Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Maria Eagle and Jesse Norman

Thursday 14th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Jesse Norman]

As my hon. Friend will know, the Government are already transforming connectivity through the south-west by creating a continuous dual carriageway along the A30, from the M5 through to Camborne. In due course, we aim to extend this to Penzance. My hon. Friend has been a strong campaigner on this issue and I recognise his concerns, particularly for his constituents in Crowlas.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

My constituent Frances Molloy lost her 19-year-old son Michael in a coach crash caused by a 20-year-old tyre bursting on the coach that he was travelling on. Two other people lost their lives and others suffered life-changing injuries. Will the Minister now commit to allowing my Bill—the Tyres (Buses and Coaches) Bill—to pass through this House, instead of getting his Whip to shout “Object” at every opportunity?

[Jesse Norman]

I am very glad that the hon. Lady has raised this question because if she has paid close attention, she will know that we issued a written statement only a few days ago setting out a clear pattern of actions ever since Mrs Molloy raised these serious concerns with my predecessors. Those actions include guidance that has reduced the number of infractions to very low levels. We have also commissioned new research, on which my officials have met with and briefed Mrs Molloy and the hon. Lady. There really can be no question but that we have to make policy based on evidence; when that evidence is in, we will make the policy.

Petroleum Licensing (Exploration and Production) (Landward Areas) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Regulations 2016

Debate between Maria Eagle and Jesse Norman

Wednesday 1st March 2017 General Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Jesse Norman)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate hon. Members of all parties on coming along this morning at this early hour to take part in this debate.

I start by restating the Government’s commitment to ensuring that the UK has secure energy supplies that remain reliable, affordable and clean. Shale gas has the potential to be a domestic energy source that can contribute to our security of supply, help to achieve climate change objectives, and create jobs and economic growth.

Gas is the cleanest of the fossil fuels and still meets a third of our energy demand. We will need it for many years to come. Members of the public are understandably worried about a process that has not been used onshore much before now. I want to use this opportunity to reassure them and provide a clear explanation of why this new industry is in the national interest and will be safely carried out.

First, let me assure the hon. Member for Southampton, Test that the Government are clear that shale development must be safe and environmentally sound. The UK has more than 50 years of experience of safely regulated oil and gas exploration, and we have world-class independent regulators who will not allow operations to go ahead if they are dangerous to the environment or to local communities. We are confident that we have a robust regulatory regime in place. To reinforce those regulations, the Infrastructure Act 2015 introduced a range of requirements that must be met before an operator can carry out hydraulic fracturing, and ensure that they do so in a responsible, sustainable and safe way. They include the exclusion of hydraulic fracturing in protected areas.

The Onshore Hydraulic Fracturing (Protected Areas) Regulations 2016 ensure that the process of hydraulic fracturing cannot take place at depths above 1,200 metres in national parks, the broads, areas of outstanding national beauty, world heritage sites and areas that are the most vulnerable to groundwater pollution. When those regulations were passed, we recognised that concerns had been expressed about fracking from wells drilled at the surface of some protected areas. The Government at the time therefore decided that safeguards should also be applied to surface activities in protected areas. As a result, further regulations were laid before Parliament on 31 October last year and delivered through the petroleum licensing regime.

These landward areas regulations, which were prayed against, serve to strengthen further the protections already in place for protected areas. They should, I hope, assure the hon. Member for Southampton, Test that special protection will be accorded to sensitive areas. The surface restrictions in the landward areas regulations apply to the same areas detailed in the protected areas regulations, as well as to sites of special scientific interest.

[Maria Eagle]

It is excellent to hear the Minister read a speech written before he heard the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test. Will he address some of the specific points made by my hon. Friend about the volume and definition of relevant hydraulic fracturing?

[Jesse Norman]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for anticipating the point in my speech at which I will address the questions. Let me finish, if I may, the process of not merely introducing the importance of shale gas but touching on the way in which the regulations have been structured and why that is so.

As I said, the regulations serve to strengthen the protections already in place for protected areas and to extend special protection to sensitive areas. The surface restrictions apply to the same areas detailed in the protected areas regulations as well as sites of special scientific interest and Ramsar and Natura 2000 sites. That is further evidence of the Government’s recognition of the importance of protecting key areas around the country. I stress that even outside those areas—the hon. Member for Southampton, Test recognised this point—a company looking to develop shale gas will still need to obtain all the necessary permissions, including planning and environmental permits, before hydraulic fracturing can be carried out. That is in addition to the requirements of the regulations. As part of the licence, permission and permit procedures, the environmental impact of operations and any risks associated with them are assessed by regulators and through the planning system on a case-by-case basis.

All oil and gas sites need permits under the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 as well as planning permission from the relevant planning authority. The national planning policy framework and supporting practice guidance clearly state that, in respect of minerals such as shale oil and gas, new development should be appropriate for its location. If the risks of a proposed shale activity are deemed unacceptable, the environmental regulators will simply not allow that activity to go ahead, irrespective of the area involved.

[Jesse Norman]

The Government’s position remains unchanged that there should be no surface fracturing within those protected areas. That is the question raised at present. Of course it is possible to fracture from outside national parks beneath them, 1,200 metres below the earth, which is 800 metres below the normal lowest levels of any water sites. That is at least 1,200 metres below the surface of the national park. That is the form of the protection.

[Maria Eagle]

I wish to press the Minister on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test about the definition of relevant hydraulic fracturing in proposed new section 22A(2)(c). It clearly sets out the minimum number of cubic metres of fluid to be used at any instance or stage, or that a total of 10,000 cubic metres is used. That suggests that if the total is less than 10,000 cubic metres and 1,000 cubic metres of fluid are not used at any stage, that activity will not meet the definition of relevant hydraulic fracturing. Therefore, the regulations do not prevent such activity from taking place in protected areas and even in national parks. Am I correct about that?

[Jesse Norman]

Perhaps I can reassure the hon. Lady. The point of the regulations is precisely to ensure that smaller scale operations meet an equivalent range of safeguards to those set out in the Petroleum Act 1998. In some cases there may be local activities that are subject to all of the usual procedures and, if they are not hydraulic fracturing, they are captured by separate rules. However, hydraulic fracturing in national parks has been banned. That is the Government’s position.

I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the fact that even at the sub-surface level, protections are in place to ensure not merely that hydraulic fracturing using more than 10,000 cubic metres of fluid cannot be done, but that hydraulic fracturing using more than 1,000 cubic metres of fluid at any one stage cannot be done either. That is a comprehensive response to the question.

[Jesse Norman]

No. The position is that “well pad”, as the hon. Gentleman knows, describes the location in which a well is drilled. That term was defined in paragraph 3.33 of the Government’s response to the landwards regulations consultation. Further consideration may be needed of whether a more explicit definition is required elsewhere, but what is in the response is clear. To give him comfort, let me reiterate that a well pad counts as being in a protected area if any part of it is in that area. There should be no ambiguity about that; it is what the response to the consultation says. I take his point, but it has already been addressed.

If I may continue with what I was saying, I should emphasise that the shale gas resources beneath this country have enormous potential, which we as a country should not underrate. We have a very secure regime in place.

[Maria Eagle]

Will the Minister give way?

[Jesse Norman]

I have already taken two interventions from the hon. Lady—perhaps she will allow me to complete what I was saying. We have a thoroughly effective set of permitting permissions and governing legislation in place. This country therefore cannot be compared in any fair way to other countries in which fracking may have taken place under different regimes. We have an excellent track record—one of the best in the world—when it comes to protecting the environment. I am confident that the commitment to restrict surface activities, which is being implemented through landward areas regulations and the policy statement, will complement the protected areas regulations and further strengthen the protections that are afforded to these sensitive areas.