Leeds Children’s Heart Surgery Unit

Martin Vickers Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to take part in a debate under your chairmanship again, Mr Hollobone. I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). This is something of an action replay, not only for you, Mr Hollobone—you were in the Chair last week for the debate on Glenfield hospital in Leicester—but for the Minister. I apologise to her that some of the points that I am going to press her on now are identical to those that I raised last week. One is the point about distance.

It is noticeable that three out of the four representatives from northern Lincolnshire are here to take part in the debate. We are the remotest part of the area served by the hospital. That does not just present problems for people visiting. As we have heard in previous debates and meetings, getting babies to a unit has actually made the difference between life and death, and that cannot be ignored. In the Cleethorpes area, there are a large number of parents and grandparents whose children have received treatment here. We held a public meeting in July and the strength of opinion was evident.

In last week’s debate on the Leicester unit I was slightly disappointed by the Minister’s response. I appreciate that she is walking a tightrope, but she is noted for being an independent voice. She showed signs of being sucked into the departmental bureaucratic nonsense that we often hear, but I am sure she will rectify that in half an hour’s time. Commenting in her reply on something that I said, she made the perfectly valid point that in cases of the kind that we are considering we want

“fewer, but much bigger units.”—[Official Report, 22 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 186WH.]

That is the opinion of some experts, but equally, of course, other experts disagree. If we are to be ruled by expert opinion, there are two possibilities. One is that we pack up and go home, because we are superfluous. The other is that because experts always disagree, someone democratically accountable is needed to arbitrate between them. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) wishes to intervene, as usual.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I want to intervene to defend the Minister. My hon. Friend is entirely right about the geographical problems in our area; but even if we accept the argument that we need bigger units, is not the core issue the fact that the population—the patient base—is in our region, not in the north-east? If we must go along this line—let us assume that we must—we should move the doctors to where the patients are, not the other way around.

[Martin Vickers]

As usual, my hon. Friend and neighbour is correct. Because of the remoteness and so on, the assumption that all patients in northern Lincolnshire will transfer to Newcastle will simply not be borne out. They will choose alternatives and I suggest that most will gravitate south. Therefore the Newcastle target of 403 will not be achieved.

There are expert opinions on both sides of the argument. The significant point is that the parents and grandparents of the children who receive the treatment are not convinced about the alternatives, because they have seen surgeons and other experts in Leeds performing miracles on their children with modern medical technology. That is their doubt: they do not have confidence in the alternatives when they have seen the Leeds centre of excellence in action.

My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey stole a line from me because I too was going to quote the point that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier) made in last week’s debate. I will take another line from his speech:

“The Secretary of State has the levers of power in this question and he must pull them—he must exercise them”.—[Official Report, 22 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 188WH.]

That is what we expect. We do not want the question shuffled off to a panel of experts, with automatic acceptance of what they say. Different experts come up with different decisions.

Time is pressing. In Leeds we have a centre of excellence. It deserves our support, and already has the support of those we represent. I am sure that the Minister and the Secretary of State would not want to be responsible for destroying it.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

If the final three hon. Members who want to speak in the debate take five minutes, they will all get in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna Soubry]

I shall be absolutely blunt: I cannot answer that question. I took a strong view some time ago that if I did not know the answer to a question, I would say so. However, I am more than happy to write to my hon. Friend and answer his question as much as I can.

Travelling times were mentioned by a number of hon. Members. I was going to go through all those who mentioned them, but I may not have time to do so. I shall just make this point. Of course, it is surgery that it is proposed will be lost from Leeds and will go to Newcastle. It is very important that all hon. Members, when they communicate to their constituents about this debate, make the point that the plan is that the surgery will take place in Newcastle, but all the follow-up, all the support and all the other things that we might imagine are involved when a baby or a small child has surgery will continue to be provided at Leeds. It is not the case that the whole thing will move up to Newcastle; it is simply the surgery. I just put that into the pot because the point was made about travelling times. Of course, it is for others to say, but it may be that they take the view that those were very good points that hon. Members advanced in the debate today.

The hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) asked specifically about the JCPCT’s refusal, or otherwise, to disclose information. The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) spoke with passion, as ever, and commented on that, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey and other hon. Members. It is for the JCPCT to decide what information should be disclosed, in accordance with the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act. I am told that the Yorkshire overview and scrutiny committee has indicated its intention to refer the matter to the Information Commissioner, which is the established recourse laid down by legislation. I am afraid that it is not for Ministers to order the JCPCT to disclose information to the OSC in Yorkshire or any of the other local authorities involved. The various authorities are open to make applications under the Freedom of Information Act. I hope that answer deals with that point.

The powerful arguments the hon. Member for Leeds East put forward were largely based on population figures. I have already alluded to the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes. In large part, my hon. Friend and I disagree on the basis of the review. He said that different experts have different views, but I have to tell him that we have seen an outbreak of unity on this issue among many of the royal colleges, experts and leading clinicians in the field, who welcomed the decision of the JCPCT.

[Martin Vickers]

We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West that experts in Scotland disagree, so there is clearly some basis for doubt.

[Anna Soubry]

I am grateful for that contribution, but I know that when the JCPCT’s decision was announced, it was universally welcomed by many of the clinicians who have been involved in such specialised surgery, certainly throughout England, but I cannot comment on the views of those north of the border.

I have a short time left to speak. The Independent Reconfiguration Panel is just that—an independent reconfiguration panel. I can provide details to those who need to know its composition. It comprises independent experts, and Members can be assured that they will conduct a full and independent review. As I said, they will take evidence from NHS organisations, local authorities and local MPs. It is hoped that their deliberations will conclude at the end of February. It will then be for the Secretary of State to receive the findings and recommendations and to decide whether to act on them. There is a concern that there may be some delay due to a legal challenge.

In last Monday’s debate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey made a helpful intervention, to which I responded that if any local authorities in Yorkshire are minded through their OCSs to refer the matter to the IRP, they should get on and do it. I want to put that into the pot, because the one thing that nobody wants is any more delay.

This debate began back in the 1990s, and hon. Members talked about what happened in Bristol. It was determined then that we needed to ensure that our babies and young children had the finest specialised heart surgery services possible, which is why it has been a long process. It is difficult and painful, but the Safe and Sustainable review was set up on the basis that there would be a reduction in the number of units. No one wants to set one hospital against another, and I pay tribute to everyone who has avoided doing so, but unfortunately sometimes tough decisions have to be made. It is always important to remind ourselves that they are made for the very best reason, which is to ensure that our babies and young people are safe and get the very best service.