Banking (Responsibility and Reform)

Margot James Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman would come up with some ideas, yet he took a rather lengthy intervention to demonstrate that Labour has no ideas about what to do. Let me set out some of the structural measures we are taking to tackle the supply of debt and equity finance to businesses, and SMEs in particular. We are continuing the enterprise capital funds, and we are simplifying and refocusing the venture capital trusts and enterprise investment scheme to encourage more equity investment in start-ups.

[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

The issue of lending to small and medium-sized businesses is much more complex than the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) suggested. Some months ago I spent a day at Barclays SME sector lending centre in Birmingham. It is clear that many small businesses are focusing on paying down their existing debts, building up reserves, and using their existing overdraft facilities at around the 50% mark. Does my hon. Friend not agree that that is one of the causes of the problem?

[Mr Hoban]

Indeed. My hon. Friend has made an important point which should be noted by the Opposition. Net lending takes into account not just banks’ gross lending but decisions that businesses make to pay down their debt, and that is what we are seeing. We are seeing businesses deleverage in the same way as banks are deleveraging. I do not know whether the Labour party believes that banks should stop businesses paying down their debt in order to force up the net lending figures.

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[Mr Meacher]

I wholly agree with the hon. Gentleman. The mega-bonuses go along with small businesses having to pay exorbitant interest charges, if they can get a loan at all. The Financial Secretary says that the Government are doing their best with RBS, but why do the Government not tell RBS what level of business lending there should be and what the conditions on it should be?

[Margot James]

In fact, RBS has a reasonably good record of lending to small and medium-sized enterprises. It just missed its Merlin targets. It launched a new product at the end of last year for businesses with low fixed interest rates, no early repayment charges and no fees for the first three months. It is above the market average for small business loans. Some 40% of all SME loans are from RBS, which is—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I say gently to the hon. Lady that interventions must be brief. There is substantial pressure on time and I would like to accommodate Members.

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[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point and I hope that some of my comments later will enthuse her about my stance on that issue.

Not many people would disagree that we need to move from irresponsible banking practice to responsible but successful banking, from poor Government regulation to effective regulation, from bailing out the banks to getting taxpayers’ money back, from the state ownership of banks to putting them back into private ownership, and from the state guaranteeing banks to ensuring that they stand on their own two feet and are not too big to fail. We need to draw some important distinctions when we consider such matters. There is a distinction between taxpayer-owned banks and private banks and we also need to take into account the taxpayer guarantee. When we consider irresponsible bankers—who now seem to be epitomised by Fred Goodwin, who should not be singled out but seems to be taking the brunt of the blame for all the irresponsibility in the banking industry—there should be a distinction between their type of banking and the more responsible banking that many are trying to promote.

One person who was brought in to try to promote more responsible banking and to get RBS back on its feet was Stephen Hester. He came in and took on a job, and although we might all agree or disagree with the definition of the success that he was tasked with bringing about, the fact is that he was given that definition—I think by the Labour party, when it was in government—and now Labour seems to want to move the goalposts and change the definition of success or failure within his remit.

[Margot James]

Despite the fact that the opening speech from the Opposition spokesman was couched in such reasonable terms, did my hon. Friend see the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury on “Newsnight”, remarking that Stephen Hester’s bonus was a reward for failure? Does my hon. Friend not agree that that is a gross distortion of the reality? He will agree, I have no doubt, that Stephen Hester has brought many more benefits to RBS.

[Mr Jones]

I concur absolutely with my hon. Friend’s comments. Had it not been for the fact that Stephen Hester decided not to take his bonus, I suspect that tonight’s motion would have vilified him—

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[Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)]

In opening the debate, the shadow Business Secretary stressed the importance of a strong financial sector and called for a new culture, given the high pay and excessive bonuses that we have seen. Many of us on the Government Benches agreed with what he said in that direction and with the overall tone that he struck. He was asked how much money had been given away in bonuses under the last Government. According to my figures, £66 billion was paid out in bank bonuses under the last Government. Much of that was encouraged by the last Government, for the massive tax revenues that it generated, with more than 50% coming back to the Exchequer.

Much has been made of the linkage between businesses and bank lending, but I would dispute that. We need to see much more lending to small businesses, but, as I explained in an intervention, the reason for the current lending issues is not just that the banks will not lend. Opposition Members do businesses a disservice by continuing to promulgate the myth that banks will not lend, because one reason that businesses are reluctant to approach banks is that they think they will be rejected. We must not engage in too much rhetoric, accusing the banks of not lending, when RBS, for example, grants 85% of the loan applications that it receives from small and medium-sized enterprises.

[Mr Umunna]

First, I accept that the reason there is not as much lending to SMEs as one would expect is not just because of the banks, but because of people’s confidence in the economy—one might argue that the Government’s policies have had an effect on that. Secondly, I pointedly made it clear in my speech that it is not just a question of the banks not getting the money out of the door to robust, profitable businesses; rather, it is a question of their relationship with their business customers in this day and age. Often, people are put on the phone to some person in a regional office who knows nothing about their business and is therefore not in a position to assess the risk properly.

[Margot James]

First, on the causes of why businesses are not seeking loans to invest, that has much more to do with the eurozone crisis and the global economy in general. For any company seeking to export, there is a general nervousness across the world—not just in the west, but in China and the far east. Secondly, I agree with the hon. Gentleman about banks losing a lot of skills over the past 10 to 20 years in managing their business customers, but I see signs of change. I visited Barclays in Birmingham a couple of months ago, and I sensed the real commitment, along with an upgrading of skills, that that bank—to name one—is making to its business customers.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Margot James]

I will give way one more time and then I must make progress.

[Steve Brine]

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend’s speech. Further to her discussion with the shadow Business Secretary, there are new entrants to the high street lending market, which I think, without name-checking them and giving them the publicity, will shake up the “Computer says no” culture. [Hon. Members: “Name them.”] Virgin Money is coming on to the high street, and it will shake up that culture. Sometimes we are in danger of talking about just the traditional high street banks and lenders, when there are new entrants coming into the market that will really shake things up and change things.

[Margot James]

I thank my hon. Friend for that excellent intervention. Indeed, I attended a Virgin-sponsored event last week at which its youth capital fund was launched, to try to get money available for young entrepreneurs as seed finance, so I very much agree with his point.

The Opposition want us to raise taxes—again—to fund a youth unemployment initiative, but I strongly object to the motion. We cannot do enough for youth unemployment—I agree with that. It is an absolute scourge in my constituency, so I am pleased about the new proposals we are seeing, with the youth contract getting £1 billion in funding, which will create 410,000 work opportunities for our young people. We are also seeing record numbers of apprenticeships across the country. I would therefore argue that the Government are doing all they can to support young people back into work, which I absolutely agree is a challenge facing us all.

I want to speak on behalf of taxpayer interests, because we all own a stake in two of our high street banks. I also want to talk a bit about the protection of our tax revenues, as well as employment in the financial services sector, because I fear that by raising yet another tax on bonuses—on employment, essentially—we are jeopardising that investment. The shadow Business Secretary is the acceptable face, perhaps, of the Opposition, but many other Opposition Members, including the shadow Chief Secretary, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), alighted on one individual—Stephen Hester—a couple of weeks ago, repeating the mantra that “It’s all about rewards for failure.” The record really ought to be set straight when it comes to RBS. She should not judge the performance of that company just on the share price, and she is peddling a half-truth when she does so. She should look at the repair of the company’s balance sheet and the extensive disposal programme undertaken by RBS, which is on track despite incredibly difficult market conditions. The capital ratios have been improved, with SME lending by the bank making up 40% of total bank SME lending, which is higher than its market share. This country and its taxpayers would be dealt a mighty blow if the chief executive, Stephen Hester, were to react to the terrible publicity that he has had to endure by leaving that taxpayer-owned bank. Who do the Opposition think would want to take his place, after all that has happened?

On the question of the bonus tax—I shall choose my words carefully—I feel that taxes are plenty high enough already. The Opposition are proposing to raise them even higher, however. On any employment income at the level of bank bonuses, the higher rate tax of 50% applies. With employers’ national insurance and a degree of personal national insurance on top of that, the effective tax rate on some of those bonuses is already more than 60%. Let us not forget, too, that under the Government’s proposals, everything in a state-owned bank bonus apart from £2,000 in cash has to be deferred and taken in shares. If the individual then sells their shares, that will incur capital gains tax at the increased rate of 28%.

I shall finish by issuing a warning to Members on both sides of the House. In the days of the last-but-one Labour Government, under whom I grew up in the 1970s, the top marginal rate of tax was 98%. Do the Opposition really want to take us back to those times, during which enterprise was absolutely stifled?