Poultry Industry

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Tuesday 20th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes a strong point and I hope to touch on those issues later.

I am sure the House will join me in recognising the importance of this sector to rural constituencies such as mine, but also the national contribution that the poultry industry makes. It is consequently of concern that as the TTIP negotiations progress, a number of serious risks to the UK poultry meat sector are emerging. Those risks are rooted in the different standards of poultry production on the two sides of the Atlantic. Let us be clear: the standards in areas such as sustainability, food hygiene and antibiotic usage differ greatly between the UK and US.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Will my hon. Friend add to that list the issue of animal traceability and the difference between standards in the US and Europe? There has been a lot of concern about that in this country in recent years. I fear that that will be exacerbated by the discussions on this agreement.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Traceability, although good in the United Kingdom, is challenged by things such as the horsemeat scandal. I am sure that traceability in the US is not up to the standards that we enjoy here.

Let me give the House some examples of the difference between the UK and the US. UK poultry producers have made very significant strides in the reduction of environmental pollution from both farms and food processing plants. The reduction of ammonia emissions is a key priority, and British poultry producers have worked closely with the Environment Agency to develop techniques that lead to meaningful reductions in discharges.

In the UK, as across the whole of Europe, the poultry industry takes a “farm to fork” approach to food hygiene. Producers meticulously introduce improvements all along the chain to biosecurity, transport and processing, and do not rely on chemicals at the end of the process to do the same job. The UK poultry industry takes very seriously its responsibilities for antibiotic stewardship. The British Poultry Council is an active member of the Responsible Use of Medicines in Agriculture Alliance and is pro-actively seeking to minimise antibiotic use.

For example, the British poultry meat industry has voluntarily stopped the use in the breeding pyramid of certain categories of antibiotics, such as cephalosporins, that are considered to be crucial to human medicine. The British poultry industry does not support the habitual use of antibiotics where the underlying issue can be resolved through better husbandry.

Finally, the British poultry sector is committed to training and developing its work force, with an active programme of apprenticeships, qualifications and academic scholarships to improve the skills base of the industry.

All these factors, and others that I have not mentioned, add up to a very substantial difference in how the UK and US produce poultry meat, to the extent that the two systems have very little in common, and therefore the bird for the table at the end of the process should not be considered comparable. That has become very important, given the prospect of free trade in poultry meat across the Atlantic.

One of the principles of the TTIP negotiations is that of equivalence. In short, the agreement allows the US and the EU to agree that different practices are, for the purposes of trade, deemed to be equivalent. I hope the House will support me in concluding that poultry meat production methods in the US are by no means equivalent to those in the UK, and that the prospect of potential equivalence under TTIP for poultry meat production causes tremendous concern.

Furthermore, it is clear from its public statements that the US chicken industry is intent on using the TTIP process to lever open EU, including UK, markets for its products. The risk to the UK poultry industry is therefore clear. The US industry wishes to export its products, produced to standards that are not equivalent to ours, into the UK market. TTIP risks providing it with the vehicle to do so. Any such exports will threaten the continued volume of production of poultry in the UK, with a knock-on impact on jobs, receipts for the Treasury and UK food security.

Egg producers are also very concerned about competition from US producers. UK producers have followed the improvements in animal welfare introduced by European regulations, which they estimate have added 15% to their costs. Those include a change from a conventional battery cage industry to now using enriched cages. Stocking rates in the US are between 350 and 400 sq cm per bird, while in the UK the rate is 750 sq cm per bird, and there has been a great move to free-range egg production in the UK. Added costs from environmental, food safety and animal welfare improvements have cost the industry dear. Egg producers are very concerned about egg products—such as egg powder, which is used in confectionery and other products—being exported to this country below the cost of production. Egg producers wish their products to be considered as sensitive in the negotiations, and it is important not to export our egg sector to other countries because we need to look after our food security in the UK.

So, what do I want the Government to do about it? I believe there are three areas where the Government can play a crucial role in ensuring that the TTIP negotiations have a workable outcome for the UK poultry meat sector and egg industry. In the first instance, the Government should send a clear message to the European Commission and the US that we do not regard the current US poultry meat production practices as being equivalent to those in the UK. If the US wishes to export to the EU, it will have to show willing in modifying its processes to meet the needs of EU Governments and consumers. Secondly, the Government should be reinforcing to the Commission the importance of negotiating on poultry meat on its merits, and standing up for this important UK and EU industry. The US side wants to export to the EU, and it is up to the US to convince us of how that can work and meet our needs, rather than its being up to the EU negotiators to make it easy for the US.

Finally, I hope that the Government will make it clear to the US that free trade is a two-way street. This is not just about the export of chicken from the US to the EU; it must also be about the real opportunities for UK poultry producers to export in significant volumes to the US.

Ultimately, TTIP represents a huge potential opportunity for both the EU and the UK, but just as with other sectors of the economy, we should be very wary and make sure that the drive to grow trade does not come at the expense of the huge strides that both the EU and the UK have made in their standards of food production. The UK poultry industry is a big contributor to the economy, especially in vulnerable rural areas, and it would be a tragedy if TTIP caused damage to it.

May I thank the House for listening to me on this important issue for my constituents and the UK as a whole? I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

Government Policies (Wales)

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Williams]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will not give way because I want to crack on in the little time I have.

I want to talk about fuel duty as it affects drivers. My constituents have no choice about driving their cars. Some of them live in Lampeter and work in Aberystwyth —a 60-mile round journey every day. They do not have the luxury of public transport and taxis are unaffordable. I commend the Government’s actions on the fuel duty escalator, which have meant a 20p per litre reduction over the last five years. But in the very rural communities in Wales, we were hugely disappointed that the policy of derogation from Europe on fuel duty was not carried out across the whole of the country—in fact, no areas in Wales will benefit. The Government need to continue to work on that so that that policy is not isolated to various parts of the Scottish highlands.

As I have said, Ceredigion has 600 family farms, and the farmers are concerned about falls in commodity prices and about common agricultural policy reform, and many other businesses have other concerns. They are the backbone of our economy, and they have commended the Government on the reduction in corporation tax. Some 35,000 businesses across Wales will also benefit from the scheme that will allow employers to reduce national insurance contributions by £2,000. That is important to local businesses, as is the work that the Government are doing to build the infrastructure for broadband and mobile phone reception, which the Secretary of State mentioned. The Government could do more. For example, next week they could reduce VAT on tourism—

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech about the issues in rural areas. Does he agree that the Welsh Assembly Government do not recognise the expense of delivering services in rural areas? Powys and Ceredigion had the lowest allocation of grant of any of the Welsh local authorities.

[Mr Williams]

My hon. Friend is right. Ceredigion county council has the worst settlement of anywhere in Wales with a reduction of 4.5%, and Powys is not far behind with 4.3%. There is a perception that those of us who work and live in mid-Wales have been penalised in favour of the beneficiaries in the north Wales corridor and the south Wales corridor, although my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) may disagree.

A VAT reduction on tourism would be a huge benefit to many businesses across the UK. It would give a boost to an important sector of the economy in west Wales. I saw an excellent project in Cardigan castle in my constituency a couple of weeks ago. It involved apprenticeships from Cyfle, an organisation that covers Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion and Swansea. It has an innovative scheme in which apprentices are given experiences not just in one company, but in several, so that they can really build up their CVs.

I will not dwell on the issue of Europe, because the Secretary of State had a few exchanges on that subject, other than to say that although west Wales and the valleys are celebrating the fact that many of our communities will benefit from convergence funding, in some ways that is actually a sad indictment of the failure to build our economy.

I voted against the bedroom tax at the start and I am against it in principle now. I am against it because it will never work in rural areas where there is no housing for people to move to, even if it were the role of Government to encourage people to move. That was the wrong principle from which to start, and I agree with the many constituents of mine who have serious anxieties about the application of a policy that could never work. It will cost the country money and cause huge hardship for many of my constituents.

Wales Bill

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Many tributes have been paid to my constituent, Mr Paul Silk. It is extraordinary that because of the quality of the work that he and his fellow commissioners did, the Bill has gone through relatively easily, even with a few minor amendments.

[Mr Mark Williams]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend. Paul Silk has done the politics of consensus a great service. The commissioners, from all four parties, sometimes had to make compromises but arrived at an agreed report on two occasions. That is a mark of Paul Silk’s chairmanship and the quality of those commissioners.

Of course, my right hon. Friend is a Conservative Secretary of State—

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend is completely right. The regulation and specification for energy efficiency in new houses today is to be welcomed. Some of us believe that a higher degree of that could have been aspired to.

The Energy Bill Revolution is calling for the revenues from two carbon taxes—the EU emissions trading scheme and the carbon price floor—to be invested in a massive energy efficiency programme that would eliminate the scourge of fuel poverty once and for all. Compared with much of Europe, the UK has a bigger fuel poverty problem because of our poor quality housing.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that that is a particular problem in the area he represents and in my neighbouring constituency? It is about the age of the housing stock coupled with the problem, as a rural area, of the absence of any gas provision. It is a case of lacking alternatives, as well as older housing stock.

Interest Rate Swap Derivatives

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Thursday 24th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). Like many hon. Members, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), who has shown immense leadership and tenacity on this case—not just in this debate, but more generally.

If any of us had thought that the constituency surgery meetings that we have held on this issue were unique, the turnout for the debate has illustrated the enormity of the problem. We should repeat, repeat and repeat again the point made by the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel): of the 30,000 cases, only 32 have been redressed.

I was going to talk about the inadequacies of the redress scheme, welcome though was its initiation and the progress that has been made, but time will limit what I can say about that. However, I will talk later about the fundamental omission of tailored business loans, which was alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy.

My hon. Friend mentioned a constituent of mine, Mr Mansel Beechey of the Llew Du hostelry in Aberystwyth. I think that my hon. Friend has spent a bit more time in that particular pub than I have over the years. Mansel Beechey and many small business owners like him have been the backbone of the Ceredigion economy, but there have been times when I have thought that we were being targeted. The number of tourism and agricultural businesses that have come to me about these issues has been frightening. Bully-Banks helped us by putting an advert in the local newspaper about the scandal and many more cases came to light.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern that there are yet more small businesses out there who are ashamed to come forward and say that they have entered into such products because they think that it is their fault, rather than that of the banks?

[Mr Mark Williams]

We need to knock that on the head immediately, because there has been a concerted effort by the banks to target certain businesses. There is no need for people to be ashamed, and my hon. Friend is right that many more cases are coming to light.

Huw and Jackie Roberts of Minhafan Estates, a property development business in Aberystwyth, are in the midst of the review. They went through the “fact find” interview stage of the review six months ago and are still waiting to hear from the bank or the FCA.

I want to talk about the inadequacy and even dishonesty of the subject access requests. A sheep farmer who came to see me obtained his subject access request from Barclays, but it included presentation documents that he was alleged to have been shown at the time of sale, which he had never seen before. History can be rewritten. The fear is that, in some of these cases, history is being rewritten by the banks.

Why is the FCA advising customers that the scheme

“can deliver fair and reasonable redress without them needing to hire lawyers”?

Many of my constituents are on the brink and cannot afford to hire a lawyer, but why is the FCA saying that?

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, I want to talk about alternative products. What is wrong with this form of so-called redress is that the banks get to propose what would have happened if they had behaved better. Despite the banks admitting that they have breached regulatory requirements, they are being given a second chance through the promotion of alternative products, so they have a second bite of the proverbial cherry.

Yesterday, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy said that the cost of the review was £200 million, and he then told us that it had gone up to £450 million. Despite it costing £450 million to set up the review, only £2 million has been paid out in redress.

Legal Aid (Rural Wales)

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Williams]

The hon. Lady pre-empts another of my later remarks. The relationship between solicitors and those repeat offenders is critical, and we risk losing that.

It is asserted that there would be four providers across the whole of Dyfed Powys. There would be real access issues, and are the proposed consortia feasible? As we have heard from hon. Members, the proposals plan to have four providers across the whole of Dyfed Powys, four across the whole of north Wales—sorry, I correct myself—and four in Gwent and nine across the whole of south Wales. By contrast, 37 contracts are planned for Greater Manchester, which has a similar population to south Wales. Again, will the Ministry of Justice, and the Whip speaking for the Ministry today, outline how that was calculated? How was rurality factored in? Although my hon. Friends from south Wales and the M4 corridor will have strong feelings about the provision of access there, for those of us who work, live and function in mid-Wales and north Wales, the picture is disastrous. We lose out yet again, and we are put at a real disadvantage compared with other people across the country.

My next concern is that competitive tendering at 17.5% less will drive solicitors out of business. The competitive tendering proposed for contracts remains a major cause for concern. It will simply drive solicitors out of business. Those remaining will be firms that are willing to cut costs, possibly to unworkable levels. That would lead to tenders being awarded to less able and potentially less experienced firms, which may find themselves unable to deliver on the prices promised to secure the tender. I am clear in my mind where I would like to go if I needed legal advice. However, there is the spectacle of Eddie Stobart or Tesco providing the service. The Co-op has been mentioned recently, and I am a great supporter of the Co-op. It is an admirable place to go to buy food and it has a fine record of burying people—the Co-op funeral service is very good—but we should not be using such examples to justify changes to the legal system.

I am greatly concerned about the capacity of companies such as Capita, GEOAmey, Serco and G4S—and whether they are best placed to represent my constituents. My colleague in another place, Lord Thomas of Gresford alerted us in a Queen’s Speech contribution to Stobart Barristers—an offshoot of Eddie Stobart trucks. Lord Thomas noted that the Stobart Barristers legal director, Trevor Howarth, had confirmed that the firm would bid for the new criminal defence contracts and had said:

“We can deliver the service at a cost that’s palatable for the taxpayer… Our business model was developed with this in mind. We at Stobart are well known for taking out the waste and the waste here is the duplication of solicitors going to the courtroom. At the moment there are 1,600 legal aid firms; in future there will be 400. At Stobart, we wouldn’t use 10 trucks to deliver one product”.

As my noble Friend concluded, the problem with that is that criminal law is not a unit and justice is not a product that can be delivered like a load of bricks. That is the contrast in terms of what we are facing. There is a real fear that many of our high street solicitors will be lost; many will go out of business. The firms with the most cut-throat prices and cut-throat tactics will be the most successful, but I believe that liberty should be in the hands of the best, not the cheapest.

I come now to the loss of specialisms.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

My hon. Friend is making many very good points, but surely one of them is that the people who supply these legal services will be given a financial incentive to get their clients to plead guilty. Surely, that is a characteristic of a totalitarian state, not the liberal democracy to which we aspire.

[Mr Williams]

My hon. Friend and I agree. He uses a very emotive word to describe what I think will be the reality on the ground.

Under the proposals, a call centre will allocate a lawyer from any background—an impersonal experience in itself—who might provide a minimal service to meet the requirements of the contract. People will not be able to select a firm by reputation, by personal recommendation or, sadly, by past experience. That discourages good practice and good performance among professionals, as those who gain a contract will get clients regardless of performance. Therefore, clients will be unable to choose a firm according to the nature—sometimes, the specialised nature—of their case. I have said this before and it is worth repeating: let us not understate the importance of the relationship between solicitors and clients and the trust that has been built up.

Solicitors in my constituency are concerned that the consultation document encourages solicitors not to provide a good service—not to provide the best service. The aim is to be “above acceptable levels”. That is a worrying prospect.

There will be a lack of choice. Owing to the call centre allocation of solicitors, clients will be left with no choice of representation. They may have a lawyer who does not know them or the area in which they live and who certainly does not know the background to their case. As the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said, a different company could represent them at different stages. I think that that is bad.

The consultation document suggests that the same fee will be paid—this is the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams)—whether or not the matter is contested. Those firms that are awarded contracts will have a financial incentive to do minimal work to make their business sustainable, to the detriment of the client’s case. That could lead to a perverse incentive for legal advisers to recommend that clients plead guilty, as they would receive the same fee regardless of plea—a conclusion that certainly the solicitors whom I have spoken to are concerned about. They believe that suspicion may be created between client and lawyer.

I want to end where I started, with the effects on language. When we are talking about the consultation, there remain serious issues surrounding the provision of language services. I have anecdotal evidence that the large firm Capita is regularly unable to provide interpreting services to courts in a timely manner. In my constituency, as I said, Welsh is the first language of about half the population. In many parts of Ceredigion, it is overwhelmingly the language of everyday use, so the issue to which I refer is a worry and a barrier preventing many people from accessing the representation to which they are entitled.

I want to ask the Minister and particularly those behind the scenes in the Ministry of Justice about their awareness of Wales and of the Welsh language. As the Welsh Government pointed out in their submission to the consultation, the Ministry of Justice’s own Welsh language scheme—a point that the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) mentioned—declares the Ministry’s commitment to the principle of treating the English and Welsh languages on the basis of equality. The current system of more local provision means that someone is more likely to satisfy Welsh language needs. These proposals mean that it is much more likely that a provider will be based outside the relevant area and even outside Wales, allowing no provision for Welsh language services at all.

The proposals are socially divisive, as only the wealthy will be able to afford to choose their own lawyer. Only those who can afford to will be able to determine how they are represented. Everyone else, if they are eligible for legal aid, will be allocated a lawyer via a call centre.

Some of the public narrative on the issue has characterised it as one of fat cat lawyers acting in their own interests, although if we talk to solicitors on the ground, the story is somewhat different. In reality, it is far more worrying. It is about universal access to justice, the credibility of our court and justice system and the responsibility of Parliament to ensure the continued efficacy of our justice system.

Overall, what has been billed as a simple money-saving measure will have far deeper ramifications for society. The proposals take the fundamental principle of access to justice away from anyone who cannot afford it, but it is a right, not a commodity to be bought and sold.

The Minister knows that this is a consultation, and the deliberations will go on about the various submissions. I sincerely hope that it is a real consultation and that the Government will look at the submissions, particularly those from us in Wales and the concerns that we have raised; and I hope that the Minister and the Ministry of Justice will therefore reflect favourably on the needs of rural Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Wednesday 15th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

8. What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues and others on increasing the accessibility of educational institutions in Wales to students from overseas.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

10. What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues and others on increasing the accessibility of educational institutions in Wales to students from overseas.

Common Agricultural Policy Reform

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams]

I agree. The direct payment protects the farmer from various things, including volatile commodity prices and poor and problematic weather conditions, which have a huge effect on profitability. Without the direct payment, many farmers would not be able to continue in business.

I, along with organisations such as the Country Land and Business Association, fear that modulation of this kind could undermine the ability of UK farmers to compete. I note the findings of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee “Greening the CAP” report. It stated:

“The competitiveness of UK farmers will be reduced if they are exposed to higher modulation rates than their European counterparts. We therefore recommend that Defra does not set modulation rates higher than other Member States that receive similar single farm payment rates.”

In terms of rural development, or pillar two, the UK receives the lowest per hectare allocation of funds because of the rebate the Government receive from Europe. A further reduction could turn farmers away from all the good they are doing in developing wildlife under the existing pillar two. The Government must make sure that as much positive management for wildlife as possible continues as we approach the 2020 deadline for improvements in biodiversity. Pillar two has delivered real improvements for the environment; the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds receives £5 million from the CAP, for instance.

For a number of agricultural sectors, direct payments make up the majority of farm income, yet under EU rules farmers cannot receive payments for undertaking environmental work. They can be paid compensation only for the losses and costs incurred as a result of that environmental work. I believe there should be a system that genuinely rewards farmers for undertaking environmental work, and I am sure the Minister agrees. A deal must be done under the Irish presidency, thereby allowing for a period of transition in which farmers can make informed business decisions before the policy takes effect.

The British and European public have great expectations for CAP reform. They expect farmers across Europe to provide quality food and increase food security, and to increase exports within the EU and further afield. They also require our farmers to be sustainable and to deliver public goods such as biodiversity, landscaping, water purity and granting greater access to farmland. These two goals can be achieved only if agriculture is profitable and successful. Farmers cannot, however, be expected to commit their lives to such a role within the sector without receiving sufficient support and investment. It is therefore essential to have a single farm payment that is set at a level that allows farmers to remain profitable and deal with the challenges they face.

Recently, the single farm payment accounted for 80% of the total profitability of English agriculture, and in this financial year it will probably account for even more. The profitability of English agriculture is therefore clearly closely linked to the income from the single farm payment.

The challenges facing farmers vary widely. Globally, prices for commodities remain volatile, and the dairy industry has seen some of the lowest prices for milk in recent times. High input costs such as for fuel, fertiliser, feed and chemicals are hitting farmers across all sectors, too. We also face increasingly inconsistent weather, which has resulted in the lowest wheat yields since the 1980s, while dairy farmers have had to keep cattle indoors and revert to winter feeding early, all at extra cost. These effects are felt globally as well as here in the UK; the United States has experienced its worst drought in 56 years, for instance, leading to poor yields and crop abandonment in some areas.

I also want to make the case for extra support for hill farmers. They find it difficult to compete with people farming more advantageous areas. The CAP does not give specific support for hill farming.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. The point about hill farmers leads me back to one of his original questions about the voice of regional government and national Government in the final regulations. Is he satisfied that the voice of Wales—in particular Welsh hill farmers—is being acknowledged in those negotiations and discussions?

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend points to a significant problem and I am not convinced at the moment that the future of hill farmers in Wales, England and the other devolved nations is secure. Will the Minister say what negotiations are taking place on behalf of the hill farming community? I do not seek to maintain the absolute level for CAP expenditure and it is far more important that British farmers are treated fairly and equitably. We operate in a single market in Europe and whatever settlement is finally reached, the terms and conditions applied to our farmers—whether the transfer to pillar two or the greening rules—must not put us at a disadvantage with our major competitors.

English farmers have already undergone substantial and radical reform through the full decoupling of direct support payments, the cutting of farm payments at national level, and the progressive move towards an area-based payments system. The combination of those policy decisions, all taken at national level by previous DEFRA Ministers, means that this year a dairy farmer in the Netherlands will receive a payment that is 91% higher than that received by an English dairy farmer. The reform should seek to narrow the gap in support levels compared with our competitors, and it certainly should not make it any worse.

I thank the Minister for listening and appreciate the size of the challenge faced by him and his ministerial team.

Rural Communities

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Tuesday 17th April 2012 Westminster Hall

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

It is a great pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing the debate. I have fond memories of his constituency. Back in 1999, I stood in the first Assembly elections and managed to come fifth. The good people of his constituency were not ready for me then, but I enjoyed the experience and the fantastic countryside there.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire has made the topic of this conversation deliberately wide, and Members have taken advantage of that. I want to mention one or two issues that perhaps have not been covered. First, I congratulate the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on its determined efforts to eradicate bovine TB in this country, which I know are appreciated by the farming people here. They do not bear comparison, however, with what is happening in Wales, where the farmers are almost despairing about what can be done to alleviate their problems.

I want to talk a little about financial services in rural areas. I have recently had the honour of introducing two debates in this Chamber on the closure of banks in rural areas, which is an important issue because rural communities want to attract not only tourists but businesses, and without banking facilities that can be difficult. I think that not just in rural areas or in Wales but more widely, the relationship between small businesses and banks has never been at a lower ebb.

[Mr Mark Williams]

Will my hon. Friend also reflect on the banks’ usual retort when asked about the diminishing number of branches, which is that online banking is a growing occurrence? In some parts of our constituencies that is not a reality because we have no broadband at all, let alone the superfast type.

[Roger Williams]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and it is not only the absence of broadband. Sometimes, older people do not have the facility or the aptitude to take advantage of online banking, so we still need the face-to-face presence and advice that bank customers greatly value.

The issue also goes a little further. Today, I was sad to see that the number of complaints about banks made by small businesses to the Financial Ombudsman Service has gone up by 10% in the past year. It is only very small businesses that can use the ombudsman facility, so we have a number of such businesses being badly treated by their banks. For instance, not only are overdraft or loan requests turned down but the terms and conditions of such facilities are changed midway through. The Government once again need to sit down with the banks and say, “If we are all in this together and we are going for growth, you have to play your part.”

I think that the Government sometimes do not really understand the structure of business in this country. Whenever they trumpet support for business they talk about reducing corporation tax. That is much valued, but out of the nearly 4 million businesses in England only one third are incorporated, so the other two thirds will not benefit from the reduction in the tax, and the £100,000 reduction in capital allowances will particularly weigh on businesses that pay their tax through self-assessment—sole traders and partners.

On the role of independent filling stations, one operator in Sennybridge in my constituency has brought me evidence that the wholesale operation of the petrol supply chain is concentrated in a small number of hands, which could lead to difficulties with competition and access. He has sent information to the Office of Fair Trading, and I will send a copy to the Minister. This is a dangerous situation. Many of our independent filling stations have already closed, and if the process continues, a lot more could do so.

I am looking at the time, Mr Hood. The clock says that I have spoken for 11 minutes already, so I am not sure how much longer I have.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams]

I absolutely accept that and am sure that he would accept that Labour had the full support of the Liberal Democrats, including those in Wales. Indeed, my predecessor, Richard Livsey—sadly, deceased—played an important part in that and, I am sure, would have liked to play a part in the Silk commission, too.

That is not to say that the Secretary of State’s work is over; many other things need to be done for Wales, including nurturing and supporting the devolution settlement. I look forward to working closely with her in the near future.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend take some assurance, as I do, from the Secretary of State’s words on timetables? When questioned by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), she set out a range of timetabling scenarios, which was a relief to many of us. There is a hope and expectation that that can be achieved before the general election, but the fact that there is a timetable reassures those of us who were concerned about this being shoved into the long grass or into a cul-de-sac. The Government have proposed that as a real commitment.

[Roger Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which brings me to a point I had intended to make later. The present coalition agreement sets out the programme for the first half of this Parliament. Work now needs to be set in hand to take forward the coalition for the second half, which will obviously include proposals for Wales. When Wales said yes to having a Welsh Assembly in 1997, the devolution package was missing one critical element. The Welsh Government have the luxury of spending money handed out by others, but unlike those in Scotland and Northern Ireland they have no power to borrow or raise money; as has been suggested, they have fewer powers than local authorities. I believe that the lack of accountability has led to some irresponsibility in the Welsh Government’s spending of money. Indeed, when the Chief Secretary to the Treasury visited Wales in April he said that the commission

“will aim to develop the financial autonomy of the Welsh Government to give Wales more opportunity to create the right environment for encouraging growth”

and jobs. I thank him for his support. As a Scottish MP, he brought knowledge of the Calman commission to the proposals, whose usefulness should not be underestimated. Welsh Liberal Democrats will engage fully and constructively in this process. We will urge the commission to bring more accountability and responsibility to the Welsh Government and to give Wales further power to drive forward economic development, creating jobs and prosperity in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roger Williams]

I am sure that if there is a split, my hon. Friend will comment on it later in the debate.

I understand that bilateral discussions will take place, but I ask for more openness and transparency in that dialogue, because other people can play an important part in that work.

We can learn lessons from the Calman commission, which concluded that the devolution settlement had established a Parliament in Scotland that could be held to account for spending choices, but that lacked accountability in raising revenue. It proposed a reduction in block grant funding from the UK Government to Scotland in exchange for power for the Scottish Parliament to raise its own taxes. The Scotland Bill implements the recommendations and creates a Scottish rate of income tax. That will apply alongside existing UK-wide income tax.

In Scotland, the lower, higher and top rates of income tax will be reduced by 10p. The Scottish Parliament will then make a tax decision to levy an additional rate, which may match rates elsewhere in the UK, or be higher or lower. That will replace the Scottish Parliament’s existing power to vary income tax in Scotland by 3p up or down. Such a change, implemented by a Liberal Democrat Secretary of State, gives Scotland more accountability for its spending, and can be only good for the country. I would be pleased if the Silk commission recommended something similar for Wales.

The Calman commission addressed the rebalancing of the boundaries between devolved and reserved policy matters. It recommended devolution of further powers, including administration of elections, licensing power in relation to misuse of drugs, power to set the drink-drive limit, and power to set the national speed limit. It recommended that some powers be retained by Westminster, including regulation of health professionals and corporate insolvency. Aggregates and air passenger duty are not being taken forward for various reasons.

Luckily, this debate includes hon. Members on both sides of the House with first-hand experience of the devolved Welsh Assembly. They include the hon. Members for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) and for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) and the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael). I look forward to their contributions, and have enjoyed some of those that have already been made. My hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) also has considerable knowledge of the matter, but because of his Government role, he will not be able to speak.

Although the new arrangement has been simplified since the referendum, a lot of relevant legislation is spread among many Acts of Parliament. The Government would provide a service if they introduced a consolidation Bill to simplify and make accessible those elements of law that have been devolved, or if there were a 180° turn so that legislation sets out matters that are reserved to Westminster, and all others are devolved, instead of having the present position of legislation setting out devolved matters, and everything else being reserved.

[Mr Mark Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, because there is confusion among the general public about which areas are devolved and which are reserved, as my hon. Friend will know from his constituents, and as I know from mine. We have an important duty to get the message of devolution out there to the general public. Does he hope, as I do, that the Silk commission will also reflect on that?

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. Even politicians sometimes have a less than perfect grasp of which issues are reserved and which are devolved. More importantly, the legal profession finds it very expensive to maintain an up-to-date record, or database, of changes in legislation. If something could be done to simplify that, it would benefit not only the public but the legal profession and people who have to deal with the legislation.

With the commission due to publish in autumn 2012, that leaves two and half years for this Parliament to see the implementation of measures on the issues on which agreement can be achieved. Will the Minister ensure that the report on those issues is produced as quickly as possible?

This is a historic opportunity for Wales. Finally, 12 years after the Welsh Assembly was set up, we can give it the ability and financial responsibility to do that which it was set up to do. It is building a better Wales—a strong nation, firm within the United Kingdom, and active in the European Union and on the world stage.

Consumer Focus Wales

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Williams]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point; he pre-empts the second half of my speech. The central message on which I agree with him is the need to secure a holistic body of information, with those isolated cases with which we as constituency MPs often deal put into the much broader context. That has been the great strength of Consumer Focus, and Consumer Focus Wales.

I wanted to set out the work that Consumer Focus Wales has done, because I do not want anyone to be under the illusion that it is not a relevant or useful body. I certainly do not believe that the Government take the view that the work done by Consumer Focus is not valuable; the Minister has said that that is not the case in our discussions. The organisation’s work is recognised, because the Government propose to transfer its functions into another, albeit in my view inadequate, model. The Government’s intention to reduce the cost is understandable, and I sincerely hope that they are able to deliver a service for consumers at a lower cost, but these functions are vital—they make a real difference to people’s lives.

The Government are now consulting on their approach to consumers, while the legislation that will allow them to abolish Consumer Focus makes its way through the Commons—the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), who is here, will recollect yesterday’s brief discussion in the Public Bodies Bill Committee on the role of Consumer Focus. The consultation had not, however, even been launched when the Bill was heard in the House of Lords some months ago. That certainly is not the ideal approach, though it is arguably necessitated by the difficult timetable and the need to make savings. Nevertheless, it inevitably has created a sense of uncertainty.

The real concern that Consumer Focus Wales has is about the model proposed by the Government. There are few organisations that I have praised more often in this House than Citizens Advice. It performs excellent advocacy right across Wales and the United Kingdom, but it does not have—currently, at least—a great deal of expertise in detailed policy research, certainly outside of benefits, personal finance and housing. It has done some admirable work, and as a constituency MP I have referred cases to it on such matters, and it has referred cases back to me. What were formerly my two bureaux in Aberystwyth and Cardigan, now merged into one Ceredigion bureau, have done some excellent work.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I support my hon. Friend in his views on Consumer Focus Wales, but I do not think that the alternative model would work to represent my constituents. Citizens Advice does not have that reach into the rural areas or that way of tapping into the problems. For instance, in Brecon an alternative organisation called the Brecon Advice Centre has set itself up to replace the citizens advice bureau.

[Mr Williams]

I agree with the thrust of my hon. Friend’s remarks. Like me, he represents a vast rural area. Brecon, Radnorshire and Ceredigion are huge tracts of rural Wales. With the capacity of small organisations, inevitably facing financial constraints at the moment and curtailed by costs, I question their ability to reach out into those communities, despite the best of intentions. We will have to look closely at the resource transfer implications, if resources are going to Citizens Advice, to ensure that it has adequate resources to deliver what is expected of them.

I welcome the Government’s intention to expand Citizens Advice’s policy research team, but there is no certainty about retaining existing expertise to transfer it to that team. We need to differentiate between the advocacy role of the individual bureaux in our constituencies and the central role of collating information, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North alluded, providing Members of Parliament, other interested parties and the Government with holistic information that advances public policy.

Some excellent people work in Consumer Focus Wales, and they have developed a high level of expertise over the past years. There is no guarantee that those excellent people will be retained by a new model. I hope that I am wrong on that, if we move in a certain direction, but I fear the worst.

St David’s Day

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to debate the designation of St David’s day as a public holiday. It is also a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, and to belatedly wish everybody a happy St David’s day, or dydd gwyl Dewi hapus.

There have been many mentions of a St David’s day public holiday over the years, but this is the first time in my five years in this place that we have had a debate, albeit a short one, devoted wholly to the subject. This year, I hope that the celebrations in Wales will be much bigger. We celebrated St David’s day yesterday, but we will also vote tomorrow on whether the Assembly should be granted extended law-making powers, and it would be an added cause for celebration this week if, as I hope, we achieve a yes vote.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

On that very point, and on the eve of an historic referendum that could give the Welsh Assembly defining legislative powers, does my hon. Friend think that it would be good for the organisation of public holidays in Wales to be within the competence of the Welsh Assembly Government?

[Mr Mark Williams]

My hon. Friend pre-empts my next line. Even with those powers—assuming we are successful in the referendum—the Welsh Assembly Government would be unable to designate St David’s day as a public holiday without the approval of the Westminster Government. A positive response by the Minister today could form part of a memorable Welsh treble, even if the triple crown will, sadly, remain elusive this year.

St David, or Dewi Sant, was renowned for his inspirational qualities as a monk, abbot and bishop. He is renowned for his achievements in spreading Christianity throughout western Britain and among the pagan Celtic tribes that resided there. He was the archbishop of Wales, and his fundamental importance to the establishment of religion in Wales cannot be underestimated. Colleagues in the Chamber will know that and they will understand that those traditions are as important in their constituencies as they are in mine.

St David had particular links with my constituency. He was the grandson of King Ceredig, the founder of Ceredigion. Dewi’s mother, Non—herself reputedly related to King Arthur—was born in the village of Llanon in my constituency and, indeed, gives her name to that village, whose name literally means “parish of Non”. St David was educated at the Henfynyw monastery near the newer village of Ffos-y-ffin, in the middle of Ceredigion.

St David’s day is already an extremely popular occasion for those inside and outside Wales. Yesterday, we had a fantastic service a few paces from this Chamber, and it was good to see the Speaker, the Secretary of State and all the political parties there honouring St David. It was especially good to see the children of the London Welsh school, who, through their dress and their singing for us, showed how vibrant our traditions are. Back home, there were eisteddfodau, a gymanfa ganu and a range of celebratory dinners. There was the legendary cawl. Even Google paid its tribute to Wales’s patron saint. However, we could and should make more of the opportunities with which St David’s day presents us.

I should congratulate the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), who introduced a ten-minute rule Bill on designating St George’s day as a public holiday before Christmas. In the debate on his Bill, he mentioned the case for a St. David’s day public day. I am not pushing the case for a St George’s day public holiday, although I am sure there is much support for that in England. My key concern is that a St David’s day public holiday should be a matter for the Welsh Assembly. It is a matter for Wales, it affects Wales uniquely and the decision should rest with the National Assembly.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Monday 13th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Williams]

That is the debate that needs to be had. I took the Deputy Prime Minister’s statement as the opening gambit in that discussion. I think that the hon. Gentleman is right. For the First Minister in the Welsh context simply to tamper with the date and have a general election in Wales a month after a general election would be completely unacceptable. We would have two months of perpetual campaigning and the drowning out of Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish issues would still very much apply.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

In future elections to the Welsh Assembly, the constituencies for Westminster might not be the same as those for the Assembly, which could lead to the confusion experienced in Scotland for the same reason.

[Mr Mark Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a telling point. It is one thing to have a general election and a one-issue referendum. I do not mind saying that I have chosen my line on that issue; my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister has convinced me that the Welsh people are perfectly equipped to differentiate between one issue on one ballot paper and voting in a Welsh general election. However, having two general elections on the same day is quite another thing, not least because of the different boundaries that are likely to apply, as my hon. Friend suggests. That will lead to a huge amount of confusion. We need to take a few minutes to reflect on it; I know it is hard for Members representing English constituencies to understand. It would be immensely confusing to voters if two general elections were held on the same day. We already have difficulty in explaining the devolution settlement and how it works, and indeed explaining the distinction between powers for the devolved nations and powers exercised by this Parliament. It is a very big issue.

I did not necessarily expect my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister to address this issue, but I am very pleased that he has. We do not know what it involves—[Interruption]—yet. He has acknowledged the problem, however, and I pay tribute to him for that, but we have to go further.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Williams]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I am drawing a distinction between a general election and a referendum. Fighting two general elections on different boundaries will potentially create huge problems. I have never doubted the intelligence of the electorate of Ceredigion to make judgments on all sorts of things, but some of the concern is legitimate. Like the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), I have not had any letters about fixed-term Parliaments, but I guarantee that people outside polling stations will be very concerned if we have these two elections on the same day. There will be a lot of concern and anxiety about it. It might not have manifested itself yet, but it will if the two elections go ahead on the same day.

[Roger Williams]

My hon. Friend is very generous in giving way. Before he concludes, I would like to put on record the view I share with him that, if the date of the election is to be altered, the Assembly and the other devolved Administrations, rather than Westminster, should be given the power to determine it.

[Mr Mark Williams]

I agree absolutely. As ever, I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who is a committed devolutionist, as am I, my party and other parties in the House. It is only right that that decision should be made in the devolved national bodies.

That is a debate to be had, as the past five minutes have illustrated perfectly. That reinforces the point made by the Select Committee Chairman, the hon. Member for Nottingham North, about the extent of the scrutiny he is able to undertake. The case for pre-legislative scrutiny now seems lamentably to have passed this Bill by. These are immense constitutional issues, but I believe that there is a large—albeit not unanimous—consensus about them. I only wish we had the opportunity to illustrate it through the scrutiny work of the Select Committee and other bodies of the House.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Mark Williams and Roger Williams

Monday 6th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen). I especially noted his point about pre-legislative scrutiny. Already in this Parliament, a number of Bills that have subsequently become Acts have been dealt with relatively quickly. Those Bills would certainly have benefited from pre-legislative scrutiny, although that is not to say that I oppose the principles contained in them.

There are those who would have liked two elements of this Bill—the proposed equalisation of constituencies and the referendum on a change in the voting system—to be in separate Bills. Pre-legislative scrutiny could have dealt with that, and perhaps produced greater agreement. I believe that from time to time the public of this nation have the right to a referendum on important issues such as this, and I hope that the majority of the House agrees with that. However, I shall concentrate on the issue of the equalisation of constituencies. We have heard a number of compelling arguments that we should seek to ensure that our boundary commissions look very frequently at our constituencies and the numbers of electors in them. As has been pointed out, equal constituencies was a key issue for the Chartist movement.

We all represent constituencies that are unique and every one of us could argue that because of deprivation, geography or demography our constituency should have greater representation or fewer electors so that we, as Members of Parliament, can do the work that we need to do. Indeed, I represent a very rural constituency; it is about 80 miles from north to south and about 40 miles from east to west—it may be the largest constituency in England and Wales, although I know that a number of Members would contest that—but I do not think that that should be a reason to have fewer electors electing somebody from that part of mid-Wales. Indeed, I am a bit of a purist on this subject and I would like no exceptions to the way in which constituencies are set up. I say that knowing that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) is present, and I am also concerned that I am upsetting my Chief Whip in this matter, which might not go very well for me in future.

If these proposals go ahead, we in Wales will see a fairly drastic reduction in the number of MPs, as will Scotland. It might be wise to ask why Scotland and Wales had greater representation than England. It might have been a sop to the nationalists that Wales and Scotland had greater representation in this House, and therefore the tendency to support the nationalist cause could be reduced.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I am not sure about the history of the circumstances of that, but does my hon. Friend not agree that there is logic in conducting the review into the reduction in the number of seats at the point at which the National Assembly for Wales acquires more powers, and not before? On a more positive note, will he also acknowledge his support for clause 11 which, essentially for us in Wales, decouples Westminster seats from Assembly seats, so that the work of the Assembly is not diminished in any way?

[Roger Williams]

Yes, I do very much welcome the decoupling of the seats for the Assembly and the electoral system for the Assembly from the Westminster process. That will certainly ensure that local representation is maintained in Wales and that Assembly representatives will be able to represent their areas on a very local and particular basis.

I will wholeheartedly support the equalisation of constituencies. If anything can be done for constituencies in which constituents have particular travel and access difficulties, that should be on the basis of allowing greater expenditure on staffing or further offices. I have to run two offices in my constituency, yet people still have to travel 30 miles to access them.