Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Maria Miller and Crispin Blunt

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

Because the existing arrangement pre-dates the European convention on human rights, as the hon. Gentleman knows. That is the anomaly. Furthermore, it is not legally possible to restrict—

[Mr Blunt]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Maria Miller]

May I make a tiny bit of progress before taking my hon. Friend’s intervention?

Furthermore, it is not legally possible to restrict the approved organisations approach only to humanism. There can be no basis to justify a difference of treatment between one belief organisation and another, and if we did so we would be vulnerable to legal challenge—the very point that the Attorney-General made. If the amendment were accepted, I would have to consider whether I could sign a section 19(1)(a) statement, indicating that in my view the provisions of the Bill are compatible with the European convention on human rights, on the introduction of the Bill in another place. I would probably have to sign a section 19(1)(b) statement that I cannot state that in my view the provisions of the Bill are compatible with the convention, because of the different treatment of humanists and other belief organisations. That is clear, it is a statement of fact and it is entirely consistent with the situation outlined by the Attorney-General.

As my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General said, the amendment would clearly make the Bill incompatible with the European convention on human rights. This is a complicated issue that could be looked at further in the other place, but I want to make it clear to the House today that if the issue is discussed in the Lords, further information can be provided if that is requested and required. I am happy to write to the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston, and to place a copy of my letter in the Library, setting out the legal objections offered to the House today. I hope that would help to inform proceedings in the other place. I would be happy to copy the letter to the Liberal Democrat spokesman.

[Maria Miller]

I am happy to say that the letter would be a comprehensive statement of the concerns that I have. I have covered many of those today, but I will consider whether there are any that I have not included for reasons of time. I am happy to be as helpful as I can.

[Mr Blunt]

My right hon. Friend has advanced the rather preposterous proposition that the United Kingdom’s accession to the European convention on human rights is now acting to limit the rights of members of our population—humanists—to conduct marriages. That goes to the central point. I will be happy if she can give the House the assurance that the Government are in principle in favour of humanists conducting marriage, and that they will use the resources at their disposal to find a way of getting that on to the statute book. If it is not going to happen in the course of the Bill—I do not want the Bill delayed, any more than anyone else—at least the Government can make that statement of policy intent.

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend may not have fully understood the argument being put forward by the Attorney-General. The issue is that the amendments discriminate in favour of one group over another. Humanists are being singled out for particular treatment. I am very happy to set out the argument fully. This is a different situation from—

[Mr Blunt]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Maria Miller]

Will my hon. Friend allow me to respond to his intervention before he intervenes on me again?

This is a particularly difficult area. Marriage law and the principles behind it have evolved over many centuries, as the hon. Member for Rhondda pointed out. Yes, there are anomalies in some areas, but we are talking about a particular set of amendments relating to humanists and the problem that would be faced if they were incorporated in the Bill. It is not the Government’s policy to extend marriage in the way that my hon. Friend is talking about. Humanists can already get married. The Bill is all about ensuring that people who cannot currently get married—same-sex couples—are able to do so. That should be the focus of our discussions.

I also draw hon. Members’ attention to the confusing and contradictory nature of the amendments. Is humanism non-religious, as suggested in the definition of approved organisations in new clause 15? If so, would the protections in the Bill for religious organisations apply? There was some confusion about that, particularly as to whether this would allow the marriage of same-sex couples. Or is humanism religious, as suggested in amendments 20 and 21, which add reference to approved organisations to the definition of a “relevant religious organisation”? Are we clear what humanism means in legislative terms, and who the definition would catch? The amendments simply highlight some of the problems that would arise from trying to shoehorn a new category of marriage into the current legal framework.

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Maria Miller and Crispin Blunt

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

Perhaps my hon. Friend would forgive me if I draw my remarks to a close, as the House has had a great deal of discussion on the matter today and I am not sure he was available for the earlier discussions on this group of amendments.

I say to colleagues across the House that we must show our commitment to the ability of same-sex couples to be married. We have to show that we are not diverted but that we will make sure that we consider in full the opportunities of extending civil partnerships to heterosexual couples. We can achieve that if colleagues vote through new clause 16, as I said, but we need to make sure that we are prioritising now the need for the choice for same-sex couples to be able to get married, not further choice among heterosexual couples. That is an important measure that the Government can put forward today and it has support from those on the Labour Front Bench and on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench.

Many of the issues that we have discussed today were discussed when the Bill was before the House back in 2004. When the issue of extending civil partnerships to opposite-sex couples came before the House, the then Minister, Jacqui Smith, ruled it out, saying:

“That is not a matter for the Bill”—[Official Report, 12 October 2004; Vol. 425, c. 179.]

That is the stance that we are taking today. The then Minister in the House of Lords, Baroness Scotland, said:

“This Bill does not undermine or weaken the importance of marriage and we do not propose to open civil partnership to opposite-sex couples.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 April 2004; Vol. 660, c. 388.]

[Mr Blunt]

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the review that takes place will include the proposition put forward so ably by our hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland)?

[Maria Miller]

I think that my hon. Friend has heard me say already that what we are very clear about and focused on is ensuring that the passage of the Bill is not impeded and that we will look carefully and in detail at the way civil partnerships could be taken forward in future but we have to do that in the right way. The House would expect us to come forward with a considered recommendation that has been fully consulted on, and that is what we intend to do.

I think that we have had a full and frank debate, and I thank all Members who have taken the time to contribute. I think that the manner of the debate has been in the best fashion of this House. We have listened to each other and considered the arguments. We will ensure that the Bill, as it goes forward for its second day on Report tomorrow, can be considered in the proper manner.

Equal Marriage Consultation

Debate between Maria Miller and Crispin Blunt

Tuesday 11th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Lady will know that that was a question in the consultation. There was not the demand in the consultation for the change she describes, but it is also important to note that our priority is to allow same-sex marriage, not to overhaul marriage law. That is where I want to keep the focus.

[Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and in particular the change in the Government’s position as a result of the consultation on lifting the proposed proscription on religious organisations conducting same-sex marriages. May I issue her a word of caution? It might be better to leave religious institutions to manage their own internal discipline on whether they take part in this, rather than our legislating for it.

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is no way in which the Government want to become involved in the philosophy of our religious institutions. It is ultimately for them to take their stance, whether it is the Church of England making it clear up front that it does not wish to be involved in this—although it has the right to change that position over time if it wants—or any other religious institution.

Same-sex Marriage in Churches

Debate between Maria Miller and Crispin Blunt

Monday 10th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is right to bring up the issue of prisoner voting—it is something that many in the House feel strongly about—but it is not the same as marriage. The European convention on human rights contains clear protections for religious belief, and the fact that marriage is at the heart of many religious institutions’ beliefs means that it is clearly protected. As I have said, we believe that rulings in European case law have put this matter beyond doubt.

[Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

Before my right hon. Friend gives us the Government’s proposals in response to the consultation tomorrow, may I thank the Prime Minister through her for his constitutionally rather unusual personal statement on Friday and again thank him as leader of the Conservative party for intending to give Conservative Members of Parliament a free vote? On an issue such as this, that is something we should see across the House.

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is right to say that this is all about balancing freedom of the individual with equality—freedom for people of faith to follow the views of their faith and freedom for individuals in same-sex relationships to take part in civil marriages in the way as heterosexual couples do.