it, in particular when children are involved in cases. Women with children are especially reluctant to report incidents to the police, because of the fear that the children might be taken away. Victims must be reassured that the priority is all about protecting their safety and that of any children involved. If prosecution is not deemed necessary, procedures should still be in place to prevent future incidents. Will the Minister update us on what is being done to encourage greater reporting of domestic violence incidents?

I want to give hon. Members time to speak on this important issue, so I will draw to a close. I welcome the production of the reports, although they make for some depressing reading. We now have, however, a good body of data to help direct our work for the future. The more we talk about the issue and share our ideas, the better things will become. We have made good progress, as I have mentioned, but there is a long way to go, and the variation in the performance of different police forces is not acceptable, so there needs to be more cross-working between forces to learn from each other.

Locally, in addition to my work in schools and the community, I am hoping to host a domestic violence summit for west London, and I have invited the Home Secretary to participate. All of us, whether Members of Parliament or people in different roles in society, can keep putting the message across that domestic abuse in any form is completely unacceptable. We should all do something to help to change the lives of men, women and children so that they may have a safe and secure future.

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[Tim Loughton]

My hon. Friend, who has a great interest in the subject, is absolutely right in her final comment. It is an excuse. Data protection has for too long in child protection cases, just as in domestic violence cases, been used as a reason for not acting, and that just should not be the case. Nothing under data protection prevents people from sharing the data in a responsible manner with other proper professionals, be it through MARACs or other structures, when clearly it is in the interests of the potential victims or victims that they are looking after.

We have a very good MARAC in West Sussex, where the agencies work well together. I also flag up MASHs—multi-agency safeguarding hubs. I visited many of them round the country and what matters there is getting all the professionals around the table eyeballing each other and talking to each other. It was interesting to visit the MASH in Haringey, an authority that has gone through a pretty traumatic time, with baby P, Victoria Climbié and others. I saw the way that its MASH works: when an incident comes in, around the same table very quickly will be social workers, police, people from the housing department and from education. They will all be sharing information quickly. They do not have to go through protocols about getting information; they will be on the phone and on the computer getting that information.

I also saw that in Stockport. People knew far more from talking to each other and they rarely had to go to the computer. If they did, it was usually to check something that they knew already. That is why it is so important that professionals talk to each other face to face, rather than through the internet and electronic communications. There is no substitute for the experience of professionals who have been on the front line—and often know a fact about a family going back many years—and can come up with the right information. They are more likely to make the right judgment and intervention.

I want to finish with three points about what should be done. We need to make this a high-profile taboo subject. Mariella Frostrup rightly wrote in an article some time ago:

“We need a Man Army”

that is able to stand up and say that domestic violence is “for cowards.” We know that an awful lot of people in this country—particularly young people—are unduly influenced by celebrities, and we need a few celebrities to come forward and say exactly that and use their influence for good, rather than appearing too often in our Sunday tabloid newspapers creating the wrong impressions for our young people to follow.

The United Nations’ “Real men don’t hit women” campaign is another thing that we need to make available to our young people. I absolutely echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth that we need better education. We need better hands-on education about respectful relationships, and we need to tailor it particularly to certain black and minority ethnic communities where we need to handle the issue very carefully.

Children are better able to cope and recover when they get the right help and support, for example, from other family members, peers and school. Some children find it helpful to speak to a professional—a trained counsellor or whoever—but it is not uncommon for victims of domestic violence and abuse to take a long time to recognise what is happening. For some families, domestic violence and abuse are a normal part of family life. Even when children realise that a situation is wrong, shame can make it difficult to speak out. As my hon. Friend also said, there is often a fear that children may be taken into care if a woman comes forward to say that there is a domestic violence problem.

We need to ensure that social workers can recognise who is to blame and are as open as possible, so that those women can open up to them without fearing that they will lose their children through no fault of their own. Having a trusting relationship outside the home can increase the chances that someone affected by domestic violence and abuse will manage to talk about their experience. Sharing the secret with someone outside the family is the first step in breaking out of the cycle of violence and abuse. We need to ensure that there are trusted confidants. In school, they will be teachers, school nurses and perhaps social workers working in schools, of which there are good examples. Children will be able to go to them, trust them and pour out their experience, so that someone can recognise that and do something about it.

Secondly, I have a concern about the legal aid changes. We had an event in the House on that issue last week. Necessary changes are being made in legal aid, and domestic violence cases should be exempted from them, but in some cases that is not happening. In some cases, women are not getting the professional support that they need to ensure that they are getting the full protection of the law. That is not acceptable. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be able to look at the matter in more detail to see whether there are unintended consequences from some of the changes being made to the availability of legal aid.

My third point was also made by my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth in opening the debate. We need to ensure that there is better training of police and other professionals working with all the agencies. I am very glad to say that in my area and that of the Minister, largely due to the new police and crime commissioner, Katy Bourne, domestic violence has become one of the priorities. She has done a lot of work to ensure that Sussex police are sensitive to and able to cope with incidents of domestic violence. I pay tribute to the excellent women’s refuge services in Adur and Worthing in my constituency.

Housing is a particularly important element in all this. Too often, women are confined in accommodation where they are experiencing domestic violence because housing services are not liaising properly with the police, social workers and others to ensure that those women are appropriately relocated out of harm’s way, which often means across local authority boundaries. We need to have a better networking system between local authorities, so that safe accommodation can be made available, often at short notice.

[Mary Macleod]

I am very glad that my hon. Friend has raised the issue of children, because that is a critical part of the debate. He is considering housing. Part of the problem is often that a woman will go into a refuge for some time with her children, but then they end up getting put in temporary accommodation until something else is found. That is still unsettling for the children. I want to push councils to try to get families quickly into not temporary accommodation, but more stable housing, so that the lives of the children are not disrupted again and they can go on to live fulfilling lives.

[Tim Loughton]

Again, my hon. Friend is absolutely right, because we look at this issue as primarily about getting the victim out of harm’s way and into a place of safety—that is clearly the biggest priority—as well as the children. However, that situation may pertain for some time, and children need stability. They need continuity in their education and access to other people and friends around them. We therefore need to ensure that there is some long-term planning so that the children can still access all the services and facilities that they need as children growing up, but in safety. There are complications with that, but again, early intervention involving housing services, police, social workers and specialist domestic violence people and charities can make the process easier, rather than it just being a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) about psychological violence, because the issue is not just bruises and broken bones, although they are easier to see. As important in many cases but much less easy to see are the effects of the psychological violence of a controlling person—coercive control, as my hon. Friend puts it. We need to be better at detecting that. That means better psychological training for some of our social workers and more specialist domestic violence social workers who are able to bring in all the different aspects of the issue, as I have said.

There is also, of course, the question of what we do about sexual violence. We have talked about physical violence. I have just mentioned psychological violence. There is a worrying and growing trend of sexual violence. In this Chamber earlier this week, we had a very interesting debate about the pornification of the young and the influence that violent pornography in particular is having on impressionable young children. I remember a particularly appalling case on “Woman’s Hour” in which a 15-year-old girl had been forced to watch violently pornographic films, videos, by her boyfriend and then to re-enact the sex that had been portrayed in them. That was seen as normal by the boy, but when the girl was asked, “Why didn’t you just tell him where to go?”, her response was, “Well, I didn’t think I had the right to say no.” Again, that was a very depressing response. We need to ensure that our girls in particular have the confidence and the know-how to be able to say no and mean no, and that our young boys do not normalise pornographic violence and unacceptable hard-core sex as what growing up is all about. That goes back to the education process as well.

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[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

I apologise for the fact that I was not here for the start of the debate. I was at the dentist, but I got here as soon as I possibly could. I want to raise a particular issue in the context of a series of general issues on domestic violence and police investigation.

I start by congratulating Thames Valley police, which had a pretty decent showing in the recent report on the police response to domestic violence by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. That report shows the extent of domestic violence in the area that I am proud to represent. Domestic abuse in the Thames valley accounts for 7% of all recorded crime and for 12% of assaults with intent. One third of assaults with injuries are domestic violence related. More than half of harassment cases are domestic violence cases, as are 10% of sexual offences. Those figures are pretty enormous, and they show that it is important for police services to make tackling domestic violence a high priority. On the whole, I think, Thames Valley police does that. I was pleased when the new commander in Slough told the local newspapers that his priority was dealing with domestic violence. Making it a focus in such a way begins to help to make women safe.

The problem is that even where the police are reasonably effective, as I think they are in the area that I represent, victims are often not fully protected in practice. One reason for that is that the criminal justice system fails them. One of the recommendations in HMIC’s report is that Thames Valley force

“should develop further the investigative process for domestic abuse, to ensure that officers collect all available evidence, to help build strong cases against perpetrators.”

There is a real failing to secure effective convictions, and one of the reasons for that is a practice that I hope the Minister can ensure is changed.

When it prosecutes men for domestic violence, the Crown Prosecution Service does not automatically ask the victim whether she wants a non-molestation order. If the victim has to get a non-molestation order on her own, she has to do it through the civil court and has to pay for it. The civil courts in the Thames valley do not allow victims to have McKenzie friends or other non-solicitor people to argue their case. Consequently, vulnerable victims of domestic violence are trying to make the case that their abuser is liable for a non-molestation order without legal advice because, frankly, they cannot afford that.

The Home Secretary said that victims of domestic violence will qualify for legal aid, but what does that mean in practice? Let me tell Members about my constituent, Mrs Busse, who, fed up after years of domestic violence, phoned the police; she reached that point of bravery that victims so rarely manage to get to on their own. She was given the telephone number of the National Centre for Domestic Violence, which told her that a lawyer would be found for her. She was put in touch with a nearby solicitor, who got her emergency legal aid. She then had to get that legal aid extended, because the solicitor told her that it had to cover the cost of her husband’s interpreter. It turned out that the solicitor was wrong about that, but we will come to that later.

When her legal aid assessment came back, Mrs Busse was told that she had to pay £560 a month. Mrs Busse is a carer in a care home. She has two children who are older teenagers, but still in education. If she had paid the assessed amount, she would have been left with a monthly disposable income of £682.25 for herself and her two teenage sons. In my view, that is grossly unrealistic. What did she do? She had to pay the first instalment because otherwise she would not have been represented at all at the original case and her solicitor would have taken away all the papers. She borrowed the money from her employer to pay the first instalment, but then cancelled the legal aid certificate and represented herself. Luckily, in the civil court she got a sensible judge who said that it would be sufficient for her to interpret the documents for her partner. She now has a non-molestation order, but what happened is not tolerable for a victim of chronic domestic violence. It just is not acceptable.

The problem seems to be that, even where a police service is quite well organised in dealing with such matters, too often in our system actually getting the things that the victim needs to make themselves safe becomes a burden. One reason why women stay with violent partners for a long time is poverty: they are often financially dependent on the violent partner. We must ensure that women in such circumstances are not burdened with extra spending.

I would like the Minister to promise that he will talk to the CPS immediately about ensuring that in every prosecution the victim is asked whether she wants to proceed with a non-molestation order as part of the criminal prosecution. That does not automatically happen, but it should. I would also like the Minister to discuss how we can better inform women in such circumstances about the possibility of free representation. Independent domestic violence advocates have made a huge difference, but they are no good if the civil courts will not allow them to represent victims.

I want to follow up on the comments made by the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who rightly focused on how a culture of violence and violent pornography can make children feel that such behaviour is normal, and that they are disempowered and unable to say no. Victims of domestic violence talk about how hard it is to say no—it is a real struggle for them to give up and leave someone. We seem to be preparing children for becoming victims, which is just not acceptable. We should be giving them the resources, as children, to be more resilient. The issue is not just about getting effective prosecution and policing, although we need both; it is also about people being able to protect themselves more effectively.

One way for people to protect themselves from domestic violence is for them to know their rights, to know what is reasonable and to stop thinking that it is their fault when they are hit. That requires really good quality sex and relationships education for children. We have all been mimsy about that, but unless children have it, they will not know in every household what is right and wrong in relation to sex, because sex is this adult mystery. We must prepare them, as children, to protect themselves.

[Mary Macleod]

Does the hon. Lady agree that it is also important to teach children about emotional abuse? On the physical side, in a way it is quite easy to say, “If you get hit, that is unacceptable”, but emotional abuse is much more complex, difficult and disruptive to any victim who goes through it.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

That is why relationships education is so important. It is important to tell children that if something makes them feel uncomfortable, it is their right to say, “Stop—I don’t like this.” Other European countries that have robust sex and relationships education teach children how to deal not just with violence as adults but with bullying. That is important. If we start by enabling children to know what is not appropriate, safe, right or kind, we give them the ammunition they need. I am sorry to use a warlike analogy, but in that way we will give children the skills that they need to protect themselves.

We would all like to reduce the number of victims. One way to do that is to improve prosecution and make victims safe, because so many are repeat victims—nearly half of those in Thames valley are. It seems that to help to prevent abuse in the first place through child education is utterly essential. If we dip out on that, we will have on our consciences more children who will become victims when they are adults.

One argument for educating children that might appeal to the Government is that it will save money. Protecting victims better saves money in a whole load of areas. First, it saves money for businesses; domestic violence costs them millions of pounds, as it affects the health of their employees. Baroness Scotland, who used to be a Home Office Minister, did a great deal of work with businesses on the cost of domestic violence.

Domestic violence also imposes imprisonment costs on the Government. I am chair of a charity called Commonweal. We set up a project called Re-Unite, which aims to house women who have left prison, so that they can reunite with their children. After independent assessment by criminologists from Oxford university, the evidence is that that makes a great deal of difference to those children’s futures. It also makes a great deal of difference to the women, as they are able to look after their children in secure housing.

To qualify for entering Re-Unite’s housing, women have to have been victims of domestic violence, and in our criminal justice system there is no shortage of such women. We know that a large number of women prisoners have mental health conditions, but we also need to address the fact that a large number are long-term victims of domestic violence; the emotional abuse and control that Government Members have been talking about form part of their history.

For those women to be able to become autonomous, positive, rehabilitated and contributing members of society—as some of the women who have been through the Re-Unite programme have been able to become—one of the things they need is the skills and resources to protect themselves and to be able to say no to their violent partner, who, frankly, is sitting outside the prison gate waiting for them to come out; he controls the home, he can beat her up again and he has been missing his punchbag.

It is essential that we try to ensure that every police force in the country recognises that domestic violence is a priority. We need much better prosecuting to bring the perpetrators to justice much more effectively. We need better prevention, through the education of children and victims; in that way, they can protect themselves more effectively. If these three things happened, this would be a much safer country for women to live in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Baker]

When I said low-level, I was referring to perhaps each individual instance, but I very much accept that the accumulation of such instances may, of course, have a result that is worse than an instance of violence. I am sorry for giving the wrong impression.

As I said, we think that the behaviour we are discussing is already covered by the law; the issue is that the data are not being collected and the evidence accumulated in a way that leads to successful prosecutions in many cases. Nevertheless, we do believe that it is possible to deal with such behaviour under existing laws. I am reluctant to move towards having narrowly defined, specific laws, because the thrust of the Government’s intention has been to move away from that. Narrowly defined law can lead to people finding loopholes, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for Warrington North. An example of our intention is that we have amended the antisocial behaviour legislation to make general offences easier to deal with, because exemptions have been found that made prosecutions unsuccessful. I believe that a general definition that can include coercive behaviour will be a more successful way forward, provided that the police are collecting the evidence and a system is in place to enable that to be successfully followed through to a prosecution.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham mentioned the provisions of the Children Act 1989. He made an important point and, as he said, it has not been given sufficient attention in the past. I will undertake to see what we might do to tie the Department for Education rather more into these matters—he will be aware of my wish to do so—and to ensure that legislation that is specifically children-orientated is given proper attention. He is right to say that children are not necessarily attacked physically, but can suffer significantly, as he very eloquently outlined, as a result of being in a place where domestic violence occurs, particularly when it occurs over a long time. That will be very damaging to children.

The hon. Member for Warrington North was right to refer to the work on gangs, because the work by the Deputy Children’s Commissioner in the harrowing report on gangs demonstrated how teenage girls in particular are often subject to appalling violence. That is one reason why we have been running the “This is Abuse” campaign, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth referred. That is also why it is targeted particularly at boys, why the message is very clear that no means no, and why we are trying to educate young boys in particular about what consent is. Clearly, there is an issue about people understanding consent, and that needs to be rectified.

We are also using role models who will be effective in getting these messages across, so that it is not Ministers or police officers who are communicating the messages to young boys; it is, for example, pop stars. We have used the band The Wanted, Jason Derulo and people like that, and we have also used outlets such as MTV. We have tried to use the outlets and the people who will be effective in getting the messages across, and I think that we have been quite successful in doing that.

The HMIC report states that an

“HMIC inspection on child protection is currently underway. It will review how effective the police are at keeping children safe.”

The Department for Education believes that it is important that police advise children’s social care when children are in an abusive environment. In the most severe cases, children at immediate risk should be immediately protected by being removed if necessary. If there is further work to do to link up the police and children’s services, I hope that will be considered by the oversight group as well.

[Mary Macleod]

One of the important points that my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) talked about was the impact that domestic violence has on children in the long term. It is almost as though it is subconscious, learned behaviour that could affect them. Although yes, the issue is absolutely about immediate safety, it is also about ongoing support, counselling and mentoring to support those children, so that they can get over some of the experiences that they have been through—the learned behaviour can sometimes be very much in the subconscious—so that they do not go on and repeat such behaviour later on in their own lives.

[Norman Baker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a clear generational pattern, in that those who have been abused are more likely to abuse others in future, or to allow themselves to be abused in the future, than those who have not suffered such abuse in their formative years. Therefore, cutting the generational link is very important, so she is absolutely right to draw attention to that.

I want to mention Cumbria constabulary, which is currently running a pilot in one area of the force. For medium and high-risk cases involving children, the force will make contact with a nominated person at the child’s school to alert them that the child has been at home when a domestic abuse incident took place, so there may be a risk. That seems to be a very good example of the police working sensibly with those who have responsibility for caring for children. Leicestershire police is also piloting a similar approach with a number of schools in Leicester, where the force notifies the school if the child has witnessed a domestic violence or abuse incident.

I have mentioned one or two matters to which the hon. Member for Warrington North referred, but I will pick up one or two other points to try and be comprehensive in my response. She referred to police IT systems. I mentioned the digitisation that is going on in the police, which is both making the police more effective and saving money. The other steps that are being taken through technology are doing those two things as well. Police IT will be discussed with police leadership as part of the agenda for the national oversight group that the Home Secretary has established. I had not yet addressed that point of the hon. Lady’s.

The last point I wanted to make was about saving money. The hon. Lady referred to the fact that dealing with domestic abuse will save money, as though that were a motivation for the Government. It will save money; she is right in the analysis that doing the right thing and reducing the number of cases of domestic abuse will end up benefiting the public purse, but I want to be absolutely clear to all Members today that that is not a motivation that is driving the Government. What is driving the Government today is our horror at domestic abuse and domestic violence, and our determination to stamp it out. If it saves money, that is a beneficial side effect, but it will not be the driver either way. Even if it costs money, we will be taking action on this front.