Afghan Refugees: Deportation from Pakistan

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call the SNP spokesman.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

It is only right and proper that the hon. Member for North East Fife (Wendy Chamberlain) has brought forward this urgent question today, so congratulations to them.

I note that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), who chairs the Joint Committee on Human Rights, is in her place. Her Committee’s report highlights that the Prime Minister of Pakistan has referenced the Rwanda scheme as their justification for deporting Afghans back into the hands of the Taliban. Does the Minister agree that the Afghan men and women who fought with British forces and were not brought out to safety through Operation Pitting, yet who managed to flee the Taliban and use small boats to cross the channel and get to the UK, should not be sent to Rwanda? Or is the message from the present British Government to our allies, “We’ll use you, but we’ll drop you when we’ve had our way with you”?

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan]

We have discussed the question of Rwanda a lot in recent weeks. We consider Rwanda to be a safe country, as does the international community. I do not think it is comparable to Afghanistan, but we are continuing to ensure that all those who worked alongside British forces, have applied and are eligible for ARAP, and those who are not in the military space but who have applied and are eligible for the ACRS, are able to have protection through the letter from the high commission in Pakistan, while we look to bring them to the UK in due course. That will continue to be the case until the programme is completed.

Hong Kong Security Legislation

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) for securing the urgent question. Let me try to get some answers from the Government about a response to what communist China has done, and critically what we can do in the UK about Confucius Institutes. Back in May 2022, the Open University bragged about being the first online Confucius Institute. Until 2023, the Government were allocating at least £27 million to Mandarin-language teaching, channelled through university-based Confucius Institutes. Will the Minister confirm that that has stopped? There is some confusion about that.

In relation to the comments made by the shadow Foreign Secretary, the Governments of countries such as the United States and others believe that sanctions are possible. The Netherlands and Germany have discouraged their universities from engaging with the Confucius Institutes; Sweden has gone as far as I would, by banning them. On providing answers, there are practical things that the United Kingdom can do about what is going on in Hong Kong. Will the Government consider ending the rights of Confucius Institutes in the UK? And will the Minister clarify the Government’s allocation of funding to Mandarin-language teaching through those institutes?

[Mr Mitchell]

We are very much aware of the Confucius Institutes and the way in which they operate. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we always keep such matters under review. If we have any changes to make to what we are doing, we will be sure to announce them in the House.

Points of Order

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady, who Chairs the Select Committee on Home Affairs, for giving me notice of her point of order. As she points out, the Government have not so far sought to make an oral statement to the House on this issue, but I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard her comments and will pass them back, perhaps to Home Office Ministers and officials. In the meantime, the right hon. Lady is a very experienced Member of the House, and I am sure that she will be aware of the various options open to her in the Chamber and Westminster Hall, and indeed through her Select Committee.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. On 7 January 2020, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Stewart Malcolm McDonald) led an Adjournment debate in this House on the UK special forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. I attended that debate not only as a constituency MP, but as the brother of someone who served in Iraq and Afghanistan and who, like the majority of the armed forces, did so diligently and with the utmost professionalism. In response to my hon. Friend, the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), who I have informed of this point of order, stated:

“There have been allegations made by individuals, a very small number of whom worked within the investigative teams.”—[Official Report, 7 January 2020; Vol. 669, c. 362.]

Only last month, the Minister submitted evidence, not only in person but in writing, to the independent inquiry on the deployment of special forces in Afghanistan, in which they stated that they had inadvertently misled Members of this House by reading out statements that they later found to be incorrect. Indeed, that was also communicated through a letter that they sent in August 2020 to the then Secretary of State—it was part of the evidence submitted last month—which states:

“That I have been allowed to read out statements to the House of Commons that individuals in strategic appointments in the department knew to be incorrect is completely unacceptable. These were clearly not complaints by ‘a small number of individuals within the investigations team’ but widespread.

I have continually downplayed these allegations in public, too, to support”

the special forces

“and the department.”

The Minister had the opportunity to correct the record when the House returned from the summer 2020 recess, but they have yet to do so in this Chamber.

You may correct me, Madam Deputy Speaker—I hope you will not—but the ministerial code is very perjink that it is of paramount importance that Ministers of the Crown be accurate and truthful in giving information to the House. It states that Ministers of the Crown must correct

“any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity”.

Indeed, the Minister stated recently on social media platforms:

“I am an elected politician who serves the public. I am not an appointed official and my position relies on my reputation and my ability to sustain public confidence in my character.”

I wonder whether you, Madam Deputy Speaker, agree with the former chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life, who advised the House that the Minister may have been guilty of

“letting the House of Commons down”.

It sounds like major incompetence.

The House of Commons is based on trust in the word of Ministers of the Crown, and trust that what Ministers say is true. If they promise to do something, it undermines the integrity of the political system when they do not keep to their word. Madam Deputy Speaker, can you advise how the Office of the Speaker will ensure that after more than three and a half years, the Minister comes to the Dispatch Box to correct the record and apologise to the House, and to those members of the armed forces who conduct themselves in a professional manner?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving me notice of his point of order, and for confirming that he has informed the right hon. Member to whom he referred that he intended to raise this issue. Mr Speaker has always been clear that if Ministers feel that the record needs to be corrected, they should do so as quickly as possible, but it is also true that Ministers are responsible for what they say in the Chamber—hence why they should correct the record if there is a problem. The operation of the ministerial code is not a matter for the Chair, and I hope that the hon. Member understands that. Having said that, those on the Treasury Bench will have heard his concerns, and will feed them back. If the Minister considers a correction is necessary, one will be forthcoming. I think we will leave it at that.

Ceasefire in Gaza

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

That is sooner than I expected, Mr Deputy Speaker, but thank you. Interestingly enough, I rose in the House on Monday and quoted a former Member of the House—indeed, a former Member for Dundee and a former Prime Minister—and I would lay the same proposition before the Prime Minister and the leader of the British Labour party, if they were here, regarding their delayed response to the cataclysmic genocide being rained on the Palestinian people: their British policy to Palestine has indeed been weighed in the balance and found wanting. How else can our constituents, and indeed the people of Scotland, view the British Parliament, when its political class has, since November—the last time we dragged it to debate this subject—deflected the reality on the ground in Gaza?

I would like to hear from the Minister, when they sum up at the end of this debate, what assurances the Prime Minister, and indeed any other Ministers, or shadow Ministers from the loyal Opposition, has received since November from the Government of Benjamin Netanyahu regarding the systematic targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure? Have their seemingly pious interventions in any way restrained the Government of Israel from their policy of genocide, all the while enabling Hamas—I have to agree with the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) on Hamas being a death cult—making them a partner in death, hate and crime? How does this British political class find itself in this devilish and ominous situation?

One hundred and fifty-three nations have concluded that an immediate ceasefire is necessary to bring an end to the utter devastation in Gaza and to seek a way forward to deal with the death cult of Hamas, who, as we know, are supported by the theocrats of Iran—a regime to which, I remind the House, the British Government have pledged to pay £400 million in regards to an outstanding debt. It is complicated, but the Chamber needs to discuss this, while the Government are, as I see it, pirouetting on the head of a pin. How is it that the French Republic has called for an immediate ceasefire? How is it that NATO allies such as the Kingdom of Spain and the Kingdom of the Netherlands have not only called for a ceasefire, but stopped sending arms to Israel? How have they come to conclude that which this Parliament and its political class cannot? One hundred and fifty-three nations disagree with this British political class, led by the British Prime Minister and the Leader of His Majesty’s loyal Opposition. One asks: opposition to what?

The way the State of Israel has been acting must be challenged. We cannot sidestep the issues faced by the Palestinian nation—as spoken to, I think, by one of the Members from the Liberal Democrats. Palestine’s survival, and indeed that of the state of Israel, depends on it. This is a generational injustice that the Palestinian people have endured. What is the answer? It is an immediate ceasefire. The Prime Minister of Israel’s strategy is to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the west bank. Let us remind ourselves: he is a Prime Minister who is already not only tarnished with a wicked policy in Gaza, but mired in allegations of corruption. In his Cabinet is one Minister who is a convicted terrorist and another who is a confessed fascist.

We must be mindful that in seeking peace, we require justice. That peace, as others have said, must be founded in truth, built according to justice, vivified and integrated by charity and put into practice in freedom—freedom, I am sure, that is desired by Palestinians and Israelis alike.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Anum Qaisar (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

The right hon. and learned Member for Northampton North (Sir Michael Ellis) began his contribution by telling Jewish people watching that they have friends in this Chamber. I wish to reiterate that in the strongest possible terms. Jewish people are not the Israeli Government and Muslims are not Hamas.

In a matter of weeks, Muslims across the world will fast from sunrise to sunset during the holy month of Ramadan. It is a time to take life at a slower pace. That, however, is far from the reality for people in Gaza. They live with hospitals bombed, homes bombed, ambulances bombed, churches bombed, mosques bombed, UN schools bombed, refugee camps bombed and factories bombed—and the bombing continues. Gaza is under siege from the air and the F-35 stealth bomber, often referred to as the most lethal fighter jet in the world, is being used. Parts for this fighter jet—the laser targeting system and the weapons-release system—are made in British factories. We simply do not know if those weapons are being used by Israeli authorities in the massacre of families and children in Gaza.

Politics is all about choices. The UK Government have the choice to stop or suspend arms export licences to Israel. There is precedent for that. In 2014, the current Foreign Secretary, then the Prime Minister, suspended 12 arms export licences in the light of evidence of human rights abuses. It is morally corrupt, outrageous and sickens me to my core that the UK continues to sell arms to Israel. To all the people of Gaza—mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, sons and daughters—I am sorry. I am sorry that this institution of Westminster has seen your tears yet ignored your pain and suffering. I am sorry that your hopes of returning to the beach to play in the clear blue sea have been snatched away from you. I am sorry that children are experiencing heart attacks and will live a life full of trauma. I am sorry that your dreams and aspirations have changed from becoming scientists and footballers, to dreams and aspirations of staying alive and accessing clean drinking water. I am sorry.

In their hundreds of thousands, the public have marched on the streets, a unified mass movement standing up against the status quo: people from different faiths and no faith, men and women, adults and children, and rich and poor saying that enough is enough and demanding a ceasefire. Here in Westminster, we may have the Whip system and direction from party leadership, but every politician is accountable for their own actions. It does not matter that this debate was tabled by the SNP, which has third party status. It does not matter if this vote is not binding. These are semantics. We cannot continue to accept the systematic and deliberate oppression of the Palestinian people. There must be an immediate ceasefire.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

In terms of the semantics, does my hon. Friend agree that we must remind ourselves of the words of Benjamin Netanyahu in 2019, when he stated that as long as Hamas remain in Gaza, he can always argue that there is no partner for peace during our lifetime? He is part of the cause of this situation.

[Ms Qaisar]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend and I thank him for his intervention.

Britain of course has a moral responsibility towards the wider middle east region, due to the scars of the British empire, the Iraq war and the incompetence of successive Governments who have promised peace yet failed to deliver. When we look back on this period of history, we will surely be asked and ask ourselves, “What did you do when Gaza was being relentlessly bombed?” Yet here we are in the House of Commons with Members of Parliament playing time-wasting games and abandoning international law. Why?

Situation in the Red Sea

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 24th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

It is always good to follow the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns), and I actually agree with quite a lot of what they had to say—I might go into that in a bit more detail in the next few minutes.

It seems strange to be having a general debate of this kind on a Wednesday afternoon in Government time. As the shadow Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), suggested, a general debate on defence and security has morphed into a debate on the situation in the Red sea—a more current and certainly more substantive topic, but one that will, I have to say, allow me to make the same points that I was going to make in a general debate, albeit within the frame of what I hope I am wrong in thinking is looking increasingly like some type of long-term commitment.

Those of us who speak about defence on a regular basis—I see some familiar faces here today—can probably finish each other’s speeches by now, as Members will probably have seen on the odd occasion. Whether we are colleagues on the Defence Committee—and I see that the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) is present—or ordinary Members who are interested in the subject, we tend to be a very dedicated bunch. While I certainly do not agree with everything that everyone has to say, I certainly always learn a lot from the contributions of Members such as my friend the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis), who is also present, and indeed the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), who has left the Chamber. It is safe to say that when it comes to debates such as this featuring as the last item on a Wednesday, Members usually have to care to take the time to participate.

That is why it is so frustrating, from my perspective, that time and again the Government’s rhetoric in relation to our defence and security, the current situation being a case in point, so rarely matches the action taken—again, from my perspective—and why I sometimes wonder, if His Majesty’s Government pay so little heed to the contributions of those on their side of the house, who exactly they are listening to.

Before I explore that much further, and perhaps add to what was said by the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, let me state the obvious: the Houthi movement is an obscurantist, antisemitic and theocratic death cult that has violated human rights and international law every step of the way. Not only does the Houthis’ current strategy continue these violations of international law, but they seek to use the suffering of the Palestinian people in a way that cannot be justified.

However, in my view—this is the point that may distinguish my remarks from not just those of the Government but those of the shadow Defence Secretary—the fact that current events in Palestine are not the cause of the Houthi attacks on shipping does not mean that they are not symptoms of the same phenomenon: namely, western indifference to the region, followed by periods of intense military involvement, and little effort made to address longer-term issues.

[Sir Alec Shelbrooke]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I will, briefly, but I want to move on quickly.

[Sir Alec Shelbrooke]

I just want to probe the hon. Gentleman slightly on his comments about the west not being involved in the region until something crops up. It was the Royal Navy, and other navies, that were protecting shipping from Somalian pirates, and it is the Royal Navy that has bases in Bahrain to support ships travelling through the strait of Hormuz. The west is involved in the region, and although that may be highlighted more now, I wanted the hon. Gentleman to clarify his comments: he is presumably not suggesting that we have not been involved in the region until now.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. Perhaps he should refer to what was said by his hon. Friend the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee about the diplomatic effort. I thought that her point about Arab-led initiatives was well made. Perhaps the Government should listen to that as a future intention. I think that is more to the point than engaging in military action, which has been ongoing for some time.

My SNP colleagues and I gave the first round of strikes against the Houthi targets qualified support earlier this month, and we do so again in respect of the latest strikes, but as we begin to slide towards what seems almost like an inevitable longer-term commitment, it cannot be said often enough that the “what”, the “how’” and the “why” of UK grand strategy are, at least from my perspective, dangerously out of sync. Let us start with last week’s keynote announcement from the Defence Secretary, who I see is no longer in their place, that

“The era of the peace dividend is over and 2024 will mark an inflection point.”

On the surface, that is a pretty banal observation, but whether we call it the polycrisis or the age of grey-zone conflict, those of us who come to these debates on a regular basis have been talking about the possibilities of this type of thing happening at least since I arrived in 2015. I am not sure how 2024 will be anywhere near the inflection points that 2014 or 2022 were; none the less, that is a bold statement from the Secretary of State. It is important to say that he also backed it up with the announcement of a £405 million investment in so-called drone-killing Sea Viper missiles.

On the surface, it would seem that the Secretary of State has got his why and his what sorted. We just need a how, and that is where I think we begin to run into trouble. For all the high-falutin’ rhetoric from the MOD main building, I am not sure that anyone here really believes we are going to meet the how in the form of an increase in defence spending to meet these new threats, given the disastrous state of the MOD’s finances, as seen in the latest National Audit Office report.

We are in the middle of the cost of living crisis, as we all know well. Inflation seems to be coming under control; it is only worse in the defence sector, and the proliferation of US dollar-dominated contracts is not going to make things easier, especially with a soft pound and the reality that we are now living in one of the poorest countries in western Europe. Any increase in defence spending at this time means a cut elsewhere in the budget; that is simply a reality. Although there are those, particularly on the Opposition Benches, who are brave enough to say that they would like to make cuts elsewhere to do this, I have seen absolutely no indication from the Government that they intend to do so.

I am no economist—hard to believe, I know—but I believe that practitioners of that special art call it a “revealed preference”. An example would be when a potential leadership candidate advocates spending 3% of GDP, only to quietly drop the commitment when they become Chancellor. All our recent Prime Ministers have made all the right noises when it comes to the problems in international security, but none of them, at least from my perspective, has met that challenge with a significant increase. Indeed, I think we can all agree that if that redoubtable and dogged former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace)—I let him know that I was going to mention him in the debate—was only able to secure an increase to 2.5%, and even then only by the end of the decade, I do not think anyone is expecting his successor to be any more successful.

I should point out—I say this as something of a sceptic about increasing the defence budget or even the value in such arbitrary targets—that we judge Governments based on their record, and this is what this one has. Once we start to scratch at the how in the UK strategy, the what and the why also start to come unstuck. Let us take the Sea Viper order: what was presented as an announcement to counter this new and specific threat has actually been on the table since 2012, only to be constantly shifted to the right because of pressures elsewhere on the budget.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

rose—

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I will give way to my right hon. Friend.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

I am grateful, and I regard him as my hon. Friend too. Before he leaves the issue of percentages spent on defence, would he not agree with me that, crude though they are, these are indicators of a national priority? The trouble is that if we do not spend enough on defence in peacetime, and then a conflict breaks out—we are now beginning to hear talk of having to be prepared for major conflict in the next decade or two—we will be spending vastly more than 3% or 4% on defence. So how much better is it to spend a bit more in peacetime to prevent the conflict, and how much better than that is it that America should realise that investing in Ukraine’s effort is also helping to raise the deterrence threshold?

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I both agree and disagree. Had the Ministry made sustained investment in capability, we might not have found ourselves in this situation. The right hon. Gentleman is welcome to stay for my Adjournment debate on nuclear infrastructure, in which we might go into the number crunching in far more detail—he may try to pass on that.

Far from being a simple drone killer, Sea Viper is a sophisticated ballistic missile defence system that has been in development since the 1980s. Each Aster 30 missile costs £2 million a pop. Whoever in the main building thought it was a good idea to call it a drone killer evidently had not done the cost-benefit analysis on taking out mass-produced Chinese drones, costing £100, with a £2 million missile. That is before we even get to the platforms that deliver the capability.

The Minister might be able to correct me, but the MOD is now officially refusing to publicly disclose the size of its escort fleet, which the Houthis probably already know—maybe it is in one of the TikToks that the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton mentioned. That refusal got a bit of play last week, although we should consider the why of it all.

If we can all agree that we are living in a world of increasingly complicated and interlinked threats, why is the Red sea important to the UK? I consulted two principal documents published since I became an MP—the 2015 strategic defence and security review and the 2021 integrated review—but, alas, there was no mention of the Red sea. Yemen was given a single cursory mention in each, and both in the context of other regional conflicts. The Government’s defence is that both documents were written before the Ever Given accident reminded us that the Suez canal and the Red sea are an important bottleneck for global trade.

Ultimately, neither document, one pre-Brexit and one post-Brexit, tells a compelling story about UK engagement in that part of the world, which makes it harder for me, and certainly for the public, to see why sustained engagement, if it happens, is in our long-term interest. Do not get me wrong: even as a committed north Atlanticist who believes that the primary commitment of Scotland and the UK should be to our northern European neighbourhood, I am open to being convinced. But the mood music throughout that time was on global Britain, without elucidating what that actually meant.

Do not get me started on the Indo-Pacific tilt either. The integrated review made the incredible assertion that the UK wishes to be the European state

“with the broadest and most integrated presence in the Indo-Pacific”.

That claim received very little interrogation at the time. Again, as a committed north Atlanticist, I was perhaps never going to be on board with the idea of an Indo-Pacific tilt, but the more I try to find out about it, the less convinced I become.

The Indo-Pacific is a big place and is home to two of the three largest oceans in the world and three of the five largest states. Any tilt towards it would surely require some sort of prioritisation, but we have never heard any talk of this. The Red sea region could have been part of that, securing the freedom of maritime trade from the Indo-Pacific and bringing in European partners with a presence in the region, along with others, but there was a complete failure to communicate any of that to Members, never mind to the general public.

Forgive those of us who are sceptical about the what. With the strikes against Houthi targets, we can clearly see the how. The Royal Navy, which is doing a commendable job, is in its poorest and most diminished state for many years. The right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford alluded to that, and it is a consequence not only of budgetary pressures but of a complete failure of this and previous Governments to make the case for the why, be that in the Red sea or the North sea.

Instead, we have a manpower and retention crisis caused by over a decade of wage stagnation; the ongoing possibility that the two remaining landing platform docks will be mothballed, calling into question the long-term viability of the Royal Marines; and the admission in November that the entire fleet of SSNs was alongside at the same time. Yet if we were going by the MOD’s spin on things, all is well, because we can still field two carrier strike groups, even though everyone knows we would never have the manpower to do so at the same time; the AUKUS deal will allow Astute-class boats to operate in the Pacific ocean, even though, as we have heard, they sometimes cannot even get to the North sea; and—who can forget, from last week—we now have a space laser, or at least we will in 10 or 15 years’ time. So let me end with a general observation: when it comes to UK grand strategy in the Red sea, denial is not just a river you end up in if you take a wrong turn on your way there.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mitchell]

My hon. Friend will have heard the Prime Minister’s words explaining what the strategy is and how we are implementing it, and I can tell him that the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence are perfectly joined in every sense in pursuing that strategy.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton, who in these matters is something of a poacher turned gatekeeper—perhaps it is a gamekeeper turned poacher, because she was previously a distinguished member of the diplomatic corps—delivered trenchant support for our actions. She spoke up for Arab-led initiatives in the region, and I thank her very much also for agreeing to organise a workshop on Iran in the House of Commons for half a day.

The hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes) asked who we are listening to. The answer is that we are listening to the House, and he will have heard today a House united. He set out the challenges facing the defence budget, and many in the House will understand and agree with him that the challenges are significant, but we are tackling those challenges.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Sir Alec Shelbrooke) spoke warmly and rightly about the Royal Navy. We thank him for his support, and he gave the House a geopolitical discourse, in particular on the challenges to the global food chain, and the whole House will have heard what he said.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (James Gray) reminded us of the excellence of his book, and we authors must stick together. He also explained, as the Prime Minister did, why Parliament was not consulted in these circumstances. That point was also visited by two Opposition Members, and I will come to that in a moment.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

There has been concern about the change of registration for vessels going through the Red sea, notably those changing to the People’s Republic of China. If the Minister cannot give me an answer today, will he write to the Defence Committee or its Chair, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Sir Jeremy Quin), on how many merchant fleet vessels are changing their registration from their country of origin to the People’s Republic of China, and whether Chinese-registered vessels have been targeted?

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Gentleman asks me a detailed question, and the Secretaries of State for Transport and for Defence will have heard what he said. I am sure they will be happy to write to him.

My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset spoke about the danger and the nature of the Iranian regime, and he eloquently set out the threat to international maritime law. As I have said, I cannot give a commentary on IRGC proscription, but I can tell him that we have heard his views and those of other right hon. and hon. Members.

British Nationals Detained Overseas

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Westminster Hall

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

It is good to see you in the Chair, Ms Ali. I thank the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Ms Rimmer) for securing the debate, and it is always good to follow the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) when we probably fundamentally agree completely on something.

This is not the first time that I have risen to my feet in Westminster Hall to speak on this very subject, and many here today will have heard me speak about it before, so I will do my best to say something new about the subject. There are many parts of the job that we are elected to do that our constituents expect us to do. Making speeches is one of them, as is helping constituents with the issues we all come up against as we deal with the authorities that be. There are, of course, others we do not expect to be involved in. I can say now, after eight years in this place, that dealing with constituents who are themselves in some sort of distress, or getting in contact on behalf of their family members who are, is certainly one of those things that we cannot prepare ourselves for before being elected.

Whether it is the distance, the unfamiliarity with the language and the culture, or just an enhanced feeling of helplessness, there is always a heightened feeling around such cases. I am afraid to say that the added extra in such cases always tends to be the disconnect, which is fairly unique in these instances, between what the UK citizen and their family expect and what services are actually available to them, as I think was alluded to by the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green. In this debate today, we are talking about UK nationals imprisoned overseas, but much of what I will say will also applies to many of those who come into contact with consular services.

Let us remind ourselves of the words that form part of our passports—recently updated, of course—to which, again, the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green alluded:

“His Britannic Majesty’s Secretary of State requests and requires in the name of His Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary.”

I would say that, for example, prisoners—those accused or convicted of wrongdoing—are the very definition of vulnerable people at the mercy of the state and how it administers justice. Regardless of their culpability within any jurisdiction, the very least the UK Government can ask of countries in which their citizens are imprisoned is that they are treated consistently and fairly.

Indeed, when I have previously spoken about the case of my constituent Jagtar Singh Johal, who was alluded to by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Sir Chris Bryant), I have used three phrases: transparency, due process, and the rule of law. Those are three things that I would hope any Indian national imprisoned here in the UK could rely on and should be the very least we expect in Jagtar’s case.

The case of my constituent Jagtar Singh Johal is a considerable matter of public record, and I have spoken in debates here and on the Floor of the House on a number of occasions since Jagtar’s initial detention in November 2018—coming up for six years ago. The circumstances of Jagtar’s arrest—being snatched off the street by unidentified men, held incommunicado, and then signing a confession, which, it later emerged, was extracted through torture—meant that the case got attention. His family, though understandably frantic, managed to have the presence of mind to bring together many of the elements within the Scottish, UK and global Sikh diaspora that eventually became the “Free Jaggi Now” campaign, which has fought tirelessly on his behalf.

Jagtar’s family also very quickly got in touch with their MP. I raised his case immediately in a point of order, and then at Foreign Office questions, when the then Minister stated at the Dispatch Box that the UK Government

“take extreme action if a British citizen is being tortured.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2017; Vol. 631, c. 858.]

I and the family were surprised to hear those words at the time, and they seem increasingly like a cruel joke for Jagtar and those close to him. On one level, we were fortunate that there was the initial publicity in the case and that the Minister’s words at least made the case something of a priority. Not every UK citizen—full UK national—detained will be able to say the same. As time has gone on and I have heard more about the plight of those in similar positions, as has been spoken about today, the more I have seen the gap between the expectations of families and what the FCDO can deliver.

I should say something about the consular prisons team before I take their superiors to task. Along with the staff at post in Delhi, who have made great efforts to visit Jagtar—bringing news from home and taking notes from his family to him—the team in King Charles Street have really done its utmost to keep up very good communications with the family, even with the political aspects of the case being uncertain or, indeed, negative. The professionalism that they have shown has been greatly appreciated by me and the family, and their ability to go above and beyond, putting in long hours in the offices at the top corner of KCS, never quite knowing when another crisis may strike, is to be commended. So why do they remain so deprived of the resources to do a job that is very much the bare minimum that UK citizens should expect from their Government?

Whenever I sit in on these debates, I hear the same list of grievances. I hear kind words from the Front Bench, but we continue to see the de-prioritisation of consular budgets. I reference at this point the excellent report published by the all-party parliamentary group on deaths abroad, consular services and assistance, led by my very good friend, my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell). It is an APPG set up in the wake of a similar realisation to the one that I have described with my constituent.

The report is a testament to the work that the APPG did in giving those families a voice. It is full of excellent recommendations to ensure that the importance of consular services is recognised and informed by the lived experience of those families, in an attempt to ensure that their trauma in such situations is recognised. Consular services should have a much clearer identity within the FCDO, and the obligations it has towards UK citizens should be stated in a much clearer manner. One thing that I also hope that approach would achieve is helping families navigate what can be quite an intimidating bureaucracy.

Despite the initial statements about an extreme reaction, we now appear to be getting ready to announce the UK-India free trade agreement—quite a statement of priorities from a succession of Governments. I know that I need to come to a conclusion.

[Hannah Bardell]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

Very quickly—I am conscious of time.

[Rushanara Ali (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentlemen should wind up.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I could talk for three hours about this subject, which is very close to my heart and my constituents. I will sum up by referring to those words on the passport—and I hope the Minister takes note. This Government, and the one that is about to replace it, need to do much more to ensure that holders of that document receive

“such assistance and protection as may be necessary.”

That means funding consular services properly. To lead is to choose, and, frankly, they have chosen badly.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs (Leo Docherty)]

It is a great pleasure to be here today, Ms Ali. I am here in the place of the Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan). She has responsibility for consular policy, but she is travelling; I am very pleased to be here in her place. I am grateful to the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Ms Rimmer) for securing the debate and for the passionate contributions of other colleagues across the Chamber.

I will set out some general principles of our consular and detention policy before covering some of the specific questions asked about individual cases. Consular assistance to British nationals abroad remains at the heart of our work at the FCDO. Our trained staff are contactable 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and they offer empathetic and professional support tailored to each individual case. They have a huge case load—some 20,000 to 30,000 cases annually—and we continue to review and improve the service that they offer; we always welcome feedback on how it can be improved.

Consular staff help about 3,000 British nationals who have been arrested or detained abroad each year, and their welfare and human rights are our top priorities. Consular officials are contactable 24/7, including if a British national is detained, and our support can include seeking consular access and providing relevant information to detainees. We can also raise specific consular cases with foreign authorities and support the families of those detained. Of course, this is considered on a case-by-case basis. I should like to be very clear that we thank our consular staff for the tremendous work that they continue to do.

As a general principle, we are guided by international law and the Vienna convention on consular relations. Our ability to offer support in a particular country is of course constrained by the laws and practice of that country. In detention cases, the detaining authority has jurisdiction and control over detained British nationals, and the British Government may not interfere in the foreign legal process. But we can and do intervene when British nationals are not treated in line with international standards or where there are unreasonable delays in proceedings. Of course, there are a number of areas where, sadly, consular staff cannot help. We cannot offer or pay for legal services, pay outstanding fines or ask for British citizens to receive preferential treatment on the basis of their nationality.

We do provide tailored support to detainees who raise allegations of torture or mistreatment—something that we take incredibly seriously. Although we cannot investigate such allegations ourselves, we will, with the detainee’s permission, raise our concerns with the local authorities and request an investigation. Last year, the FCDO received 133 new allegations of torture or mistreatment from British nationals overseas. Each year, we conduct a review of all such cases to identify trends and develop strategies to engage with relevant countries.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

Can the Minister confirm that that includes the accusation of torture in relation to my constituent Jagtar Singh Johal, who is in the Indian Republic?

[Leo Docherty]

Yes, indeed—we consider all these cases. If I may, I will come on to that case, because the hon. Gentleman has been a champion of it. Let me assure him—I am sure he knows this—the Government have raised concerns about Mr Johal’s case with the Government of India, including allegations of torture and his right to a fair trial, on over 100 occasions, and we will continue to do so. We take the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention’s opinion in this case very seriously. We have consistently raised concerns about Mr Johal directly with the Indian authorities and we will continue to do so, as I say. Having carefully considered the potential benefits and risks to Mr Johal of calling for his release, as well as the likely effectiveness of doing so, we do not believe this course of action would be in his best interests. But as I say, we will continue to raise his case with the Government of India.

Let me turn now to two cases mentioned by the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) and the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston. The first is the case of Morad Tahbaz in Iran. We are pleased to see that British national Morad Tahbaz has been released on furlough. That is a first step, and we remain focused on his permanent release. Of course, the UK is not party to negotiations between the US and Iran; the details of any agreement are a bilateral matter for those two countries. But we do think that his release on furlough is a positive step.

I turn now to the case of Mehran Raoof, also in Iran. We are supporting the family of Mr Raoof, who is a British-Iranian national and has been detained in Iran since 2020. Of course, his welfare remains a top priority. It remains entirely within Iran’s gift to release any British national who has been unfairly detained and so we should urge Iran to stop this practice of unfairly detaining British and other foreign nationals and urge it to release Mr Raoof.

I turn now to the case of Mr Alaa Abd El-Fattah, in Egypt. Of course, we remain committed to securing consular access for dual British-Egyptian national and human rights defender Alaa Abd El-Fattah. We continue to raise Mr El-Fattah’s case at the highest levels with the Egyptian Government. We remain committed to supporting him and his family. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary met family members on 6 February, and Lord Ahmad has met family members several times—most recently on 6 July. Our ambassador in Cairo and consular officials are in regular contact with family members and they met most recently on 5 April. Of course, we will continue to offer all the consular support that we can.

I was very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) for raising the case of his constituent Mr Saiful Chowdhury. Of course I give him my absolute assurance that we will be happy to correspond and raise this case. Perhaps we could exchange details after this debate. We look forward to corresponding on that case and we look forward to offering any support we can to Mr Chowdhury, so I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that case.

Turning to the case of Jimmy Lai, which was raised by several Members, let me be very clear that we are using our channels with the Chinese and Hong Kong authorities to raise Mr Lai’s detention and request consular access. The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, last met Mr Lai’s son and his international legal team on 24 April and officials continue to provide support. We continue to make our strong opposition to the national security law clear to the mainland Chinese and Hong Kong authorities. It is being used to curtail freedoms, punish dissent and shrink the space for opposition, free press and civil society. The Foreign Secretary raised Jimmy Lai’s detention with Chinese Vice-President Han Zheng on 5 May and in his opening statement at the 52nd session of the UN Human Rights Council on 22 February. We will continue to raise this case and others.

NATO Summit: Vilnius

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Thursday 6th July 2023 Westminster Hall

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

It is good to see you in the Chair, Mr Sharma. I thank the right hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) for bringing forward this debate ahead of next week’s summit.

As someone who spent a brief time on the NATO PA and longer on the Defence Committee, I am no stranger to these debates. The issues of the High North and the north Atlantic were a constant litany from me when I was on the Committee, which I am sure the right hon. Members for North Durham (Mr Jones) and for Warley (John Spellar) were too aware of. One issue that I constantly raised was the north Atlantic command. It sadly did not come to the UK; it went to Norfolk in the United States, but it was welcome to see that gap being filled after some substantial time.

As ever in such debates, there is an unusual amount of agreement from all sides. I hope to continue in that spirit. Any illusion we had of living on a peaceful continent has been shattered. The conference itself is an ideal moment for us to reiterate the commitment to ensuring that Ukraine specifically has whatever economic and military aid it needs, not only to repel the Russian invasion but to restore its pre-2014 boundaries. We know that one calculation that President Putin made when proceeding with his disastrous strategy was that Europe and the western allies were too divided to really care about Ukraine and its people. I am glad to say that he not only has been proven spectacularly wrong in that regard, but he has spurred such a precipitous move away from economic dependence on Russia that with each passing day he loses the ability to divide our societies in the way he once did. Just as it will be no surprise to all those here today who have heard me opine on Ukraine over the years, so it should be no surprise to those watching the debate from the Russian embassy that although there may be innumerable subjects on which this House does not unanimously agree, this is certainly not one of them.

One thing that we will be hoping to see at the summit— I hope that Members agree—is a move towards some sort of NATO membership action plan for Ukraine. Obviously, the same caveats apply as we might see elsewhere, but a direction of travel, I think, must be established. When talking about these scenarios, it is always, of course, article 5 that is given the most attention. I think that the right hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell mentioned it in his opening speech, but in Ukraine’s case we can clearly hope to proceed with aid and mutual assurance along the lines of articles 2 and 3. Article 2 refers to

“the further development of peaceful and friendly international relations by strengthening their free institutions, by bringing about a better understanding of the principles upon which these institutions are founded, and by promoting conditions of stability and well-being.”

Article 3 states that

“the Parties, separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid, will maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack.”

We are moving well along the track of article 3 without necessarily acknowledging it, but we will not achieve anything if we do not ensure that Ukrainian civil society and the country’s institutions receive just as much attention as the deliveries of Storm Shadow missiles. I hope, therefore, that last month’s conference here in this city will become an annual event even after Crimea is liberated from the clutches of Vladimir Putin.

Part of the strengthening of free institutions among our NATO allies is of course the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. I am glad that it is getting the recognition that it deserves in the debate today. Multilateral institutions like NATO can often be disparaged; I think that the right hon. Member for Warley alluded to that. They can be disparaged as “parasitic or pointless”, to quote Anne Applebaum’s excellent profile of the Secretary-General, Jens Stoltenberg, in the latest edition of The Atlantic magazine. What the Parliamentary Assembly does is bring the democracies that constitute the alliance, however messy and imperfect they may be, to the leading edge of what makes NATO important and of its strength. I think that, far from its democratic nature being a drag, events such as the invasion have demonstrated how, although autocracies may notionally be able to move quicker, NATO is, to quote Applebaum’s article again, one of the

“force multipliers that function better than the autocracies run by strongmen.”

This is because when NATO and similar multilateral institutions make a decision, they tend to stick to it. The other democratic aspect of NATO that we often overlook is the fact that it is a consensus organisation: Iceland and the recent member, Montenegro, have as much say on the North Atlantic Council as the United States or, indeed, the UK.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

I note that the hon. Gentleman said that he was previously a member of the Parliamentary Assembly. I am one of the newest members, but I want to pick up on what he is saying about the leadership. The UK leadership of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) is absolutely outstanding. We also have other members who are very experienced and people who have been Members of both Houses, such as Lord Campbell and Lord Anderson of Swansea. That makes for the extremely important soft power role that we have, and I think that the consensus is very much down to the leadership of all those members.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I certainly agree with the right hon. Member. I will not disagree—especially about the right hon. Member for North Durham, because he is sitting behind me.

[Valerie Vaz]

There is also Lord Hamilton. I have just been corrected by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar).

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I will not disagree with that either. I may not be a fan of the way in which the other House is appointed, but I know that Members there certainly have a role in the parliamentary process.

As I was saying, Iceland and Montenegro have as much say in the North Atlantic Council as the United States or the UK—this is where I might disagree with some Members, because whenever I hear committed Brexiteers waxing lyrical about NATO membership, I am always tempted to ask if they would not prefer to have the qualified majority voting of the EU. The consensus approach makes the choice of a Secretary-General so fraught and unpredictable, which is why someone who has proven to be such a reliable leader of the alliance will continue to be the best choice going forward.

I am of course biased in favour of a social democratic politician from an unequivocally non-nuclear northern European state who can lead NATO with such understated authority. That is precisely the sort of multilateralism that my party and I like to see. We are not alone, however. The Secretary-General is expected to be confirmed in post for at least another year.

I will take a brief moment to break from the consensus, in particular on the recent speculation about the Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. and gallant Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace), being put forward for the Secretary-General role—I have ensured that he knows I am naming him, albeit in a good fashion. Being someone who has come up against him and his predecessors at first hand, I can certainly say that the Secretary of State stands head and shoulders above them as a man who has not shrunk from the myriad challenges in his Department. Although I may not have always agreed with him, he has played mainly with a straight bat when dealing with Parliament and with No. 10, who I am sure do not consider him to be one of the nodding dogs that they prefer to fill the Cabinet with.

As we were reminded just last week, the Secretary of State is the most popular Cabinet Minister among the Tory rank and file, a man who had to fend off nominations to be Prime Minister. Anyone behind a campaign that had between zero and heehaw’s chance in succeeding deserves a court martial at the very least. That is not because the Secretary of State is unsuitable—not at all—but because this is a critical moment for the issue of NATO and the EU, and there is no chance that a UK candidate could hope to succeed at this time. That is important to the overall debate about the role of the Assembly.

I read the Telegraph’s so-called exclusive this week that the White House would prefer to have the President of the European Commission succeed Secretary-General Stoltenberg, but it was hardly the shock that some people think, especially given the current US presidential Administration. I therefore make one slightly discordant plea not to put us through this every year: states that cannot—some would say—unequivocally support the twin pillars of European-Atlantic security will never find consensus behind them.

Before I get accused of being simply a petty Scottish nationalist, I have to say that that is a fact that not only the UK, but France and Germany may have to get used to as well. In various ways, each of the largest European states has demonstrated that in different ways, but they cannot rely on the weight of the past, especially with both the EU and NATO having expanded so much. In this debate, we have inevitably focused on UK contributions to Ukraine, but often it has been the countries of central and eastern Europe that have done the heaviest lifting, not least Estonia, which has spent the largest amount of per capita GDP on bilateral aid. Let me declare a non-pecuniary interest as the co-chair of the all-party group on Estonia.

We in the Scottish National party believe—as do the Government of Ukraine—that the two pillars of European security are NATO and, for us at least, the EU. I am afraid that I am the only person who is able to be so unequivocal in my summing-up speech, although having to state that is pretty incredible. Let us wish, too, for tangible progress on the future of Ukrainian membership, along with a reiteration of the fact that our support for Ukraine will last longer than the Russian invasion with its heavy losses can—the Russians will continue to experience those until they leave Ukraine.

Ugandan School Attack

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

On the right hon. Gentleman’s last point, as I said, the Ugandan commander-in-chief of land forces has been there, and the Ugandan army is pursuing the perpetrators. The right hon. Gentleman added very eloquently to the statement and comments of our hon. Friend the Member for Strangford, and I very much agree with what he says. On how the British development budget is spent, we spend a great deal of time and taxpayers’ money on trying to stop conflicts from starting, stopping them once they have started, and reconciling people once they are over. That is the aspect of the budget to which he was referring, and I think it is very effective and gives very good value to the British taxpayer.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on tabling this urgent question on a topic that I know he is passionate about. We learned from Michela Wrong’s excellent article in a recent issue of Foreign Affairs how the M23 paramilitary organisation, which is actively destabilising areas of both the DRC and Uganda, has been given direct economic and military aid supported by the Rwandan Government in a deliberate strategy of President Paul Kagame, similar to that which they abandoned under pressure in 2012. Given the leverage that this Government now have with that regime, what assurances has the Minister—who I believe is an admirer of President Kagame—sought from the Rwandan Government that they will respect the sovereignty of their neighbours in the region, lest we provoke a wider humanitarian crisis in the great lakes?

[Mr Mitchell]

I expect to see the Foreign Minister of Rwanda within the next 24 hours, and I will say to him what we say to all of those who are engaged in fighting, profiteering or causing human misery in the eastern DRC: that we urge everyone to be part of the Nairobi and, indeed, the Luanda peace processes. We urge everyone to lay down their weapons and allow a peace process, which can also ensure that humanitarian aid reaches people who desperately need it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Tuesday 13th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

That question would probably be aimed more accurately at the Home Office, but I will of course raise it with colleagues across Government.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

Last week’s revelation from Canada’s national security adviser that the republic of India was among the most active sources of foreign interference in that country—along with China, Russia and Iran—is deeply concerning. Does the Minister know whether the Department has taken soundings from our treaty ally and fellow Five Eyes member regarding India’s activities abroad, particularly its surveillance of not only Sikh activists but Members of this House in relation to the ongoing detention of my constituent Jagtar Singh Johal?

[James Cleverly]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have met his constituent’s family, and we continue to raise this case with the Indian authorities. I regularly meet my Canadian counterpart, who has not raised directly with me the specific concerns raised by the hon. Gentleman.

Draft International Criminal Police Organisation (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2023

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 17th May 2023 General Committees

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

It is good to see you in the Chair, Mr Davies. Like the official Opposition, we will not oppose the motion, but I have a few questions; I am sure that the Minister would be surprised if I did not. Also like the official Opposition, I welcome the idea of the general assembly being held here in the UK. Nevertheless, I have a few concerns as we have been moving out of Europol into Interpol. Perhaps the Minister could clarify our relationship with Europol, notably our access to the Schengen Information System. My belief is that that will be ending, or has ended. We need clarification on that.

Police services across the whole UK, not just in Scotland, are concerned about no longer having access to real-time or immediate alerts from the European Union Europol system. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that. The general point raises a constituency issue for me. If there is not that kind of bilateral relationship, and therefore quicker transfer, arrest and extradition of prisoners, that brings me to a case mentioned on the Floor of the House only the other day during Justice questions: that of Dean Woods, who escaped from Her Majesty’s Prison—as it was at the time—Sudbury last year in Derbyshire. He was sentenced to 12 years for his role in an £8 million cocaine ring in February 2020.

The Minister may wonder why I am raising that specific case, which is a matter of public record. There is every possibility that Mr Woods is no longer in the United Kingdom, because he was also arrested for the possible murder of my constituent Lisa Brown. If Mr Woods has absconded to Spain, what is the difference now that we are no longer in Europol and rely on the Interpol system to bring about his arrest or possible return to the United Kingdom? That is a real question for real people, and has a profound impact on the judicial system across the whole of the UK and Northern Ireland. We are looking for clarity from the Minister on how this type of system embeds and builds on what was a perfectly decent system through Europol. We will not oppose the motion, but these are real matters that impact at least my constituents, and they are looking for some answers.

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan]

On the specific questions around Europol and Home Office-specific cases, I will ask my colleagues at the Home Office to reply to the hon. Gentleman more fully because I am not briefed on the detail and I would not want to give an incorrect response. This statutory instrument is specifically about bringing an international organisation into the purview of our International Organisations Act.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I appreciate that the Minister may not have the specifics, but the SI relates to the replacement of the previous Europol system with Interpol. She must be aware that that makes substantial changes to how we engage with our European partners.

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan]

Interpol is the international network, working together across all parts of the world. The SI will allow it to hold its annual general assembly here in the UK next year, and we are pleased and proud to be hosting it.

The hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green raised an important question about the privileges and immunities that will come from the SI for representatives of countries such as Russia or China. They will be entitled to send representatives. All 195 members of Interpol receive an invitation to every general assembly, and the UK is required to honour those invitations. Ministers have considered that aspect and the associated risks very closely, and I highlight that, other than for the secretary general, the diplomatic immunity provisions are very small for the wider cohort and relate only to official activities going on while those delegates are here in the UK for the general assembly. Otherwise, they remain normal citizens.