Swansea Tidal Lagoon

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I will be very quick. I congratulate the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing the debate. He alluded to the consensus, and I feel like a bit of an interloper in the debate, following the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), who has done so much in her constituency to champion the cause. I speak as a Welsh Member, to reiterate the point made by the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire about the consensus on the issue between all the political parties. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) got a few of us to sign an important letter to the South Wales Argus last year, to reiterate the case, and on 2 December our colleagues in the National Assembly unanimously voted to urge the UK Government to take action.

I suppose if I were to characterise the debate as encompassing the caution of the hon. Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) and the enthusiasm of the hon. Member for Swansea East I would on this occasion side with Swansea East. Although the review has been acknowledged by Members all around the Chamber—with some more enthusiastic about it than others—the key point is that if it is happening, to quote the chief executive of the lagoon project, it is not “a substitute for action”. The debate is about timing.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Williams]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me I will not take an intervention, because we want to hear the winding-up speeches.

There is a question of timing. We have a consensus, and the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire talked about the need not to prevaricate. If concern is felt in some quarters that the project is being put into some kind of grass—long or otherwise—I hope that the Minister will dispel that.

We have heard all the evidence. The Swansea bay tidal lagoon project is critical for Swansea and the adjacent areas. It is critical for Wales and the UK, not just as a means of reducing our reliance on fossil fuels, but also to increase the important renewables sector and for the Welsh economy. The technology is not new. Some of us have been on the Welsh Affairs Committee for quite a long time. The right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) is nodding. I remember a trip in a rubber dinghy in the Bristol channel with the predecessor of the hon. Member for Swansea East and the present shadow Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). It was an intriguing experience bobbing around in the Bristol channel with my colleagues; but we were there because, even 10 years ago, we were looking at the potential for such approaches. I cannot go back quite as far as the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) did in his speech, but we were talking about it 10 years ago.

Although it is not new technology, we need to look at other precedents around the world in France, Canada, Korea and elsewhere. We have the opportunity to be at the forefront of the technology. The lagoon could be the first of many such projects around the UK and elsewhere, if it is shown to be a success, bringing down the price of technology substantially and allowing us in Wales to export that technology around the world. I will repeat the figures: the Centre for Economics and Business Research has estimated that a UK tidal lagoon industry could increase our exports by £3.7 billion a year—for Swansea and the south-west of Wales. There would probably not be many jobs in Ceredigion; maybe a few. Setting the industry up would provide about 2,000 jobs, and much-needed high-skilled work in areas where that has sometimes been lacking. There would be several hundred ongoing jobs when the project was completed. We have heard about the tourist potential. In the years since I used to go there on holiday as a child, a huge amount of regeneration has happened in Swansea. We could build on that massively if this project moved ahead speedily.

If we are to meet our climate targets, it is vital that we invest up front for these kinds of projects and do not allow short-term thinking to scupper the long-term ambitions for our environment and economy. We need to ensure that we are at the forefront of encouraging the development of green technologies at a time when, if I am allowed briefly to be slightly party political in the last 30 seconds, there have been concerns about the direction of travel of the Department of Energy and Climate Change since the general election—but I say that only in passing.

The message of this debate is that politicians from all political parties—from direct engagement in Aberavon, the Gower and the city of Swansea, and from those of us from further afield—are urging the Government to get on with it. Have the review, but at the end of it, have some outcomes from which this project can grow and the communities we have heard about can prosper.

UK Media (Welsh Rugby)

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 8th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

I am always so grateful to the Minister. My local Montgomeryshire County Times & Express, the Cambrian News and various other local newspapers would probably qualify as my favourite papers, but the Telegraph is my favourite national newspaper.

Over the past month, I must also say that I have enjoyed the new columns from Isabel Hardman and others. On Sundays, I particularly enjoy the outstanding writing of Matthew d’Ancona, Janet Daley, Christopher Booker and others. Two weeks ago, however, my Sunday reading was completely ruined when I turned to the sports section to read about the two big rugby games that had been played on the previous Saturday. New Zealand had totally smashed England while Wales had come within a whisker of beating South Africa—many people’s favourite for next year’s rugby world cup—and winning in South Africa for the first time ever. In a truly magnificent performance, Wales dominated most of the match. I was able to read extensively in my newspaper about the England game with two full pages plus a good chunk of the front page. The Wales game got a few lines on page 14. I felt so let down, so disappointed, so frustrated. I know many other Welsh rugby supporters who felt just the same.

Over the last two weeks I have cooled off, and my reaction has been downgraded from seething anger to realistic observation. I accept that newspapers should be free to publish what they want—within the law of course.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. What assessment has he made of how the national Welsh media dealt with our near achievements in the rugby? Mindful that the Minister is here, what about S4C, the Cambrian News, which serves my constituency as well, Wales on Sunday and the Western Mail?

Wales Bill

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams]

I could not possibly comment, but I will give way to him.

[Glyn Davies]

I would just like to say that the late, great Baron Hooson was a wonderful Member of Parliament who served Montgomeryshire and Wales with distinction for many, many decades; I do not want to be accused of being churlish.

[Mr Mark Williams]

My hon. Friend says that with great sincerity, and I know him to be a sincere man. I just wish to place on the record the fact that the process of devolution has been an achievement of politicians of all parties—Liberals, Conservatives, and friends from the nationalists and from the Labour party—over the years. That process of consensus has to continue if the process of devolution marches on.

S4C and Welsh Identity

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point—I can only agree. It is inevitable, and in mid-Wales, where I live, it happened in a huge way—the population was disappearing completely. That is what developed my interest in public affairs. When I left school, I was the only person in the academic stream who stayed in the area; everybody else had to leave to find a job of any value of to them. But that trend has reversed to a large extent, as the numbers show: in Montgomeryshire, the numbers fell from 50,000 at the start of the last century to about 36,000 mid-century, but are back up to 50,000, so they went down but have come back up again. That is partly to do with the regional development policies of the Conservative Government of the 1980s, who invested greatly in the rural part of mid-Wales with great success.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Like others, I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. To return to education and the importance of the language, does he agree that an essential role of S4C has been to buttress education policy in schools? It is not a tool of Government policy but has meant that children from an anglicised background have had the Welsh language made familiar in their homes in a natural way. Does he also agree that evidence for the fact that S4C is in no way complacent is the international success of many of its commissions, not least “Hinterland”, which was filmed in Ceredigion?

[Glyn Davies]

Indeed. The only difficulty I had with the programme was that it rained pretty much throughout the whole first episode and was probably not particularly helpful to attracting tourists to Ceredigion. However, I have watched the later episodes, and I must say that it is a hugely successful programme.

My request for today’s debate was instigated by my meeting with S4C to discuss future funding. Decisions on programming have to be made two or three years ahead, and those making the decisions need to have an idea of what their budget will be. Although most of S4C’s budget comes from the licence fee, which is fairly certain, a certain amount comes from the Westminster Government—from DCMS—and is guaranteed for only a limited period. Programmes such as “Hinterland” take more than two years to deliver, from first discussions to delivery, so to commit to a programme such as that, which is hugely successful and will be internationally successful, a fair degree of certainty is needed. That is one of the main reasons I requested today’s debate, in the lead-up to consideration of how S4C will be funded. The licence fee we know about, and the Minister may have already started discussions on its future. Officially, they will probably start after the next election.

I know that S4C will deliver a document later this month to start the process of discussing what S4C will be from 2018 onwards. The agreement is that that will be considered. The issue is long-term funding in the creative industry. If we are going to have good and internationally successful programmes such as “Hinterland”, we need to have a period in which the board and chief executive of S4C can commit to delivering programmes in two years’ time, and that requires some certainty about the budget.

The next point I was going to make was the move to Carmarthen; I will make it again to satisfy my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). I have said what I was going to say, but I just thought that I would say it twice to make him happy.

Very soon now—or perhaps it has already started—the Secretary of State will be starting the long process of reviewing the BBC’s charter, and part of that will be its relationship with S4C and the continuation of the funding stream. There will also be discussions, which I hope hon. Members will be part of, about S4C deciding what sort of organisation it wants to be. There will be big changes—nothing stands still, particularly in the fast-moving world of the creative industries. There has to be a serious look at how much money comes in from advertising: if that is part of S4C’s funding, that has to be taken into account, because it relates to audience figures. When I see headline audience figures, I never really trust them, because we have to look at the whole picture and what is behind the figures. S4C produces a lot of children’s programmes, which do not count in the measurement although it has been incredibly successful in that field, exporting all over the world. Also, there is a big move by all television channels to online programming, which inevitably leads to a reduction in audience figures. We have to look at the issue in the round before we make a judgment about viewing figures. There will be a significant debate about the sort of S4C we want. As I said, I think S4C is producing a document later this month. That will be a chance for us to start engaging with it.

The United Kingdom has been a hugely successful entity for centuries. A key part of that is that each nation in it, whether Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, has to feel a sense that it is belonging to a team and that its differences and uniqueness are properly recognised right across the UK; that the whole team recognises its special features. In Wales, we have a special language, which about 20% of people speak; it is hugely successful. We have probably stopped its decline, but there has to be a constant and continuous battle. It is a minority language—I am not sure that Welsh is absolutely a minority language; it is probably just classed as such, and it does not seem to be a minority language any more in Wales—and it is under threat. There is a constant battle to protect and boost it. That has to be respected throughout the United Kingdom, not just in Wales, where we all know about it, but in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is why it is important that we have a debate about S4C, the language and the identity of Wales here in the UK Parliament. That is why I have secured today’s debate and why I have enjoyed sharing my views on the issue with hon. Members.

Mid-Wales Connection Project

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I look forward to speaking once more under your always sympathetic chairmanship, Mrs Riordan.

I will make a few initial comments about how I want to approach today’s debate. I could have tackled this issue, the effective industrialisation of the uplands of central Wales, from several different directions, but I want to focus completely on the direct implications of the mid-Wales connection project—the 400 kV line that will run from north Shropshire to the middle of my constituency. I assure the Minister that I have no intention of making any reference to the public inquiry currently taking place at the Royal Oak hotel, Welshpool, into the six proposals that have been refused and are to go to appeal. I know that he would not be able to comment on that, and I intend to refer to it only tangentially.

Normally when my thoughts turn to the appalling consequences of this project for the people of mid-Wales, I find it difficult not to become over-emotional—I become pretty angry and tend to lose my grip completely. That is fine when I am speaking to 2,000 people in Welshpool livestock market who all share my view and are protesting, or to the 1,800 people who have come with me on a three-and-a-half-hour bus journey to Cardiff to make their views known outside the National Assembly. Today I want to be calm, cool and rational, and to speak with understanding for the position of the Minister, who of course has to make his response in the context of Government policy.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Before he leaves his point about the passion with which he has directed this campaign—or crusade, as I guess he might regard it—I remind him that the concerns that he has voiced are felt very much to the immediate east of his constituency, across the border in England, but also to the west in Ceredigion. Mercifully, we have seen a project abandoned, temporarily at least, in Nant-y-Moch, but does he agree that the natural environment that he is keen to defend and protect is under threat in my constituency as well?

[Glyn Davies]

Indeed I do. I am glad that my hon. Friend intervened, in part because he is a Liberal Democrat, which shows that the feeling in mid-Wales is cross-party. If my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), another Liberal Member, were here, he would take exactly the same view. The people of mid-Wales as a whole, along with all their representatives, share the view that I intend to express today.

Rural Communities

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Thursday 9th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

This hugely important debate is of great interest. I often speak in debates in the House, but if I raise an issue about rural areas or rural policy, it is usually tangential or an add-on to another debate. A debate wholly about rural affairs is, therefore, hugely welcome and I am pleased to take part.

I have always lived in rural Wales. I was born on a hill farm in rural Montgomeryshire, where I have always lived, and nearly all my relations are still from there. Throughout my public life—now decades old—my interest has been the promotion of the economy of rural areas, and that involves not only farming, which was my occupation, but the recognition that rural areas must change and develop other forms of employment if they are to thrive.

The report, which was so ably presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), covers a huge range of issues. One could probably speak for days on this topic, but I want to consider those areas that have an impact on my constituency. Inevitably, most of those issues are related to policy in England, but they have a big impact on Wales and particularly on my constituency. Montgomeryshire is a beautiful constituency that marches alongside another beautiful constituency in Shropshire, and many policies in mid-Wales depend on what is happening there. Wales is developing as its own nation in a great and welcome way that I support. The reality, however, is that the economy of mid-Wales is still connected and dependent on Shropshire and the west midlands, so the link between Shropshire and Montgomeryshire is important.

The four headings I want to speak on briefly relate to the cross-border issue: health care; transport infrastructure; rural community empowerment, touching on onshore wind farms; and farming, which is not covered massively in the report but is important to all of us.

The report covers the difficulty of access to health care for people living in rural areas. Strokes and heart attacks in particular require quick access, and that is problem for those living in rural areas, especially when the ambulance service is nothing like as good as it should be. Although a relatively small number of people in the west of my constituency depend on Bronglais general hospital, we depend substantially for specialist services, including obstetrics and paediatrics, on those in England, in Shropshire. A £38 million development is going ahead in Telford, which will serve my constituency of Montgomeryshire. The situation is the same in relation to orthopaedics and elective care, which are crucial.

Devolution affects how the Governments in Westminster and Wales work together. There has been a tendency, certainly with some Ministers in Wales, to want to develop a Wales solution, and that influences policy in Shropshire to the huge detriment of my constituents in Montgomeryshire. If the people developing services in Shropshire are seeking to serve their community of Shropshire, that almost inevitably points to the middle of it, which is Telford. Although the £38 million development is going ahead at Telford hospital, the area served is Shropshire and mid-Wales, so Shrewsbury should be the centre. Any sensible consideration, which looked not at two separate Governments but at the people they serve, would make investment in Shrewsbury hospital more likely. That point needs to be made here and in the National Assembly for Wales.

The second issue, which I have touched on previously, is transport infrastructure. Transport is largely devolved, but investment in cross-border issues depends on commitment from both sides of the border. There are schemes where the Welsh Government are keen to go ahead and would make the commitment to go ahead, but they require a commitment from England. When the Welsh Government are making their assessment of the value of a scheme, they know how important it is to have access to markets. From an English perspective, there is no access to markets consideration. Devolution is, therefore, resulting in schemes that would have gone ahead, because the Welsh Government want them to, falling with no prospect of going ahead at all. That is not the way devolution is supposed to work. In relation to cross-border road schemes, it is causing great disbenefit to my community. I have mentioned this on a number of occasions and I will probably do so on a number of occasions again. I hope that in the next few months, as we consider the Silk commission, we will have opportunities to return to the matter.

The third issue is tangential to the onshore wind debate. Mid-Wales and Shropshire are again linked together by the Mid Wales Connection. I should say briefly that the Mid Wales Connection takes in north Shropshire and Montgomeryshire and amounts to between 500 and 600 wind turbines on top of what is there now—there are probably more in Montgomeryshire than anywhere else. It is a monster, with about 100 miles of cable, that will completely transform the whole area. Politicians of all parties, including my two Liberal Democrats colleagues in mid-Wales, have exactly the same view as me.

[Mr Mark Williams]

indicated assent.

Legal Aid (Rural Wales)

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Williams]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention, which illustrates the huge degree of concern. The Government embark on consultations, and we can have a debate about whether they are genuine; I hope very much that this one is, as much needs to be said and changes need to be made. However, I have to raise the treatment of the Welsh language in this case. I see, as an English speaker representing a majority Welsh-speaking constituency—50% of my constituents do so, and in large parts of my constituency, larger percentages speak Welsh as their first language—that what has happened is an insult to those people. All Departments across Whitehall need to be mindful of that when they produce any documentation.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is making a hugely important point to many of us who represent rural parts where the Welsh language is strong. Does he agree that the consultation simply has not been acceptable, and the principal reason is the attitude towards the Welsh language, not only in the consultation, but in the fact that there will be four firms, making it impossible for them to deliver the service and pay proper account to the Welsh language?

[Mr Williams]

I agree with my hon. Friend completely on that point, and I am grateful for both interventions. They illustrate points that I will make a little later in my speech.

Fuel Poverty (Wales)

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

The first figures are for 1996, but I just made reference to the figures for the period from 2004 to 2009, which saw a massive increase. I simply wanted to draw attention to the fact that even though the Government at the time would have been very committed to protecting people from fuel poverty, there were international conditions that resulted in a massive increase. That is why I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing forward a debate on such an important issue. It is one that faces us all. It is a particularly serious issue in Wales, and there are a number of reasons for that.

Clearly, one reason is that we have less insulated housing stock in Wales. The Welsh Government are seeking to deal with that issue, and here at Westminster we have the drive towards the green deal. Across Britain, we are tackling the issue of home insulation, which is massively important. However, there is one issue that we must always be careful of: all these things add costs to new housing; they make it very difficult to build. One of the worries that we have is that we should be focusing all our attention on making sure that properties are well insulated. That is why I so disagree with the sprinkler system that is being introduced in Wales. That puts a high value on new houses when that value should be coming from making houses more insulated.

The second issue is the higher dependence in Wales on oil, which is more expensive. That is an historical issue. And of course, in Wales—this is a big issue in Rhyl and certainly in the north of my constituency—average wages are lower, which increases the level of fuel poverty.

I commented initially on the huge rise in fuel poverty between 2004 and 2009, much of which was due to the international market, which is outside our control. We are seeing now the pressure that comes from international gas prices—probably the biggest contributor to the increase in energy prices that we have seen—which are outside our control. That means that we must be particularly careful about the additional things, which might not have quite as much impact but are within our control. That is why I want to refer again to an issue that I think my right hon. Friend the Minister will be tired of hearing me talk about: the impact of the environmental taxes that are put on the bottom of our energy bills. We are always told how little a factor that is compared with the international market. We cannot influence the latter, but we can influence the former, and I want to explain why we should reduce that increase.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments. He talks about action that we can take. One thing that we can do on oil prices is actively encourage, particularly in rural areas, the development of oil syndicates. The Department of Energy and Climate Change has taken some action on that. Would he encourage DECC to take more action to encourage the development of oil syndicates and get those prices down, particularly in rural areas that are off-grid and have no other options?

[Glyn Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I certainly agree with him. I have encouraged DECC to do a number of things recently in relation to energy and oil prices. One thing it should not be doing is building wind farms and destroying the countryside in mid-Wales.

We must consider seriously the issue of shale gas. I know that there are an awful lot of conditions and we must be very careful about how we go forward with shale gas, but as a nation we must take the issue seriously. We have to take it forward and understand whether there is potential there to help us with energy prices.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

5. What assessment he has made of the work of the Commission on Devolution in Wales.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of the work of the Commission on Devolution in Wales.

[The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg)]

On 19 November, the Commission on Devolution in Wales delivered a thorough and clear analysis of the options for fiscal devolution in Wales. The Government welcome publication of the Commission’s report and will respond formally in due course.

Organ Donation

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Wednesday 30th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I simply do not accept that. The evidence actually shows the opposite of what he has just said, and he is ignoring that evidence. This is an issue of such importance to me—probably the most important issue to me since I have been a Member of Parliament—that I have looked carefully at the evidence. I do not want to be advocating a course of action that in some way negates that evidence, and I do not think that that is what I have been doing.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

The hon. Gentlemen has been very careful. He has cited the experience of Belgium and Spain. Would he also cite the experience of the survey held by the Kidney Wales Foundation, looking at 22 different countries, comparing the rates of donation and concluding that presumed consent would increase the rate of donation by up to 30%?

[Glyn Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I referred to Spain because that is the example that all those who seek presumed consent have quoted for many years. I then referred to Belgium because when it was shown that the evidence from Spain did not support that argument, the example then used was Belgium. If there is evidence from 22 more countries, then I will have to see the results from them as well. I just do not accept that the international evidence supports the move to presumed consent at all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Williams]

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) also spoke with characteristic passion, and he spoke with passion about constituents, which is an important point to make. Another important point to acknowledge is that this is not a partisan issue. I happen to support the stance taken by the Welsh Assembly Government. It is not a Government that my party is part of, but I support the initiative of both Health Ministers in the Assembly, who happen to be Labour Members.

I will briefly explore the Assembly Government case and endorse the work of the British Medical Association. I will also highlight the work of the Kidney Wales Foundation, the British Heart Foundation, Diabetes UK Wales, the British Lung Foundation and the Kidney Welsh Patients Association.

[Glyn Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Wind Farms (Mid-Wales)

Debate between Mark Williams and Glyn Davies

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

I want to come later in my speech to what we will be left with afterwards, but the sheer scale of what is proposed means that the development will cause huge damage. Already people are not prepared to commit themselves to holidays in the long term. Already the prices of houses are falling. The impact is already seriously damaging. There are beautiful parts of Britain; the economy of mid-Wales depends on tourism, which depends on its beauty. What some people want is to act freely to destroy the one thing that makes the place special. That is what the authorities in their various forms are contemplating doing.

When the policy statement or technical advice note popularly known as TAN 8 was issued by the Welsh Assembly Government in 2005, I and a few others understood immediately that this monstrous proposal would be the consequence. However, the local population did not truly grasp the scale of what that policy statement meant. I suppose that it seemed almost too incredible to believe—if only it were. Now that the population of mid-Wales have grasped the degree of desecration planned for their area, there has been an uprising of anger and protest the like of which I have never seen before.

Huge numbers of people, usually approaching 500, have turned up at several public meetings. At one meeting that I called in Welshpool, at short notice and with minimal advertisement, more than 2,000 people turned up. These people are from every sector of the population, and include many who would benefit financially from the proposals. If the National Assembly for Wales had been sitting at the time and not involved in an election, all of them would have descended on Cardiff bay there and then to ensure that the politicians behind this outrage were made fully aware of the scale of the anger.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He has cited meetings in his constituency. Does he agree that this is very much a mid-Wales issue? In the north of Cardiganshire, the prospect of the huge wind farm development at Nant y Moch has also caused huge concern locally. That concern has been articulated very effectively by the Cambrian Mountains Society, which is campaigning for the Cambrian mountains to become an area of outstanding natural beauty. That needs to be respected. The public anxiety to which the hon. Gentleman refers is very real and extends across the whole of mid-Wales.

[Glyn Davies]

There is truly a mid-Wales impact. The proposals affect part of Radnorshire hugely and all of Shropshire, depending on where the lines to the national grid go, and of course there is the proposal for Nant y Moch in Ceredigion, but the biggest effect by quite a distance will probably be on my constituency of Montgomeryshire. In relation to the impact locally, I pay tribute to the local newspaper, the County Times. It has understood what the people of its catchment area feel and has organised petitions. It realises that virtually everyone in the county opposes what is proposed. It is a proposition that everyone locally is deeply and fundamentally opposed to and always will be.

The protest that I spoke of will still take place, as soon as the recently elected Assembly Members have taken their seats. I will do all I can to ensure that that happens. We must ensure that in years to come, they cannot disclaim responsibility for the environmental vandalism and shocking waste of public money for which they will have been responsible. We do not want the people responsible for the decision saying, “We didn’t understand that it was going to cause that much damage.” It is important that they know now exactly what they are going to do. In decades to come, they will be remembered, in the way that those who were responsible for drowning the Tryweryn valley in the last century are remembered in Wales today, half a century later. We must ensure that, in mid-Wales, their names will be remembered in future decades as having been on the roll call of those responsible for splitting the Welsh nation asunder.