Crown Estate (Wales) Bill [HL]

Lord Harper Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 6th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly. I strongly support what my noble friend Lord Moynihan said about the complexity of the economic opportunities here. I was involved in some of those negotiations when I was the Secretary of State for Transport. They are complex and overlap on both English and Welsh interests. If you were to split them, that would make it harder to land those economic opportunities.

I want to touch briefly on what the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, said about the 20 mph speed limits in Wales, in order to present a balanced picture. I will not dwell on them, because they are not the subject of this Bill, but I think that she should also have mentioned that the original proposals by the Welsh Government carried a cost to the Welsh economy of £4.5 billion; that is in the Welsh Government’s own impact assessment. You have to balance that against the lives saved and decide whether that balance is correct and whether that cost of £4.5 billion, if used in a different way, would achieve a better outcome. I just want to put that on the record to balance out the argument. The noble Baroness is pulling a face at me, but the impact assessment of the Welsh Government costed that policy at £4.5 billion; that is their figure, if she wants to take it up with them.

The final point I want to make picks up the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, about where the revenues go. It is worth pointing out, I think, that, through the Barnett formula, the Welsh people are net beneficiaries of the UK Exchequer. It is not clear from the Bill, as proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, what impact transferring revenues of the Crown Estate has on the Barnett formula—that is, whether it will be netted off and leave the same amount of money going to the Welsh Government, or whether it will be an increase—but the point is that more than all of the revenue that flows from the Welsh public into the Exchequer goes back because they are net beneficiaries. So there is no unfairness here to the people of Wales. I think that taxpayers in the rest of the United Kingdom would look unfavourably on more revenues being transferred to the Welsh Government and increasing that net benefit at a time when the public finances are, as my noble friend Lord Harlech said, so stretched. The picture is a little more complex than some noble Lords have said. For those reasons, I strongly support—

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

For clarification, would the noble Lord like to make it clear that the figure of £4 billion he gave was over three decades?

[Lord Harper (Con)]

Yes, I am very happy to make that point, but it is still a significant sum of money. If you do what is normally done in these circumstances, which is to look at the cost versus the benefit, I would argue that that is not a good return. Of course, that is one reason—alongside the enormous unpopularity of that policy—why the Welsh Government responded to the political pressure from both my party and the public by changing the policy significantly. They themselves are not, I think, persuaded by those arguments.

I was going to finish by saying that, for the reasons I set out, I strongly support the amendments tabled by my noble friends Lord Harlech and Lord Moynihan. I very much hope that, in due course, the House will get a chance to support them.

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I shall speak to the amendments in my name. By way of background, we have had the benefit of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, speaking about what makes this issue what I would describe ultimately as a hearts-and-minds issue. The acquisition of the Crown Estate in Wales by conquest and inheritance, the imposition of English laws, the exploitation, as it is perceived in Wales, of Wales’s resources of coal and water and the fact that Scotland has been allowed to control its own estate turn this into an important political and hearts-and-minds issue. I have tried, through the amendments I have put forward, to recognise that. In saying that it is an important hearts-and-minds issue, we must bear in mind the view of the Welsh Government, of the same complexion as the Government here in London, that they want devolution. The overwhelming majority of Welsh authorities want devolution. The very strong feeling is, for the reasons that I have tried briefly to summarise, that there ought to be devolution of the Crown Estate to Wales.

What has bedevilled this problem is a failure to understand and give effect to the difference between ownership and benefit from an asset and management of an asset. Those of us who may be fortunate to have the odd spare penny or two know the difference. Allowing someone else who is better qualified to manage assets while ensuring that the policy towards those assets and the ultimate benefit appertain to the owner is an important distinction that I have sought to make.

The first step is to try to identify what is the Crown Estate in Wales. Is it valuable? Does it have any assets? Does it have any revenue? Noble Lords may recall that in the Second Reading debate I spent a little time—I am not going to do that today because it is unnecessary—going through the accounts of the Crown Estate Commissioners in respect of Wales. The revenue and asset values for the year ending March 2021 were clear, but there was nothing in the accounts thereafter.

I challenged the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, about how an accountant could possibly not be able to identify the assets and income. I am immensely grateful to him and the chief executive of the Crown Estate Commissioners and to one of the commissioners for a meeting I had with him. Having checked with him, and I am happy to say he agrees that I can say this, I was told by him that in the financial statements for next year—that is, for the year ending March 2026—it is the commissioners’ intention to provide a separate breakdown for Wales of the assets and revenue. That shows that you can identify what is Welsh and what is English, and you can show the resultant revenue streams and capital expenditure, so an awful lot of the obfuscation that has occurred can be got rid of. I do not want to comment any further. Let us wait for those accounts to be produced. It brings to an end the argument that you cannot really say what is Welsh and what is English and what is the benefit from it. We will know. It is a great pity that this was not done before.

Therefore, I think that what is before us now is, if this hearts-and-minds issue is to be addressed and dealt with, how do we take this forward? It would be very helpful for us to hear from the Minister about the discussions that have been taking place between his colleagues—I assume that they are his colleagues—in Cardiff and his colleagues here in London about dealing with this hearts-and-minds issue and, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has been very careful to stress, obtaining economic benefits for Wales. The distinction that I try to draw is between ownership of and benefit from the assets and the management of the assets, and that is why I put forward Amendments 4 and 7.

First, Amendment 4 is primarily to set a timetable. It is no use having a Bill, it seems to me, that transfers the assets on its passing without some clear preparatory work and a timetable to reassure investors and others that the transfer is orderly. Therefore, Amendments 4 and 7 put forward a timetable. I have put dates forward as indicative only: obviously, the timetable is a matter for detailed discussion between the Governments in London and Cardiff, providing that, during that period, the Crown Estate commissioners remain completely in control—they ought to take account of the views of Welsh Ministers but not be bound by them—and that the income thereof in the meantime is properly identified. This really provides a bridging period, dealing with the issue of the transfer of the assets but allowing their management to continue, and therefore really tries to address the problem that, as I understand it, some Government Ministers have put forward, that all this would wreak havoc with investment and jobs in Wales. I regard that as a fallacy. When one really looks at what we are talking about, it is accepting that the Crown Estate in Wales is a national asset of the Welsh people, but accepting that there needs to be an orderly transfer.

As to the future, I have put down a separate amendment, Amendment 5, which I will address in due course, in the second group of amendments, because it addresses this fundamental misunderstanding that is used to try to justify the preparation of an injustice which does such damage to the union.