Criminal Justice Bill (First sitting)

Mark Garnier Excerpts

Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I remind Members to try to avoid asking the same questions, because we are limited for time with our witnesses. I call Mark Garnier.

[Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)]

Q Chief Constable, thank you for coming. On this retail crime thing, obviously it is a big scourge—my congratulations to you on increasing arrest rates by, I think, 29%.

One complaint that I have heard from my local police is that, although they can come in, arrest people and charge people, and take them to court, quite often the retailer, who is the victim of the crime, may be reluctant, after a few instances to go to court and spend a day in court away from their shop. Then, quite possibly, it will be a suspended sentence and that criminal will be back in their shop the next day, after they have lost that day’s work. Does this Bill address any of those particular problems, and do you, in your capacity, find that a problem in securing prosecutions against retail criminals?

Chief Constable Stephens: From the consultation that we have done with the team on this, that has not been reported as a particular problem. I think that the broader problem is the work we need to do in policing to regain the confidence of retailers that we are taking this seriously enough. If we regain that confidence, part of that is regaining the confidence of witnesses to come forward with evidence. New technology that has been discussed as part of the action plan, such as the use of CCTV and facial recognition and so on, when used effectively may well reduce the need for live witnesses to give evidence, if the evidence is incontrovertible.

[Mark Garnier]

Thank you very much.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

Q Good morning. I want to talk a bit about knife crime. I am sure all of us have constituents who have been a victim of knife crime or affected by it. Can you speak about the work you are doing to reduce knife crime and whether you think the provisions in the Bill will improve the situation?

Chief Constable Stephens: Absolutely. The National Police Chiefs’ Council has a knife crime working group, which has been working closely with colleagues in the Home Office for a number of years. I would say that the provisions in the Bill have been drafted in very close consultation with the team. We are very concerned about the use of weapons to intimidate and threaten, not least when they are used in violence. I am conscious of time, but I could provide the Committee with some written examples of where we think the new provisions would help—for instance, the taunting of rival gangs on social media using particular weapons—and the provisions that currently exist and would be strengthened by the Bill. We very much welcome these provisions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Garnier]

Q I want to pick up on a question I asked the previous witness about prosecutions of retail criminals such as shoplifters and people who assault shop workers. One of the complaints I have had from the police in my constituency is that where they do make an arrest and bring a prosecution, two things happen. The first is that, more often than not, the criminal gets a suspended sentence and is then back to commit more crime the following day, which is very frustrating for the retailer. The other problem is that the retailer will have to give up a day to give evidence to the court; and quite often they work in a small, one or two-man or woman business. You have a loss of earnings for that retailer, who then suddenly finds the same criminals back in their shop the next day.

Baljit Ubhey indicated assent.

[Mark Garnier]

Q Baljit, you are nodding very enthusiastically. I will go to Mr McGill first and then Baljit. Generally, do you have any comments about that? Is it a well-known problem and does the Bill in any way come to help in that?

Gregor McGill: It is difficult to say. Sentencing is a matter for the court. The police investigate and arrest, send the file to us, we make a decision, take to the court and the court sentences if there is a guilty verdict. The kind of person who regularly does retail theft will often—not always, but often—have addiction or illness issues, which will mean that they will often be stealing to fund an addiction.

Speaking as someone who has been a prosecutor for 33 years, I can say that I recognise what you are saying. When I went to the magistrates court, I regularly saw the same people attending for the same offences, so I accept that it must be frustrating. We are beholden to the law, we have to apply the law and the law must take its course. People serve their sentence and that is what happens. There is not much more we can do in those circumstances, but I understand the frustration.

[Mark Garnier]

Q You end up with a negative spiral, where you have less enthusiasm from the victim to prosecute the crime. Baljit, do you want to leap in on that?

Baljit Ubhey: I recognise the frustration, the challenge and, as you say also, having to give up time to give evidence. Unless you can prove the case without having that witness give evidence, it is challenging. We spoke earlier about CCTV and other ways. Where we can look at using other evidence, we should do that proactively, but often in these cases currently, we need the individual who has been the victim to give evidence. I can absolutely understand the frustration if the person is back. If they have a suspended sentence, which can be triggered, but I recognise the frustration.

[Mark Garnier]

Q Are the courts letting down the CPS, the police and the victims?

Baljit Ubhey: I would not say that. I do not think it is a question of the courts letting down. Sentencing, which is a matter for the courts, is a complicated and difficult balancing exercise, as my colleague has just said. Often, the people who are committing the offences have a range of issues that will go into the balance when looking at sentencing. I certainly would not say that people are letting down; I think it is just a challenge.

[Mark Garnier]

That is helpful. Thank you.

[The Chair]

I thank the witnesses for their evidence.