Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Mark Harper and Lord Mann

Monday 10th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

Yes, we are confident that they are. Last week I met the chair of the all-party group on migration, the noble Baroness Hamwee, to discuss the report. The Government will consider the recommendations in that report, but my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has set out clearly the objective of the family migration rules: to ensure that those who want to make their family life in the United Kingdom are able to support their families, rather than expecting the taxpayer to do so.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

T9. Reductions in overdose deaths; reductions in in-patient A and E admissions for drug addicts; reductions in house burglary; increases in employment of drug addicts in treatment—on all these indicators, Bassetlaw is outperforming the rest of the country. Why?

Parliamentary Lobbying

Debate between Mark Harper and Lord Mann

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Westminster Hall

[John Mann]

I would not include them, in the same way that I would not include small business owners in the same category. The issue is this—what access is gained to Parliament?

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

Double standards.

[John Mann]

The Minister says “double standards”. That is what the Government are attempting to do; they are attempting to distract us from this issue, because of the Werrity scandal, and make us look at another issue. This issue has nothing to do with “standards”; it is to do with access. If a Minister’s researchers and advisers become paid lobbyists, of course they have better contact and communication with that Minister, whether that is a Conservative Minister, Labour Minister or any other Minister. Of course that is the case and that is the problem.

The question, “What should be done about it?”, is fundamental. Before I answer it, however, there is another aspect that we must consider. Let us take the case of Bell Pottinger and the Werrity scandal. In that case, the question that arises is about the international role of lobbyists, because what has not come out is information about the role that Bell Pottinger was playing in Sri Lanka. People have been distracted from that issue, not least because Lord Bell is doing quite a lot of the public relations to try to cover his tracks and what was going on, which was Bell Pottinger representing the Government of Sri Lanka. According to the Catholic bishop of Mannar, under that Government 146,000 people have disappeared without trace, including many members of his congregation, and Bell Pottinger is there in Sri Lanka representing the interests of that Government. That is why transparency is important, and that is why we need to know if Ministers are having meetings with the Sri Lankan Government that were set up by Mr Werrity or indeed by anyone else. What is going on? Bell Pottinger is being paid to facilitate such things on behalf of the Government of Sri Lanka.

I will conclude now because other Members wish to speak, but what we need are the following principles, which I will put to the Minister. The first principle is transparency. There must be absolute transparency in all the meetings that we have as politicians, and there is not. The lack of transparency is the fundamental weakness that exists, with people claiming that “private engagements” have happened. There should be no such thing as a “private engagement” for a Minister, and there should be very little of it for an MP. There should be transparency.

Secondly, where money and profit are involved, transparency is all the more urgently required and should be all the more available, because of the paying for access scandals that have bedevilled politics in this country.

The third principle relates to preferential access. There needs to be action on preferential access. How do we do that, because someone cannot stop their researcher from working for a lobbying company? It is a free world. However, there needs to be a recording of all ministerial meetings, and all MPs should be recording what lobbyists are attempting to do if they are successful in influencing them. Also, there should be a full ban on paid professional lobbyists having passes in order to access this place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

My understanding is that all the meetings up to the end of April this year have been published. However, I will check up on the matter. It was my understanding because that information has been provided.

On the point the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) made, even some of his colleagues—I will not embarrass them by pointing them out—thought that his line about trade unions not being encompassed by the transparency rules is unsustainable. Given the fact that the party he represents gets 85% of its donations from trade unions and a quarter of its donations from a single trade union, I am afraid that his argument is simply not defensible.

[John Mann]

I have not put that argument. Lobbyists are lobbyists and trade union lobbyists are lobbyists. However, every trade union member and trade union official is not a lobbyist. A lobbyist is a lobbyist. I, for one, have never been one.

[Mr Harper]

But every trade union official who seeks to influence Members and Ministers is engaged in lobbying, and they should be covered by the transparency rules just like everyone else. They have nothing to hide and it is important that the hon. Gentleman recognises that as, to be fair, I think several Labour Members do.

There will be some challenges about definitions and what we encompass in our consultation. That is why we want to listen and ensure that people can make a case and approach Members of Parliament, and that there is nothing untoward going on. We need to ensure that there is transparency, that people know what is going on, that Members of Parliament and Ministers are using their judgment about the arguments when they are making decisions and that people are not getting privileged access.

Transparency is a good thing. We will introduce our proposals this month and listen to what people have to say. I am very happy to have a dialogue with the hon. Member for Caerphilly to try to reach a consensual approach between the parties because the position will then be much clearer. The hon. Member for Newport West made a valid point that we need our constituents to have much more confidence in the system. I hope that we can reduce the chances of abuse and problems occurring in future.

Election Petitions

Debate between Mark Harper and Lord Mann

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on securing the debate. It is not the first time we have heard from him this evening, but no less the worse for that.

The Government want to improve public confidence in all aspects of our electoral system. I am sure that all hon. Members would agree that it is important that the conduct of all elections to this House, and to local authorities and the European Parliament, are beyond reproach. I agree with the hon. Gentleman when he says that we want elections to be decided through the ballot box and not in the courts, but some remedies should be available to deal with cases of corrupt or illegal practices by candidates or agents. There should be clear and robust mechanisms for challenging the results of elections, and he is right to say that they should include appropriate, proportionate and accessible safeguards. The Government’s view is that that is the case under the Representation of the People Act 1983.

The hon. Gentleman raised several issues of cost, including the overall cost, and made a specific point about a court’s ability to apportion costs. My understanding is that courts have a wide discretion under section 154 of the Act to apportion costs. He raised a specific case that I will endeavour to look at after the debate and consider what he said in the light of it.

The hon. Gentleman also made a point about proportionality. Although there may be technical reasons why a returning officer may have declared a particular result, revoking the election of somebody is a significant step and should not be done lightly. Although the hon. Gentleman suggested cases in which it might be considered only an administrative matter, if we think a little more about it we realise that those of us who have been elected would not want our elections to be overturned by some relatively straightforward process. It should be difficult to overturn an election, and we need to strike a balance in the level of proportionality.

Notwithstanding the relatively recent case of Phil Woolas, it is also worth saying that the election petition device—certainly for parliamentary elections—is rare. There have only been seven petitions issued against the results of UK parliamentary elections since 1997, and only two of those have been successful. Hon. Members on both sides of the House would agree that it would not be healthy if we had regular challenges.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned appeals. The High Court in the Woolas case confirmed that section 144 of the 1983 Act said that decisions of the electoral courts were final insofar as matters of fact were concerned. The hon. Gentleman was right about that, but I do not agree that that was a misconsolidation of the 1983 Act. If he goes back to the 1868 Act—I will not go as far back as the 400 years that he suggested—he will see that it was also clear that matters of fact were final decisions that the election court could take. In the Woolas case, the High Court made it clear that the decisions about the application of the law were judicially reviewable—

[John Mann]

The anomaly is that for a criminal case the law has been changed and allows an appeal, as the Fiona Jones case demonstrated. In a civil case, no appeal is allowed, and that surely is neither rational nor fair.

[Mr Harper]

I shall come on to that point in a moment. I just wished to make the distinction clear between matters of fact and the application of the law, which—to be fair—the hon. Gentleman did. The High Court made it clear that it was possible for judicial review of how the election court had applied the law.

On the basis of that decision, I do not think that the law needs to be changed to clarify the decision that matters of law can be appealed, although there was confusion in the reports of the case about whether Phil Woolas was appealing or requesting judicial review.

It is for Members to weigh up the issues, taking into account the hon. Gentleman’s point that we never know when we might be the subject of one these petitions. However, we must balance against that the need for a level of speed in the process. When Phil Woolas sought a judicial review, the High Court concluded on the justification for finality on fact:

“Election petitions must be determined with urgency. Finality in the determination is of great importance for not only must the electors have a representative in Parliament, but in times when majorities are small, the absence of a Member can be significant.”

A balance needs to be struck in this process between getting the right decision and getting it quite speedily. He raised several points about that matter. The Government keep it under review, but at the moment we are not persuaded by his arguments.

At the end of his remarks, the hon. Gentleman raised a more general issue about party funding. He will know that the coalition Government have made a commitment to deal with party funding—hopefully, on a consensual basis. We are waiting for the Committee on Standards in Public Life to publish its report. The committee might make proposals that we can take as a basis for conversations between the parties and that might deal with some of the issues he has raised. He also made a point about the danger of political arguments being used to try to overturn elections. I think that the High Court made clear the distinction between false statements of fact about a candidate’s personal character or conduct and their political or public position—a statement had to be one or the other, but could not be both. Members when approving literature and others when thinking about challenging us should bear it in mind that it is not about running off to court every time someone says something about someone’s political position.

The hon. Gentleman made a point about things that get authorised by us. The legislation makes it clear that candidates should be liable to have their election voided only if they or their election agents—not lots of other people, but specifically they or their election agents—have authorised or consented to those illegal practices. That should ensure that election candidates and their election agents are careful about what they authorise and approve the spending of money on. They should perhaps be careful not to delegate that responsibility to others. It is not the case that anybody involved in a campaign can put out pieces of paper—if they are not approved by the candidate or election agent, they cannot lead to what happened in the case of Mr Woolas.

In conclusion, the Government agree that there should be proportionate and accessible procedures for challenging elections. We will keep the current position under review, and I will consider the specific issues that the hon. Gentleman raised, particularly on costs, and come back to him one way or the other.

Question put and agreed to.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Mark Harper and Lord Mann

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

The Minister conveniently ignores the fact that in some constituencies, such as those containing a large number of students or a large number of second homes, people will have registered twice. Constituencies will therefore not be equal, and individual registration will bring that sharply into focus at some stage in the future.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman has raised three issues. First, I can tell him that we propose to continue to use the registered electorate data. Secondly, I can say in answer to his point about our proposal to introduce individual voter registration that—as I have made clear in the House before—the Government are as interested in the completeness of the registers as in their accuracy. The hon. Gentleman, who follows these matters closely, will know that we propose to conduct pilots this year with a range of local authorities to examine public sector databases, and the possibility of using the data to ensure that the electoral register is more complete. Thirdly, the hon. Gentleman will know that ownership of a second property does not, in itself, allow people to register to vote; the electoral registration officer must be satisfied that they genuinely reside in the area concerned.

[John Mann]

This is not just a question of second homes; it is also a question of the presence of students. Some constituencies contain 20,000 students, many of whom are dual-registered. There will not be equality of size; indeed, we will not know whether there is equality of size, because the students’ home constituencies will vary dramatically. We can only guess what the figures would be.

[Mr Harper]

The Bill does not change the process of using the registered electorate data—which are the best that we have—to make the necessary decisions. I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman’s point holds water.

[John Mann]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman once more, but then I must make some progress.

[John Mann]

The Minister is kindly giving way again, in the interests of good debate.

My constituency does not contain many students. Whatever limit is set, that will be the number of people eligible and wanting to vote. Other constituencies—Sheffield, Hallam, for instance—contain vast numbers of students. There will be a big difference between the number of voters in Bassetlaw and the number of real voters in Sheffield, Hallam. What has that to do with equality of size of constituencies? The Minister has lost the argument, has he not?

[Mr Harper]

No. I am not entirely certain what argument the hon. Gentleman is trying to make, and I suspect that I carry at least quite a few Members with me. We are not changing the basis on which we use registered electorate data. The hon. Gentleman mentioned a limit to the number of people who had registered to vote, but everyone in his constituency who is eligible to vote is able to register. I would encourage everyone who is eligible to register to vote in his constituency to do so, and to use that vote in an election—as, I am sure, would all Members on both sides of the House.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Mark Harper and Lord Mann

Monday 25th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Harper]

I have said that I am going to explain why hon. Members should vote against the amendments; I think that there are very good reasons for that. I have listened carefully and at length to the hon. Gentleman, as I have on every day of these debates. I want to use this as a good opportunity to talk about these matters.

I am happy to admit that we may not have reached perfection, but when one considers how we have conducted ourselves on this Bill compared with what Labour did when in government, it is clear that we have made tremendous steps forward in allowing the House time to consider it. Last week the hon. Member for Rhondda referred to the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, which was a similar kind of Bill, and said we should have allowed a day for each clause of our Bill. If a whole day had been spent on each clause of the CRAG Bill, which had 95 clauses, we would have had 24 weeks of debate—and of course we did not. Entire new parts and several stand-alone clauses were added which bore no relation to any existing provisions in the Bill. Only six days in Committee were allowed for those 95 clauses, and only a single day to debate all the new clauses on the alternative vote. There were multiple knives in the programme motion to restrict debate, and only one day for Report. I am happy to accept that we may not be perfect, but we have made tremendous steps forward.

[John Mann]

Is the Minister daring to come to this House and suggest that failing to put this Bill into a proper Committee, with week after week of scrutiny—I would have been happy to serve on it, and to stay overnight as well if necessary—and railroading this gerrymandered Bill through Parliament is in some way democratic? How has he got the nerve to come up with such nonsense?

[Mr Harper]

By having a Committee of the Whole House, we have enabled every Member to be here. I have been here for all five days of debate, and enjoyed them tremendously. I am afraid that I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman on this particular issue. If he wants to wait, however, he will find that, much to my surprise, I agree with several of his points about the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Rhondda.

[John Mann]

But Members such as myself have tabled amendments, and because there has not been enough time, they have not even been scheduled for debate. The gerrymandering being attempted is not even being debated in the Committee, because of the timetabling. This collapsing coalition has put together a democratic outrage.

[Mr Harper]

That argument might be credible if I did not remember all the programme motions that the hon. Gentleman voted for in the last Parliament. Indeed, Labour Members opposed both the second programme motion on this Bill, which added six hours of debate, and the original programme motion, which ensured that we had more debate last week than we otherwise would have done. When we gave the Committee more time—to take account of the statement on the strategic defence and security review and the, quite rightly, lengthy statement on the comprehensive spending review—Labour Members voted against extra compensatory time. Labour never gave such compensation when we debated important provisions.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Mann]

Why do the Minister and his mate from the Liberals—the Deputy Prime Minister, who cannot even turn up—not have the courage of their convictions and listen to arguments on amendments, including from their own side of the House, to improve their rotten Bill?

[Mr Harper]

I can see why my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) was confused and tried to intervene on the hon. Gentleman. That was a very lengthy intervention, almost worthy of a speech.

We have made considerable provision for debate, and when the Government provide extra time, the Committee needs to debate a Bill sensibly. To be fair, most Members have done so, but I cannot help but observe that most of the extra time that we added for the past couple of days was almost entirely used up by the hon. Member for Rhondda. Rather than comment, I will let Members judge for themselves whether he used that time well.