European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [Lords]

Martin Horwood Excerpts

Monday 3rd September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

The hon. Gentleman is making his usual case that the use of article 122 was illegal. That may be his view, but it was clearly being used for the European financial stabilisation mechanism and therefore posed a liability for this country. Surely he must welcome a Bill mechanism that allows a treaty that reduces our liability. The new ESM will not include Britain, and we will not have that same liability. As a good Europhobe, he should support the Bill.

[Mr Cash]

As a Euro-realist, I am glad we will no longer be liable under the European financial stabilisation mechanism, but that does not exonerate the arrangements that were made by the then Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, and by the current Chancellor, not to mention the Business, Innovation and Skills Secretary. In May 2010, as the former Chancellor makes clear in his book, they were all involved in endorsing the decision on the transitional arrangements between the outgoing Government and the current one. The illegality is shared by all members of the previous and current Governments.

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[Mr Cash]

That is a very nice little intervention, because the reason we are in a double-dip recession—in so far as we are—is, first, the massive deficit that the hon. Gentleman’s Government left us with. Secondly, for reasons that I will explain, it is because of the massive deficit—as I said to both the Foreign Secretary and the shadow Foreign Secretary—that the European Union has with us. We are in such incredible deficit with the other 26 member states that it will be impossible for us to gain out of the 50% of our trade with them the growth that is needed to enable us to come out of recession and grow our economy.

I was disappointed, to say the least, that the problems with the eurozone were not even touched on in the exchanges between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Andrew Marr yesterday, when everybody knows that the failure of the UK economy is partly because of the deficit we inherited, but also because we cannot grow with a bankrupt European Union, with the exception of Germany. Indeed, half of our deficit with the other 26 member states is our deficit with Germany alone. So we have to be conscious that this is a real problem that needs to be resolved, and this Bill will do almost nothing except damage our economy.

Greece is currently in the throes of an EU-IMF economic investigation. One can almost hear the words of endorsement from the EU and the IMF before they have reported. I will be very surprised if they do not try to find some way to muddle through. As with the Bill and, I am afraid to say, the Government’s policy on Europe, real EU reform is off the agenda, as is a referendum.

[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman is very free in his criticism of the IMF—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not only in danger of crossing the Floor, but is turning his back to the House. Please will he address the House?

[Martin Horwood]

I beg your pardon, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will try to do better.

The hon. Gentleman is free with his criticism of the IMF and the EU and everyone else, but may I ask him a basic economic question? If not this, what? Does he advocate the chaotic disintegration of the eurozone? Does he ask the Germans not to seek guarantees for the finance they are providing for other European economies? Does he suggest that there should be no legal framework behind the necessary steps to tackle structural deficits in the eurozone countries? I can think of nothing that would more surely damn the whole European economy, including ours, than a chaotic disintegration of the eurozone.

[Mr Cash]

Again, I am grateful for the intervention because back in the 1990s during the passage of the Maastricht treaty—and I say this without any sense of self-satisfaction—I predicted that this is where we would end up. Massively high unemployment, riots in the streets, the rise of the far right and the implosion of the European economic system were all predicted in the Maastricht treaty debates. It is there in black and white. It is no good now saying that because those of us who took that position and made those predictions then were right that, somehow or other, we should say, “Well, that is just the past. Let us not worry about the present.” We are looking towards the future and we need to have an association of nation states based on the principle of consent by the voters, who have already expressed their views in repeated opinion polls and are denied referendums.

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[Neil Carmichael]

I am grateful for that intervention, which goes to the heart of the question. If we are worrying about powers that concern us, the answer to my question is still no. That is the point: the answer is still no, because no powers are being transferred through this legislation from us to the European Union. If anyone can describe a power that is being transferred, I want to know about it, but unless they can the answer is that no powers are being transferred. That point is really important.

I shall go further. The real issue about the legislation is that it effectively removes qualified majority voting from the issues of what we were deciding before. That is why we need not worry; we are saying that there is now a power of veto on the process—so, ironically, there is a further strengthening of the British approach to dealing with the European Union. I question the need for regular referendums because that would reduce the influence of the House and I certainly say that there is no need for a referendum on this item, because at the end of the day there is no evidence of any transfer of power.

That is not the end of the matter. The issue that has been bubbling around this debate is that we do not like the euro so we have to pull out or do something to undermine it. My point is that we are not going to join the euro, but we want to make sure that our interests as a country are properly protected so that we can continue trading with the countries that are in the euro.

Let us face it—those countries are significant traders. As a whole, the European Union still effectively controls a quarter of the world’s gross domestic product. Seventeen members of the eurozone are part of that and they are the bigger part of the EU. In sheer figures, we are talking about a large portion of the world’s gross domestic product. That suggests that we have to be sensible about how the euro is treated. Sensible American policy makers agree; they want Britain to be part of the European Union, exercising appropriate influence in a way that promotes the trade activities that we see in Europe and beyond. That is not true of all Americans; one or two in Tampa during the Republican convention would raise eyebrows. However, American government, in the broadest sense, recognises that having Britain in the European Union is a good thing because it has a good influence on how the EU shapes up. It is important for us to recognise that as politicians, policy makers and administrators.

Poland was mentioned earlier, and I understand why. It is a very interesting country to think about because it is the only one that has not had a problem with growth ever since this crisis started. That is partly because it has always had a relatively sensible approach to borrowing money and deficit management. It has also recognised its close proximity to Germany, which is of course part of the eurozone. It is not surprising that the Polish Government are now wondering exactly what they are going to do about signalling their intentions on joining the euro—a decision that Donald Tusk needs to start to formulate as the months and years go by. Poland is not necessarily going to reject the option of joining the euro, and that is in complete contrast to the usual story about countries leaving the euro. We need to bear that in mind as we deliberate on the future of the euro as a whole.

We do not want to join the euro ourselves; we think that would be a mistake. We are not planning to make any decision that would lead us towards having to do so, but the British Government and the British industrial state need to think very carefully about how the euro situation unfolds. Our relationships with the big players are therefore very important.

[Martin Horwood]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his speech, not least on his points about the importance of European trade to business in Gloucestershire, where both he and I obviously have an interest. He is doing a good job of flying a more positive and realistic flag for the Conservatives’ approach to Europe, and I congratulate him on that as well. Would he go as far as me in saying that until the eurozone returns to economic health it will become increasingly difficult for this country to return to full economic health, and that therefore any small thing that we can do to enable that to happen must be a positive? I am not suggesting that this Bill guarantees that that will happen, but it is perhaps one small step in helping to enable European, particularly eurozone, countries to rebuild their economies.

[Neil Carmichael]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention; I am very grateful for the level of support. Plenty of Conservatives share my views; he should not think that we are some sort of sect. He is absolutely right to point out that Britain’s best interests are connected with helping the overall economy in Europe, which obviously includes the eurozone.

Several hon. Members have referred to the situation in Germany, which is pivotal. One has to ask what Angela Merkel is really thinking and why she takes the attitude that she does about how the bail-out operations are decided and managed. That goes to heart of something else that has cropped up in this debate—devaluing currencies. The Germans like a robust currency because they believe that it is good for their economy. They have had one for an awfully long time, and in broad terms their economy has benefited from it. They know that the relative strength of the deutschmark before, and the euro now, has been a good thing for economic policy management. They also know that if they dish out bail-outs too prematurely they will not extract the necessary promises from the other nation states to put right the issues that are not so good in those countries.

At the end of the day, it is important that bail-outs lead to a result, namely improved productivity, better debt management and better management of public expenditure. That is what needs to happen in nation states that are in difficulty, which is why the issue of eurobonds is so interesting and is taking such a long time to crystallise into real results. Those countries that understand the need for robust currencies and, effectively, inflation-proof strategies will win a long-term gain, which proves that that is the right way to improve productivity and ensure that economies grow according to robust economic indicators.

It is necessary for the British Government to continue to work with the German Government in that regard, so that it remains possible for us to develop the right kind of relationship with the rest of the eurozone. We have to ensure, first, that we influence the single market to expand into services and energy; secondly, that we get proper discipline over public finances; and thirdly, that we recognise the value of strong currencies.

It is not true that devaluing willy-nilly achieves results—we have seen that so often in our own history and in that of other countries. Remember 1967, when devaluation was argued over ruthlessly by Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan and others, but what did it actually produce? It did not produce additional productivity or the kind of growth that was anticipated and so desperately needed. Devaluation is not a panacea in complex economic situations in which a lot of trading takes place between complex economies. That is an important marker for our own economic prospects.

In conclusion, I firmly believe that this country needs to deal with its deficit and I recognise the importance of reforming the real economy. I apply the same logic to both of those things in the European Union. Britain should be a positive influence. It should not necessarily be involved in the euro, but it should be able and willing to ensure that the world’s largest single area of economic activity remains a credible force for the future.