Local Government Finance Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Rob Marris]

I shall focus on proposed subsection 2(a) as inserted by amendment 54, asking for a review into the future of business rates, and why I think the Government ought to support the amendment and accede to that request. I will make a few brief remarks as to why I think a wide-ranging review is necessary.

I referred earlier this morning to the fact that businesses could be faced with six different and overlapping rates: business rates, business rate supplements, business improvement districts, BRS-BIDs, the infrastructure levy and the combined authority supplement or levy. It is a very complex system, it is getting more complex, and it is overlapping.

Some proposals in the Bill would be delayed were a review brought in. The Opposition asked for evidence from the Government on the rationale for bringing in the changes and what they would in fact do. We asked whether there is evidence that the incentivisation—much heralded by the Government—will take place. In the course of the Committee’s consideration of the Bill thus far, I have made six direct requests of the Minister. My excellent researcher, Imogen Watson, has dug out the number of occasions on which the Government were asked for evidence for the measures that would introduced under clause 42 and their phasing, which would be delayed by amendment 53. The Government could have put forward evidence 33 times, and they singularly failed to do so on every occasion.

We read all over the press about the absolute mess with the evidence, which has been provided to one set of MPs—apparently it has been produced for Government MPs, but not, disrespectfully, for Opposition MPs. Certainly my four hon. Friends in the room have received no such evidence. Also, there is conflicting evidence. The Secretary of State—he is a west midlands MP, like me and the Minister—has put forward figures that seem to be contradictory.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, however. According to The Times this morning, an area that was going to be a winner under the system will, under the second round of figures released by the Government, now be a loser. That area is represented by my parliamentary neighbour and the Chief Whip, the right hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson). When the Chief Whip represents a constituency that will now be a loser, some of the changes may be altered or delayed, and delay is what amendment 54 seeks.

I agree with the FSB and my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West that the whole system of taxation on businesses at the local level needs to be revamped. Amendment 54 opens the way for that by asking for a review of the future of business rates. Contingent on that review would necessarily be a look at the broader picture. As the FSB’s letter suggested some time ago, we should be looking at a turnover tax, rather than the bricks and mortar taxes that are reinforced by the Bill’s provisions. They are old-fashioned, and we need a more wide-ranging approach.

[Mr Jones]

I thank the hon. Member for Harrow West for tabling the amendments, which would delay the commencement of the majority of the Bill’s provisions. Amendment 52 would delay the commencement of the Bill until 1 April 2019, making exceptions for

“provisions relating to telecoms relief, guidance about notices relating to non-domestic rates and the provision relating to preparatory expenditure for digital services”.

In amendment 54, the hon. Gentleman takes an alternate position, this time proposing that commencement, with the same provisions excepted, be delayed until after the Secretary of State

“has conducted a review into the future of business rates, and…has assessed the impact of the future of business rates on local government finances.”

We have been clear that the Government’s commitment is to implement the 100% business rate retention reforms for the financial year 2019-20 and to make the associated arrangements ahead of that to ensure that that is possible.

The hon. Gentleman raised a point about the annual local government finance settlement. The finance settlement as it stands will continue to be agreed, as is the case now, for the years up to 2019-20. For 2019-20, we will need to lay regulations in advance to ensure the details of the new system are in place for April 2019. I hope that deals with the concern that the hon. Gentleman expressed.

The Bill also provides the framework for the reformed system. Establishing the framework now gives us the opportunity to continue to work with local government and business in the coming months on the details of the reforms. We know that councils in particular welcome that approach. It ensures that councils have continued opportunity to shape the design and detail of the system on the basis of the certainty put in place by the framework provided by the Bill.

That approach echoes the implementation of the 50% rates retention system. Given the importance of the change, we are allowing more time to work with local government on the detail of these reforms. We will need to do preparatory work to ensure the implementation of provisions is tailored appropriately, including drafting regulations before the start of the 2019-20 financial year. That will be essential to ensure that local authorities are suitably prepared for the changes made by the new arrangements. I am sure that the hon. Member for Harrow West would agree that that is of the utmost importance.

Amendment 52 would not allow for that timely preparation, nor would it allow a timely commencement of a number of other provisions in the Bill that directly support businesses and premises owners. It would delay the introduction in rural rates relief, meaning that local shops in rural areas would pay more. It would also delay our commitment to enable authorities to grant reliefs for public toilets, ensuring that those important local amenities are protected.

Amendment 54 proposes that progress on reforms delivered in the Bill should be halted to allow for a review of the business rates system. As I hope the hon. Gentleman is aware, the Government undertook a review of the business rates system as recently as 2015. In fact, the Bill seeks to implement some of the important commitments that the Government made in response to that review. Amendment 54 would risk the delivery of them.

The 2015 review asked for views on the future of the business rates system and received 269 responses from councils and businesses of all sizes up and down the country, as well as business groups and others with an interest, such as rating agents and think-tanks. A clear message from those responses was a majority in favour of retaining a property-based tax. Respondents agreed with the Government’s view that property-based taxes were easy to collect, difficult to avoid and had a clear link with local authority spending.

[Rob Marris]

I have just checked the Bill. The Minister indicated that were the amendments to be agreed that would delay the implementation of relief for rural shops under clause 7. However, under clause 42, clause 7 would not come into force immediately anyway.

[Mr Jones]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman is right that it comes into force in April 2018. However, if we took the view advocated by the amendment he supports, that change would potentially not be made until 2019 or later.

Local Government Finance Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Thomas]

I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that the local government finance settlement debate will continue to take place. It is an opportunity for Members across the House to continue to scrutinise not only local government finance as it operates at the moment but, crucially, as we get more clarity, how business rates might end up working when 100% devolved—goodness only knows, we need that clarity.

We have no sense of how the so-called fair funding review will work for each individual local authority. We have no sense as yet of the consequences of the detail of the financial regulations to accompany the Bill. It will therefore be helpful for us to continue to have the opportunity to debate such matters on the Floor of the House and to explore what they mean for each of our local authorities and the public services that they provide to the people of England generally.

It would be helpful to hear a little more from the Minister about any further arrangements for consultation with business. It seems a little odd that before the Bill is commenced, in the light of the huge concern about the business rates revaluation that has hit the media of late, there will not be further detailed consultation with business through local enterprise partnerships. Here is a quote from the Treasury press release that accompanied the previous Chancellor—before he was sacked for incompetence by the current Prime Minister—which outlined how the infrastructure premium would operate:

“Directly elected mayors—once they have support of local business leaders through a majority vote of the business members of the Local Enterprise Partnership—will be able to add a premium to business rates”.

Yet there has been no mention by the Minister of local enterprise partnerships in any of his speeches to date. He might prefer me to have mentioned it earlier in the proceedings—perhaps his memory might have come back to him at that point about why he made the change and decided to cut out local enterprise partnerships from the Bill. It would be good to hear a little more from the Minister about how local enterprise partnerships will be involved in the coming months.

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

I am a little surprised, given that when we were talking this morning about timing and implementation of the various clauses in the Bill, the Minister prayed in aid clause 5, on indexation, and clause 7. When he talks this afternoon about developing policy in conjunction with local authorities and liaising—my verb, not his—it would be good if we had some evidence. He challenged my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West on whether Labour supports clause 7, on rate relief for rural shops, and clause 5, on indexation, to which my hon. Friend gave a clear answer. The Minister relied on those clauses as examples of clarity and the way forward, but if they are so clear, why will their implementation be delayed?

[Mr Jones]

We have made it quite clear why those matters are to be implemented in that sequence. I made it clear earlier, in answer to the hon. Member for Harrow West, that we consulted widely with business groups, including local enterprise partnerships. This Government do listen. We have decided to bring forward a system in relation to business rate supplements that reflects the views of business, and when proposals are developed in local areas they will certainly need to take into account the views of the business community in that particular combined authority area.

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[Rob Marris]

I salute my hon. Friends the Members for Oldham West and Royton and for Redcar for their perseverance. As I said this morning, the Opposition have solicited evidence from the Government 33 times before today in Committee—and evidence came there none. As my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton said a moment ago, he wants a strong evidence base, and so does my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar.

My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton also said—I think I have got this right; it was a double negative—that he was not saying that local government does not trust central Government. I have to tell him that I am saying that. I do not trust central Government, and the reason is that they do not want the evidence, because it would lay bare the unfair nature of local government funding and, in particular, local government cuts over the last six years. I suspect that those cuts have taken their toll in communities such as Redcar and Oldham, just as they have in Wolverhampton. The Government keep hoping that people will not notice and, thus far, they have done not a bad job of keeping away from it. New clause 3(4) would solicit evidence on

“the resource need of each billing authority”.

Subsection (5) states:

“It shall be the duty of the Commission to assess the impact of any new requirement imposed upon a billing authority”.

Well, the Government do not want that evidence.

Using my own local authority in the west midlands as an example, the evidence is clear that over the last seven years almost, the cut in the central Government grant to Wolverhampton residents has been more than £200 a head, in one of the most deprived cities in England. Correspondingly, the alliterative Wokingham, in one of the most advantaged places in England—good luck to them—has seen a slight increase in funding per capita. I hope that the Minister is going to get up and astound me and say that he accepts these amendments, but I would be extremely surprised, because they would require evidence to be generated and the Government do not want such evidence.

[Mr Jones]

The distribution of resources and the assessment of the relative needs of local government is an essential feature of the local government finance system, but those elements do not require legislation to determine them. However, I thank Labour Members for providing me with the opportunity to outline the work we are doing in that area.

Before doing so, I would say that I have heard what has been said, particularly by the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton. It was unclear whether the commission would be there to simply divide the money available at the time between local authorities, or whether there is a role for it to determine the total money available and national policy on council tax. Were it the latter, it is important to set out that those issues have been determined for many years by central Government. Successive Governments, including Conservative Governments, the coalition Government of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives, and Labour Governments, have held to those principles.

In regard to the work already under way, we announced the fair funding review last year, which was universally welcomed by the local government sector. The review is conducting a thorough examination of what a relative needs assessment formula should be in a world where local government spending is funded by local government resources and not central grant. The findings of that review will set the initial baseline for the 100% business rate retention system.

From the start, we have recognised the essential role that local government has to play in shaping those reforms. That is why we have been working collaboratively with the Local Government Association, which is responsible for representing a broad range of views held by different sections of local government and their member authorities. That effective working relationship has already seen the establishment of a steering group supported by a number of technical working groups, which my officials co-chair with colleagues from the Local Government Association. That gives local experts a unique opportunity to help shape the review, and all the work of those groups is available online, adding real transparency to the progress of the review.

The process for assessing the relative needs of local government is well precedented and was, of course, followed by the Opposition when Labour was in power. Our collaborative and transparent approach represents a significant improvement on that process. In the summer, we published a call for evidence that set out key questions that the review will address. The Secretary of State has confirmed that he will report back to the House on the progress of that review.

Creating a new commission to consider needs assessment and new burdens, as these new clauses would do, blurs accountability for that important work and would add another significant layer of unnecessary bureaucracy, over-complicating the process for assessing the relative needs of local government. It is important to point out that it would undoubtedly lead to a situation where it simply costs the taxpayer more money.

Our proposals offer a better guarantee of a transparent process, supported by the best available advice from local government and elsewhere. On that basis, I ask the Opposition not to press the new clause.

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[Mr Jones]

That is a really good question and very pertinent in this context. It highlights one of the challenges we have with the Opposition. One party at the general election pledged significantly more money to the NHS than the other party. The Government are now putting an additional £10 billion into the NHS, while the Labour party committed to £1.5 billion extra for the NHS; that shows that the Labour party is raising a bit of a red herring, I think, to hide its embarrassment about not being willing to back the NHS as the Conservative Government have.

[Rob Marris]

May I caution the Minister about praying history in aid and going back to 1990? He referred to 13 years of a Labour Government. Under 13 years of a Labour Government, the real-terms increase in funding for Wolverhampton City Council was 40%; under a Conservative Government, the real-terms cut has been 40%. Under a Labour Government for 13 years, the national debt fell; under a Conservative Government, it has gone up by 70%.

[The Chair]

Order. Before the Minister responds, I should say that I get the sense that the Committee is becoming demob happy. I ask the Minister and the Committee to deal specifically with the response to new clause 4 and not to become partisan and drawn by what has gone on in the past.

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[Rob Marris]

The charge for business rate appeals is understandable, given the regrettable trend of recent years, which started under a Labour Government, of charging for access to justice. However, we also need to see things in the context of something that was raised with me and the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton—the margin of appreciation, as I think it would be called; the flexibility. A business pays a charge and there is an appeal. It wins, but is told that the difference between what it would have been charged and what it will be charged post-appeal is less than 15%. Then it has lost—even though it has won. That does not seem to me to be a good way to proceed.

[Mr Jones]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Harrow West for tabling the new clause as it gives me a further opportunity to remind the Committee of the work that we are doing to improve the business rate appeal system.

The system has always suffered from too many speculative applications clogging it up, causing delays and uncertainty for those ratepayers with genuine cases. It has for far too long been too easy for rating agents to lodge speculative appeals with little or no supporting evidence.

More than 1 million appeals have been made against the 2010 rating list, using the system that was put in place on 1 April 2010. Of those that have been resolved, only 29% resulted in a change to the rating list. With the introduction of a new rating list on 1 April 2017, we have a fresh opportunity to reform the system. Our check, challenge, appeal system will introduce a new three-stage process. We will put the emphasis on early engagement and resolution by all parties to ensure that, where ratepayers and rating agents decide to make a formal challenge, they must bring forward proper evidence cases. In turn, it will support local government, giving it greater certainty over its rates income.

Local Government Finance Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Thursday 9th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

I shall confine my remarks to amendment 30, which would require consultation on multiplier discounts. I get the impression from the Minister’s demeanour that he is not minded to accept it. He can intervene and tell me whether I am wrong, but until I finish speaking, when I am sure he will have been persuaded, I shall proceed on that basis. It surprises me that he is not so minded, because this sort of provision is already in the Bill.

Schedule 2 to the Bill is to do with amending the Local Government Finance Act 1988, including schedule 7 to that Act. Page 45 of the Bill sets out proposed new paragraph 6C of schedule 7. At lines 13 to 20, there is a nice little table. The new paragraph states that, where a multiplier discount is to be introduced by a specified authority, the neighbouring authorities, or related authorities —perhaps to use a term that is not in the Bill—must be notified. I concede to the Minister that they do not have to be consulted—the verb used in the amendment—and that “notify” is different. To read from the table—it is not a long one—the first “Relevant authority” is:

“A district council for a district in a county for which there is a county council”.

It has to notify, “The county council”. Next:

“A county council for an area for which there is a district council”

has to notify

“The district council for each district in the county”.

“A London borough council” that wants to apply a multiplier discount has to notify “The Greater London Authority”, which, conversely, has to notify “Every London borough council”.

As I said, one verb is “notify” and the one in the amendment is “consult”. They are different—I accept that—but they are not a million miles apart. We already have the concept, or something close to it, in schedule 2 to the Bill in the form of proposed new paragraph 6C, so it seems reasonable to think that the Government ought to accept the amendment, which would simply push the concept out from notification to consultation.

[Mr Jones]

I thank the hon. Members on the Labour Front Bench for their amendments, and for giving me the opportunity to address the issues and talk specifically about multiplier discounts. The hon. Gentlemen seem to have gone into things in some detail, which leads me to believe that today could be a very long day—I might need to ring Mrs Jones a little later to tell her that I will be home later than expected.

I hope that the Committee will agree that the measure on the multiplier discount is an important and positive one, which will give councils further levers to attract and incentivise local investment. The effect of amendment 30 would be to require any local authority considering the introduction of a discount to consult its neighbouring authorities before implementing a reduction. We do not believe that that is the right approach, nor do we believe that the amendment is necessary.

One of the main aims of the clause is to allow local authorities to show that they are willing to work hard and be flexible to attract business. However, local authorities already work closely together on many issues, including economic strategy. The amendment would create an unnecessary and complex additional burden on any local authority seeking to introduce a discount. That is precisely the sort of approach from which we are trying to move away.

The purpose of the power in the Bill is to provide local authorities with the tools to incentivise local growth. In exercising the power and in maximising its effect, we expect local authorities to take steps to publicise widely their intention to introduce a multiplier discount.

Clause 6 and schedule 2 already require that, in two-tier areas, the authority introducing the discount must inform the other authorities and the Secretary of State of its intention to specify a multiplier discount before 31 December in the preceding financial year—I hope that that answers the question of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West. Furthermore, in a two-tier area, the Local Government Finance Act 1988 as amended by the Bill and the regulations made under the Act will allow the Government to ensure that the income of a tiered authority will be protected from a discount introduced by another authority.

We consider that there is no need to make unnecessary provisions in the Bill, which is what the amendment would introduce. The Bill already strikes the right balance of providing information to those most directly affected without creating an additional formal burden.

On amendments 48 and 49, it may be helpful to the Committee for me to clarify that clause 6 and schedule 2 already allow an authority to specify a multiplier discount that would apply to all ratepayers in that local authority area. The effect of amendments 48 and 49 would be to allow an authority to apply the multiplier discount only to some properties, for example, on the basis of location, rate or value, or business type.

Although I understand the desire of hon. Members to give local authorities the flexibility to target any reductions in business rates, I do not agree that the amendments are necessary. Billing authorities already have wide-ranging powers to grant discretionary relief to ratepayers in their area. In practice, that already allows authorities to reduce business rate liabilities for a specific sector or area if they wish to do so.

Clause 6 and schedule 2 provide the ability to do something different and to reduce the overall tax rate across the area. I hope that, with the clarifications that I have provided, the Committee is reassured that the amendments are not necessary, that amendment 30 should be withdrawn and that amendments 48 and 49 should not be pressed.

Local Government Finance Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Thursday 9th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Marcus Jones)]

The clause allows local authorities to specify a multiplier discount. The effect will be to enable them to reduce the nationally determined business rates in their area.

Schedule 2 provides two delegated powers. The first enables the Secretary of State to add, vary or amend descriptions of local authorities that can exercise this power, so that he or she can respond to changes in the organisation of local government. The second gives the Secretary of State the power to set a maximum multiplier discount that a relevant authority, as defined in schedule 2, may apply. The Local Government Finance Act 1988, as amended by the Bill, and regulations made under that Act, will allow the Government to ensure that the income of a tiered authority in a two-tier area is protected from a discount introduced by another authority.

We encourage two-tier areas to work together when setting a discount. Under paragraph 6C, the authority introducing a discount must inform the Secretary of State and other affected authorities of its intention to do so by 31 December in the preceding financial year. The list of relevant authorities under the schedule is defined in new paragraph 6A(2) and includes lower and upper-tier authorities, as well as unitary authorities and the Greater London Authority, all of which receive a share of business rates. New paragraph 6B(1) sets out how a multiplier discount must be expressed by an authority. Overall, these changes give local authorities the flexibility to attract business investment, while providing businesses with the stability of knowing that business rates will not increase beyond the national level.

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

My hon. Friends on the Labour Front Bench, whose amendments 45 and 46 would have enabled an increase in rates, will be happy to know that schedule 2 allows that. Paragraph 6 of schedule 2, which starts on line 32 of page 42 of the Bill, amends paragraph 3A of our old friend, schedule 7 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988. Paragraph 6 goes through aspects of multiplier discount and refers, in lines 1 and 2 of page 43, to taking

“the sum of those multiplier discounts.”

I cannot see that the Bill prevents a negative multiplier discount, though I stand to be corrected by the Minister. I look around the room at all the MPs on the Committee; they all studied mathematics far more recently than I did—I make no mention of you, Sir David—but my understanding is that if there is a negative multiplier discount, the result is a positive. That would produce the effect sought unsuccessfully by my hon. Friends through amendments 45 and 46.

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[Rob Marris]

I cannot think that that could possibly happen in any county in England. However, I wonder whether specifying a maximum multiplier discount, which, as I understand it is, in lay terms, a floor below which a local authority must not go, is to do with a Government attempt to shore up local government finances. The present Government and their coalition predecessor nicked loads of money from local authorities, so local authorities without enough money might still be tempted, in a beggar-my-neighbour way, to use the powers provided generally, were it not for schedule 2, to set a multiplier discount at a very low rate.

Of course Government finances are in a complete mess, and the national debt has gone up nearly two thirds in the past six years. There are real problems with the Government finances. They are not under control, and that is reflected in local authority finances. Some local authorities might be tempted to take action that outside observers and the Secretary of State might regard as foolish. What, therefore, does the Secretary of State do? He reserves powers, under schedule 2, to set a maximum multiplier discount.

That goes against the grain of what the Government are professing to do in the Bill—bolstering localism, and giving local authorities non-evidenced incentives to be business-friendly. A local authority cannot get too business-friendly by setting out too much of a multiplier discount, because then the Secretary of State will say, “You cannot do that.” Again, there are contradictory messages. I do not say that nothing my party says is ever contradictory. On occasions it could be pointed out that things I or my colleagues have said are contradictory; that is the human condition. However, we are dealing with a Bill presented by a Government who talk about local control, and schedule 2 contains an example that shows them going in the opposite direction.

[Mr Jones]

I will respond briefly. The hon. Gentleman’s argument and the intervention by the hon. Member for Harrow West showed how confused the Opposition are about this area of policy. I have clearly set out how the clause would operate, and explained that the intention is to allow local authorities to apply a discount to their multiplier if they wish. To respond to the question of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West, the Secretary of State will have the power to stipulate a maximum increase in a business rate supplement, and we are showing some consistency for when things go the other way and an area might want to reduce the multiplier. The clause is therefore not inconsistent with the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 6 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 2

Power to reduce non-domestic rating multipliers

Amendment proposed: 48, in schedule 2, page 44, line 7, at end insert—

‘(1A) A relevant authority shall determine that the multiplier discount shall apply—

(a) to all hereditaments in its area, or

(b) only to some hereditaments in its area (defined by reference to their location, rateable value, class of hereditament or such other factors that the relevant authority determines when specifying the multiplier discount).’—(Jim McMahon.)

See explanatory statement for amendment 49.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[Rob Marris]

I hope the Minister can point to this, because I cannot find it, but my hon. Friend referred to the Chancellor’s announcement that mentioned a five-year period. I cannot find a reference to a five-year period in schedule 3. It may be there and I just cannot see it, or it is somewhere else and the Minister can point it out to me.

I see in schedule 3 more than four pages and five formulae. The ever-helpful Library brief cites on page 37 documentation from the autumn statement saying that this measure

“would reduce business rate revenue by £10 million”.

For a company such as BT, £10 million is not a huge amount of money, but for everyone in this room, it is. Nationally and relatively—I stress “relatively”—it is not a huge amount of money, but we get a four-page schedule and five formulae. That strikes me as completely over the top.

We see in schedule 3—on page 46, lines 30 and 31, page 47, lines 37 to 38, and page 48, coincidentally lines 30 and 31 again—the same wording:

“any conditions prescribed by the Secretary of State by regulations are satisfied on that day.”

So here we have the Secretary of State and more regulations. Then when I look at the power to make regulations in paragraph 12 on page 50 of the Bill, it says:

“any power to make regulations conferred by virtue of this Schedule”—

schedule 3—

“includes power to make provision having effect in relation to times before the coming into force of this Schedule”.

I would like the Minister to talk the Committee through that a bit. No doubt he will say something like this happens all the time, but I am a bit uneasy about what seems on the face of it to be a retrospective power in schedule 3, paragraph 12. That is a little worrying. Even though I appreciate it may be a power that would be used or is intended to be used to lessen the tax on a particular business or set of businesses, I still find the retrospection a little troubling.

[Mr Jones]

The Government intend to support the roll-out of a full-fibre telecommunications infrastructure for all. Full-fibre broadband will deliver a step change in the speed, service quality, security and reliability of broadband services. It will provide important support for a more productive economy and boost the prospects for economic growth.

In the 2016 autumn statement, to which the hon. Member for Harrow West referred, the Government announced £1 billion of new funding to boost the UK’s digital infrastructure. That includes investment of £400 million in a new digital infrastructure investment fund to boost commercial finance for emerging fibre broadband providers. Alongside that package, the Chancellor announced 100% rate relief for a new full-fibre infrastructure in England. Clause 8 and schedule 3 will introduce that relief, which will apply for five years, commencing on 1 April 2017. Hence this part of the Bill will have a retrospective effect. I hope that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West understands the principle behind the retrospection.

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[Rob Marris]

As I understand it—as ever, I am open to correction—the provisions in the clause and accompanying schedule are by nature, to use the Minister’s words, incentives: a financial incentive to encourage, in particular but not only, rural broadband and better internet connections, which we all support. It appears to be—I stress “appears”—a bung for private industry to do something that Ofcom could order it to do. Why are we being asked to do it in the Bill, rather than Ofcom just doing it by mandating companies?

[Mr Jones]

It is clear that the thrust of what we are trying to do, as I said at the outset, is to bring this forward as part of a package—£1 billion of new funding to boost the UK’s digital infrastructure, including £400 million in new digital infrastructure investment and a fund that is dedicated to that—to boost commercial finance for emerging fibre broadband providers. It is important that the hon. Gentleman understands that this measure is designed to widen the market in that sense.

[Rob Marris]

I am grateful for the Minister’s generosity in giving way. The Library briefing gives some figures on what this measure would cost each year, and I know he said he would get on to that. Are the figures for the cost each year included in the £1 billion to which he has referred at least twice, or are they in addition to it?

[Mr Jones]

That is a very good question, which I will write to the hon. Gentleman and the rest of the Committee on. The overall cost, which the hon. Member for Harrow West asked about—he wanted me to go into what the cost was in each of the first five years, but I am not able to do that today so perhaps I can satisfy him in writing—is £60 million over that particular period.

To pick up the thread that I was on, the powers in the schedule will allow the Secretary of State to determine the level of relief to be awarded. As I said, the Government intend to allow telecom operators 100% rate relief, but only for new fibre. That new fibre will of course form part of existing telecoms networks with existing ratings assessments. Through the operation of this scheme, we intend to ensure that relief is only for new fibre, as I have clarified to the Committee. To achieve that, the powers in the schedule will allow us to set, by a formula contained in regulations, the correct level of relief for each property, reflecting the amount of the network that qualifies for the relief. That will be based on a certificate from the valuation office of the amount of rateable value attributable to the new fibre.

Hon. Members will recognise that this is a technical area, but one in which we need desperately to ensure that the provisions are correct. Therefore, my Department will shortly issue draft regulations for consultation on how to implement the relief for new fibre. On that basis, I hope that clause 8 and schedule 3 will stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 3

Relief for telecommunications infrastructure

Amendments made: 38, in schedule 3, page 48, line 16, at end insert—

“6A In section 67 (interpretation: other provisions), in subsection (7), for “43(6)” substitute “43(4B) (so far as relating to England), (4F) and (6), 45(4D)”.”

Section 67(7) of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 provides that certain provisions of that Act apply on a particular day if they apply immediately before the day ends. This amendment extends section 67(7) to cover section 43(4B) of that Act and the new sections 43(4F) and 45(4D) inserted by Schedule 3.

Amendment 39, in schedule 3, page 49, line 29, at end insert—

“10A In section 67 (interpretation: other provisions), in subsection (7), for “47(2)” substitute “54ZA”.”—(Mr Jones.)

Section 67(7) of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 provides that certain provisions of that Act apply on a particular day if they apply immediately before the day ends. This amendment extends section 67(7) to cover the new section 54ZA inserted by Schedule 3.

Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9

Discretionary relief for public toilets

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

Elected Mayors of mayoral combined authorities will have a strategic overview of their areas, so will be well placed to deliver projects that have a significant effect on local economies. The infrastructure supplement provides a unique opportunity to deliver infrastructure investment at a significant scale to benefit local businesses and communities. As I said earlier, that will be infrastructure that would otherwise generally not be built. Clause 17 sets the parameters for how many ways can be used to help to ensure that that is achieved.

Naturally, the supplement can only be spent on the project for which it has been levied. The sums received can be used to pay off loans secured to pay for the project to which the supplement relates, which may well answer one of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West on the west midlands and the idea of some sort of involvement in the Birmingham northern relief road, which I think he was referring to.

[Rob Marris]

I was specifically referring to the M6 toll. If the M6 toll is taken over and is made free, that will create economic development through the west midlands urban centre proper because it will take pressure off the current M6; it is not a question of a northern relief road. The Minister has mentioned again stuff that would not otherwise get built. I am getting the message from him, but I cannot see that in the Bill.

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[Rob Marris]

Clause 33 relates to guidance and, according to subsection (2)(a), that will cover:

“the kinds of projects which may, and may not, be regarded as appropriate ones in relation to which to impose infrastructure supplements”.

Will the Minister give us some idea as to when the guidance is likely to be issued by the Secretary of State and its legal force? In the Bill we have had “direction”, in a different context, and “regulations” used. This is “guidance”, but how strong is guidance? If the Secretary of State gave guidance that school buildings were not to be included in an infrastructure supplement but the Mayor of a combined authority wished to include them and could make an argument that they were infrastructure, who would get their way?

[Mr Jones]

Clause 33, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, will require Mayors to have regard to any guidance that the Secretary of State provides in relation to infrastructure spending. The Bill sets out a wide range of requirements that must be applied to the development of an infrastructure supplement, including who can impose a supplement, restrictions on what it may be used for, the consultation that must take place and what should be included in the prospectus. In addition, the clause provides that the Secretary of State may issue guidance to assist Mayors and businesses in the process. The type of guidance that I would expect to be issued by the Secretary of State would be statutory guidance, so there will be a formal guide for the particular Mayor in a particular area to work to.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 33 to 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.— (Jackie Doyle-Price.)

Local Government Finance Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Thomas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Rob Marris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Jones]

I will. It is always best to hear Back Benchers first.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Marris]

The Minister, who I believe is moving towards suggesting that the amendment should not be accepted, just prayed in aid the consultation with local government representatives. On page 33 of the Bill, proposed new sub-paragraph (2) in schedule 1(12)(4) says:

“Before making a principles of allocation statement, the Secretary of State must consult such representatives of local government as the Secretary of State thinks fit about the general nature of the principles of allocation.”

The Secretary of State could deem two local government representatives fit under that provision. Can the Minister say a little more about how wide the consultation would be? Would it be wider than my extreme example of two, which the Bill would allow?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman’s example was rather extreme. I would envisage that we would properly consult local government in its entirety.

Local Government Finance Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Jones]

I thank the hon. Members for Harrow West and for Oldham West and Royton for the amendment, and for the opportunity to set out why we want to remove levy payments. As the hon. Members have explained, the amendment would retain the Government’s ability to make regulations requiring a levy. As we set out when we announced our intention to move to 100% rates retention, we do not believe that imposing a levy on growth is desirable; nor is it necessary for the purposes of funding the safety net. Through rates retention, we want to encourage and incentivise authorities to work with their businesses and communities to deliver economic growth. We want them to use their powers, through the planning system and more widely, to support development and create the conditions in which business can thrive. Where they do so, we want to allow authorities the benefit of all the growth in their business rates that will follow.

[Rob Marris]

We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West that Maidenhead is paying a 50% levy. That suggests that it has done well in growing its business rates—good for it. Can the Minister tell us what places such as Maidenhead have done to grow their business rates base, so that other councils, such as mine, could learn lessons from Maidenhead?

[Mr Jones]

Certainly. There is good practice happening in local authorities, and I would always recommend the hon. Gentleman’s local authority taking a leaf out of the book of a good Conservative authority that is doing the right thing on growth.

The levy works as a tax on growth, taking up to 50% of any benefit that authorities may have seen. This certainly acts as a disincentive and, for that reason, we have said clearly that we want to remove the Government’s ability to set a levy. Nor do we believe that that the levy is necessary as a way of funding the safety net. To come back to the comments of the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, there are other, fairer ways of dealing with the safety net, the most obvious being to take a top-slice at the point at which we set up the scheme and use that to fund any safety net payments needed.

If there is no need for the levy, there is no need for the levy account. Indeed, if such an account was prepared, there would be nothing to report in it. In that sense, this matter is quite simple: we will abolish the levy, and therefore there is no need for the levy account. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

Such are his high standards, indeed.

Getting back to the real world, I add that amendment 34, by reversing the Bill’s removal of sub-paragraphs 25(2) and (5) of schedule 7B to the Local Government Finance Act 1988, would make it impossible to deliver changes for which local government has asked. The changes we want to make through the Bill mean that, in future, safety net payments need not be made at the end of a financial year. Instead, as with other payments under the scheme, they can be made at the beginning of the year, based on the estimates, and then reconciled at the end of the year once outturn figures are available.

Authorities asked us to make that change as soon as a legislative opportunity arose. The changes made by the Bill have no material effect on what authorities will receive in safety net payments; they simply change the way in which we account for them. I hope that resolves some of the concern of the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton.

In conclusion, the amendments, if allowed to stand, would remove the flexibility that we and the local government sector need to design a safety net regime that is fit for the needs of 100% business rate retention. They would reverse a change that local government welcomes and for which it has long called. I hope that, with that explanation, the hon. Gentleman withdraws amendment 32 and does not move amendments 33 and 34.

[Rob Marris]

I know it is sometimes difficult for Chairs and I wanted to hear what the Minister said to know whether I wanted to speak.

The very helpful Library brief says on page 19:

“It is not yet clear what form, if any, the safety net would take under 100% retention of business rates.”

That was published almost three weeks ago on 19 January. It is singularly disappointing when the Minister comes before a Public Bill Committee of the House of Commons and says, “Oh, I cannot give you any information because the Government want the flexibility.” I understand why Governments want flexibility. When my party was in office, it always wanted flexibility. I kept saying, “I do not think you should have that flexibility in lots of cases.” To use the vernacular, the Minister and his Government ought to show a little more ankle. Otherwise, they are asking us to buy a pig in a poke, which I think is unacceptable in a parliamentary democracy.

We ought to have the information. What is the big rush? This is so that the Government can get the Bill through, with all its flexibility. The amendments would lessen that flexibility, which is why they are good amendments. The Minister has nothing to counterpose that with, except to say, “We’re talking about 97%, but we want the flexibility.” I am sure he wants the flexibility, but that kind of flexibility is not good for councils—not only Wolverhampton City Council, but councils around England—because of the uncertainty.

[Mr Jones]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that local government itself has requested that flexibility?

[Rob Marris]

In that case, the Minister should not have introduced the Bill at this stage or until he has got his ducks lined up.

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[Mr Jones]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for tabling these amendments on the creation and revocation of a business rate pool.

The intention of the amendments seems twofold: to retain the requirement that each relevant authority must agree before the Secretary of State can designate a pool, and to require that a decision to revoke a pool should be approved by Parliament and subject to consultation with the relevant Select Committee. I will deal with each of those in turn.

As a principle, the Government believe that local authorities can achieve greater impact when working together, and that pools of authorities can benefit from working over wider areas to achieve economic growth. That is why we want to continue pooling arrangements under the new business rates retention system. Business rate pools enable the local authorities within them to be treated as a single entity for the purposes of the system, allowing them to co-ordinate their work and take a coherent set of decisions to help secure economic growth over a wider area. Paragraphs 26 and 27 of schedule 1 provide that the discretion to create, vary and revoke pools lies with the Secretary of State, with a new requirement for a statutory consultation with relevant local authorities on the creation and variation of a pool.

We are introducing those changes because, in the Government’s view, pooling has not worked under the current arrangements as well as it could. The current voluntary approach to pools can incentivise the wrong behaviours, leading to examples where pools across functional economic areas have excluded a single authority due to them being perceived as high risk. That undermines the objectives of pooling and potentially reduces the ability of pooling to secure co-operation and coherent decision making across a sensible economic area.

Amendment 47 would remove the provision enabling the Secretary of State to designate a pool at his discretion. That would, in effect, preserve the current arrangements whereby a pool can be designated only if every authority in the pool area has agreed to it. The risk of a single authority being excluded from sensible pooling arrangements would remain. Removing the requirement that all authorities must agree to being designated as a pool will enable the Secretary of State to ensure that pools are created across functional economic areas that maximise opportunities for growth.

We recognise the ongoing need to work with local authorities on sensible pooling arrangements and have introduced a statutory duty to consult with areas on their pooling arrangements. As I said at the outset, the ultimate decision will rest with the Secretary of State, helping to ensure that all authorities in a functional economic area will engage fully in those discussions.

[Rob Marris]

The Minister is saying in terms that the Government are going to introduce a centralising measure because sensible pooling has not always worked to date. I understand that concept. He knows what I am going to say. Could he produce some evidence that pooling arrangements hitherto have not worked properly in some areas? I know he is not saying that that is the case everywhere, but can he give us one example to elucidate why the Government think these centralising powers are necessary in what purports to be a localising Bill?

[Mr Jones]

As I said, there are places where a view has been taken that certain local authorities are too risky to be included in a business rate pool and, therefore, have been excluded. Returning to the theme the Labour party has used—

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Marris]

I want to ask the Minister about one issue. Under paragraph 33(3) of schedule 1, the words

“calculations following local government finance report”

are substituted by

“determination of payments for a relevant year”.

I hope the Minister can reassure me, because that change rings a certain alarm bell. It removes the word “calculations”, which implies to me the use of evidence—a formula and so on—and substitutes the word “determination”, which I infer could be a somewhat opaque and non-transparent decision on financing, thereby moving us further away from an evidence-based, transparent system to a more flexible and less transparent system. I wonder whether the Minister could elucidate—if not today, at some later point.

[Mr Jones]

Thank you, Sir David, for allowing me to respond to the hon. Gentleman. As I mentioned in my quite lengthy speech, local government itself does not believe that the measures being introduced here will reduce transparency. That is certainly not our intention in making the change. I hope the hon. Gentleman is reassured by that.

Question put and agreed to.

Schedule 1 accordingly agreed to.

Clause 2

Loss payments

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I am grateful that the new clauses were tabled, as it gives us an opportunity to consider the appeals system and the implications for local government. There is widespread agreement—this comes back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney was just saying—that the current business rates appeals system needs reform. Too many appeals are held up for too long, and that means costs, delays and uncertainty for ratepayers and local authorities. That is why we have brought forward proposals to reform the system of appeals for ratepayers and local government from 1 April 2017.

From 1 April, the new “Check, challenge, appeal” system will reform the appeals process for ratepayers. The new three-stage process will be easier to navigate and will put the emphasis on early engagement and resolution by all parties. Under the new system, businesses will be more confident that their valuations are correct and that they are paying the right amount of business rates. That in turn will support local government by giving authorities greater certainty over their rates income.

We will ensure that local authorities have a role in the “Check, challenge, appeal” process by giving them the statutory right to provide evidence to the valuation officer. We also recognise, however, that we need to go further in respect of the financial implications of appeals for local government. That is why clause 2 creates a power to make loss payments to local authorities. That will allow us to move towards a system under which the risk of appeals is managed more centrally and shared across the sector. We will then be able to reimburse authorities when they suffer appeal losses due to revaluation errors. That reform has been requested by local government.

Nevertheless, we still have to strike a balance between the interests of local government and the need to maintain fairness for ratepayers. I do not believe the new clauses would correctly strike that balance. New clause 5 would prevent public bodies from using agents or representatives in their appeals. Public bodies are subject to the same rules on business rates as any other ratepayers, and I think it is right that, just as with any other ratepayer, they should have access to professional and expert advice. I think that was the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney was making as a chartered surveyor with significant experience. However, I would expect any public body to be using only qualified and professional representatives, such as members of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors or the Institute of Revenues Rating and Valuation. Members of those bodies must comply with a code of practice for their consultancy and ensure that proper standards are met.

New clause 6 would stop appeals having a retrospective effect of more than six months for large properties. That would clearly be unfair. Ratepayers whose appeals have taken longer to resolve—perhaps for reasons entirely outside of their control—would be penalised by the new clause. I assure the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton that we do act to limit backdating in the system, where it is fair to do so. In 2016, we acted to stop new appeals being backdated to before 1 April 2015. From 1 April 2017, ratepayers will no longer be able to lodge appeals on the current rating list in most circumstances.

I assure hon. Members that, although we do not believe the new clauses are acceptable, we are taking steps to tackle problems with business rate appeals for both ratepayers and local authorities. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman not to press the new clauses.

[Rob Marris]

Looking again at the helpful Library brief, it appears that the Government are dragging their feet again. As the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton no doubt remembers, the Communities and Local Government Committee reported on this issue in June 2016 and found—I have to say I found this figure staggering—that 33% of the rateable value in Sheffield, 40% in the City of London and 34% in Westminster is under appeal. That is a huge amount. For 33% of the rateable value of the city of Sheffield, which I think is the fourth largest city in England, to be under appeal is extraordinary.

On 19 December last year, the Minister in the House of Lords said that the Government are looking at this again, but, as the Library brief pointed out on 19 January, although the Government are looking at the appeal system, it is not yet known how that it going to be done. Here we are seven months after a Select Committee report that highlighted that this is a big problem, and the Government are still faffing around and cannot make up their mind about what they are going to do and what they are going to propose.

I hope that the Minister will stand up and say that I have misunderstood and say, “There is clarity. We know where we are going and what regulations we are going to propose, so we are going to do what lots of Ministers do and publish draft statutory instruments before the conclusion of Committee stage so Members can see where we are going.” But I fear, going by the Minister’s past performance in this Committee, that he is not going to stand up and say that, and that we are going to have continued procrastination and a lack of clarity from the Government about where they want to go in the light of having their much-vaunted flexibility, which I think does a disservice to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Marris]

I wish my hon. Friend good luck with this amendment. Essentially, amendment 20 asks the Government to collate evidence and act upon it. Given what we have heard in the Committee so far, I will be suitably and happily astounded if the Government accept the amendment and the concept that evidence is important.

[Mr Jones]

I thank the hon. Member for Harrow West for his explanation of the intention and effect of amendment 20, which would require a referendum principles report made by the Secretary of State to include conclusions from an assessment of needs as well as details of efficiency savings for local authority areas.

I appreciate the intention behind the amendment, but I do not agree that it would be appropriate to include the suggested information in a principles report. Council tax referendum principles exist for a very specific purpose: to protect council tax payers by defining an excessive increase, so that they can make a final direct decision. It is open to authorities to set large increases and put them to a local referendum if they feel they are necessary to support local services.

Local Government Finance Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Thursday 2nd February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Rob Marris]

No, I will not, because I want to move on and talk about the abolition of the revenue support grant—I am not primarily talking about incentives—which is set out in clause 1(3). I appreciate that the abolition of the revenue support grant would not abolish the discretionary grant-paying power under section 31 of the Local Government Act 2003, but it would replace a mandatory with a discretionary funding approach. The explanatory notes, produced at the behest of the Government, are very helpful in that regard. They lay bare the Government’s intention, which is, in effect, to abandon just-about-managing authorities and to help those that are doing well—a kind of survival-of-the-fittest approach. I say that because paragraph 31 states:

“The removal of revenue support grant, together with provisions ensuring that local government will keep 100% of locally collected business rates, will increase the self-sufficiency of local government by making them less reliant on grant and more reliant on locally raised taxes.”

I understand the concept of self-sufficiency—it can be laudable—but we have to take into account where our country is at, not where we would like it to be at. That is the very point that my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton made about us being one country.

We have heard about the incentives to balance this proposal and about what councils are going to do with their self-sufficiency, but in places such as Wolverhampton, which is one of the most densely populated cities in Europe—presumably because it is such a wonderful place and lots of people want to live there—there is not a lot of spare land. I understand—the hon. Member for North Swindon can correct me if I am wrong—that land is not such a pressing issue in Swindon or, indeed, in Wiltshire.

Hon. Members adverted to what councils might do with the self-sufficiency that the abolition of the revenue support grant in clause 1(3) is ushering in. They might have cheaper car parking. I understand that, for business rates purposes, they might think that will get more people coming in and shopping, and therefore the rental value of shops will go up, but it can be dog eat dog in terms of air quality, which is a huge problem not just in London but around our country, including in Wolverhampton.

Out-of-town shopping centres were adverted to. There are huge problems with the environment in that regard. There are problems in places such as Wolverhampton, a densely populated unitary authority. Any out-of-town shopping centre is likely to be next door, in the Chief Whip’s constituency. That is great for the people of South Staffordshire, but not so good for the people of Wolverhampton. We are going to get a dog-eat-dog approach, because South Staffordshire District Council is going to encourage that. We have heard about warehousing. I appreciate that, during the economic crisis, it was in Swindon’s interest to provide a giant car park for Honda, but that does not help the future economic development of our country.

This is not the way forward for our country. Getting rid of the revenue support grant, and having a system that is much more dog eat dog and “every municipality for itself” is not a good way to go if we want our country —England—to be a society where we have mutual obligations to each other.

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is gilding the lily slightly. The Government have been quite clear that 100% business rate retention means that 100% of the business rate will be retained by local government, not one individual council. Within that system, there will be a system of redistribution to reflect a number of things, including need. Does he not acknowledge that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Marris]

I agree—there is a risk of a beggar-my-neighbour downwards. The Government really ought to think again, in the absence of evidence that this will produce the change we all want in terms of business growth and growth of the tax base.

[Mr Jones]

To clarify the point that the hon. Gentleman just agreed with, made by the hon. Member for Harrow West, if a particular area decides it wants across its area to reduce the business rate multiplier, that local authority would have to pay for that within the quantum of its own business rates, and it would not be subsidised by another authority’s.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I would not disagree with the principle of the hon. Gentleman’s argument, but there are mechanisms other than revenue support grant through which payments will be made within the system. In particular, while 100% of the money raised through business rates will be retained by local government, quite clearly a core principle of that will be redistribution.

The removal of revenue support grant is part of wider changes we are making to provide increased funding for certain councils, which we know councils welcome. We are helping to move local government away from dependency on Whitehall through clause 1(4), which introduces schedule 1 to the Bill, containing a framework in law for multi-year settlements.

[Rob Marris]

The Minister may recall, if he casts his mind back, that I specifically referred to section 31 of the Local Government Act 2003 and counterposed it with the revenue support grant on this basis: section 31 funding is discretionary; the revenue support grant, in essence, is not. Therefore if one replaces or seeks more to rely on something discretionary, rather than mandatory, that takes power away from local government and puts it in the hands of the person who has discretion—in this case, central Government.

[Mr Jones]

As we have covered quite extensively, there is redistribution within the system. There will be resets of the system, and a baseline will be set, so there is the mechanism to provide that. The overriding point, as acknowledged by local government, is that it is good that the revenue support grant mechanism is not in the Bill.

Homelessness

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Wednesday 14th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend is right. Sometimes it is easy for us to simplify the challenges surrounding homelessness and rough sleeping, but most informed Members know that the position is far more complex. I welcome the provisions in his Bill for a personal plan that local authorities must go through with individuals, both people who are homeless and are owed a duty by a local authority to be housed and people who are not owed a duty to be housed. For the first time, they will get bespoke support. I thank my hon. Friend for raising that.

My hon. Friend is right to point out that we must deal with this challenge at a local level, but I am also absolutely committed to making sure we work effectively across the Government to tackle it. I am driving action across the Government through a ministerial working group on homelessness, and one example I can give the House is in regard to mental health, where we are looking at what more can be done to make sure rough sleepers with mental health problems get the specialist support they need. The group is also looking at how we can ensure that people who are homeless, or at risk of homelessness, receive the help they need to get into work.

I want now to pick up on a number of the comments hon. Members made. First, it was great to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South (Mrs Drummond). She extolled the virtues of the way in which Portsmouth City Council is trying to tackle homelessness, particularly through prevention and the work it is doing upfront to try to prevent people from becoming homeless in the first place. It was good to hear that the council is also working closely with local charities and other partners, and that is something we certainly want to see in the proposals local areas bring to us in relation to the grant-funding programmes we are providing.

The hon. Member for Dewsbury (Paula Sherriff) made a number of important points. She mentioned the rough-sleeping statistics. They are now much more accurate than they were in 2010, when local authorities were not obliged to provide a return to central Government in relation to how many rough sleepers there were in their areas. They are now compelled to do that, so the data are far more accurate. We are looking, though, at how we can improve the data that the Department holds, and we are doing so by trying to work out when people become homeless on multiple occasions and how we can prevent that from happening again to them.

I welcome what the hon. Lady said about the work Boots is doing in relation to sanitary products for women who, unfortunately, find themselves sleeping rough—an issue that she is particularly interested in. A number of programmes are centrally funded from the Department for Communities and Local Government for outreach organisations that deal with rough sleepers. In that sense, we do provide funding to those organisations, and they do, in turn, provide the type of support the hon. Lady rightly recognises is required for women rough sleepers.

[Rob Marris]

May I take the Minister back to the question of data? The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), for example, raised the issue of hidden homelessness and sofa-surfing. The Minister has just said that the figures on rough sleepers are getting more accurate—I welcome that—but what are the Government doing to collect more accurate data on hidden homelessness and the sofa surfers, who are particularly at risk of becoming rough sleepers?

[Mr Jones]

That is obviously a much more difficult thing to measure, but with regard to the Homelessness Reduction Bill, which the Government are backing, I am absolutely sure, and we are certainly factoring this into our sums, that a significantly higher number of single people who are homeless—the type of people the hon. Gentleman identifies—will present at a local authority, because they will expect to receive far better advice and support than they do now, and they will have a personal plan, which we hope will allow their homelessness to be alleviated. So I think we will be able to measure that in a better way. On whether we can go as far as identifying all those people, I think that would be rather difficult.

My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East was right to identify the challenges, particularly in London. He was also right to identify the record funding—£3.15 billion—that the Government are providing to the Mayor of London to build 90,000 new homes across a range of tenures to suit the needs of Londoners. It is great to see that in a spirit of co-operation the Mayor has welcomed that record funding.

My hon. Friend also hit the nail on the head when he said that just having a place for a rough sleeper to stay is not enough, as we discussed earlier in the debate. We have to look at the underlying personal challenges and tackle them in the work that we do. The cross-Government working group that I lead is looking to tackle a number of other issues in that regard.

My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (David Mackintosh) made an excellent speech in which he particularly highlighted his knowledge of this subject as chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on ending homelessness. He highlighted the tragic consequences that can happen where rough sleepers are not supported sufficiently, as did the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) and my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight). I was heartened to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South about his support for the Government’s programmes, particularly those on tackling rough sleeping.

The hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) mentioned a housing association in her constituency that she said was not providing adequate housing conditions for its tenants. That is an extremely serious situation if it is the case. I recommend that she take that up with the local council. I would be keen to hear more detail from her on the types of issues that are being experienced. I can say, as somebody who was quite heavily involved in the Housing and Planning Act 2016, that there are now significant penalties for rogue landlords. Local authorities can now levy significant financial penalties of up to £30,000 on rogue landlords who do not provide adequate housing for the people to whom they rent property.

My hon. Friends the Members for Colchester (Will Quince) and for St Ives (Derek Thomas) made excellent speeches underlining the causes of rough sleeping. They were absolutely right to highlight the role of charitable workers and volunteers, who do tremendous work up and down the country. I would like to thank those volunteers, on behalf of the Government, for doing such an excellent job on behalf of a group of very vulnerable people.

The hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Vicky Foxcroft) mentioned funding for the Bill that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East has brought to the House. I can assure the hon. Lady that it is the Government’s intention to fund the Bill. We recognise that new burdens will be created, and as the new obligations on councils come forward, we will fund that. We fully expect, though, that the Bill will create a situation whereby councils deal with homelessness far more quickly. It will therefore become far cheaper for local authorities to deal with and support people because they will not be dealing with a housing crisis as often as they do currently. She referred to temporary accommodation. I can assure her that, by law, temporary accommodation must be suitable. If it is not in the case of the constituent she mentioned then that constituent has the right to a review and should go back to her local authority in that regard.

This has been an excellent debate on an extremely important issue. Our ambitions are backed by a new funding programme and the most ambitious legislative reform in decades. This Government are taking an end-to-end approach to tackling homelessness because we—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Marcus Jones and Rob Marris

Monday 24th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

T5. How is the Government’s proposal for 100% business rates retention compatible with the statement in their consultation document that there will be“a level of redistribution between authorities similar to the current system of 9 tariffs and top-ups”?

[Mr Marcus Jones]

I say to the hon. Gentleman that 100% of business rates will be retained in local government to be spent on local government services. There will need to be a form of redistribution so that local authorities that do not collect as much in business rates are not left in a difficult situation. The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know we consulted extensively in the sector and received more than 450 responses.