Local Government Finance Bill (Eighth sitting)

Rob Marris Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Marcus Jones)]

The clause allows local authorities to specify a multiplier discount. The effect will be to enable them to reduce the nationally determined business rates in their area.

Schedule 2 provides two delegated powers. The first enables the Secretary of State to add, vary or amend descriptions of local authorities that can exercise this power, so that he or she can respond to changes in the organisation of local government. The second gives the Secretary of State the power to set a maximum multiplier discount that a relevant authority, as defined in schedule 2, may apply. The Local Government Finance Act 1988, as amended by the Bill, and regulations made under that Act, will allow the Government to ensure that the income of a tiered authority in a two-tier area is protected from a discount introduced by another authority.

We encourage two-tier areas to work together when setting a discount. Under paragraph 6C, the authority introducing a discount must inform the Secretary of State and other affected authorities of its intention to do so by 31 December in the preceding financial year. The list of relevant authorities under the schedule is defined in new paragraph 6A(2) and includes lower and upper-tier authorities, as well as unitary authorities and the Greater London Authority, all of which receive a share of business rates. New paragraph 6B(1) sets out how a multiplier discount must be expressed by an authority. Overall, these changes give local authorities the flexibility to attract business investment, while providing businesses with the stability of knowing that business rates will not increase beyond the national level.

[Rob Marris (Wolverhampton South West) (Lab)]

My hon. Friends on the Labour Front Bench, whose amendments 45 and 46 would have enabled an increase in rates, will be happy to know that schedule 2 allows that. Paragraph 6 of schedule 2, which starts on line 32 of page 42 of the Bill, amends paragraph 3A of our old friend, schedule 7 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988. Paragraph 6 goes through aspects of multiplier discount and refers, in lines 1 and 2 of page 43, to taking

“the sum of those multiplier discounts.”

I cannot see that the Bill prevents a negative multiplier discount, though I stand to be corrected by the Minister. I look around the room at all the MPs on the Committee; they all studied mathematics far more recently than I did—I make no mention of you, Sir David—but my understanding is that if there is a negative multiplier discount, the result is a positive. That would produce the effect sought unsuccessfully by my hon. Friends through amendments 45 and 46.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

For the record, let me clarify that we were not seeking to change Labour party policy in this area, so my hon. Friend is wrong, unusually, to say that we were advocating an increase in business rates. We were merely seeking an opportunity to raise the suggestion made by the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government—and particularly the hon. Members for Thirsk and Malton, and for Northampton South—which advocated in its report a power for local authorities to increase business rates if they wanted to.

[Rob Marris]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that clarification. I apologise to the Committee if I mis-expressed myself. I was not advocating one course or the other, because I believe in local control and localism, but on my reading, the amendments made by schedule 2 would allow that increase.

The Minister adverted to new paragraph 6B, which is to be inserted into schedule 7 to the 1988 Act; it starts at line 27 of page 44 of the Bill. Under new paragraph 6B(3), the Secretary of State can, as the Minister said, set a maximum. The Secretary of State spoke this morning about incentivising and stimulating, and about local authorities working hard and being flexible to attract business. He referred to tools to incentivise local growth, without, of course, producing any evidence relating to the incentives, or their prospects of success, but we have already been around the block several times on the subject of the lack of evidence, so I shall leave that.

However, while we are talking about localism, sub-paragraph (3) is another instance of a power being reserved, if not grabbed, by central Government—the power for the Secretary of State to set a maximum for a multiplier discount. That does not seem to me to bolster localism. Broadly speaking, if we go along with what the Minister says—with the idea that 100% retention of business rates and so on will incentivise local authorities to be even more pro-business, whatever the colour of the authority—we should let local authorities act accordingly and make what outside observers and indeed some residents may see as mistakes. That is what localism is about: letting local authorities take decisions and bear the consequences.

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

It is hard to think of a recent example, but perhaps the Government are trying to prevent a local authority from threatening to increase the rate to such an extent that there is local outcry, forcing the Government to do a back-room deal to resolve the issue.

[Rob Marris]

I cannot think that that could possibly happen in any county in England. However, I wonder whether specifying a maximum multiplier discount, which, as I understand it is, in lay terms, a floor below which a local authority must not go, is to do with a Government attempt to shore up local government finances. The present Government and their coalition predecessor nicked loads of money from local authorities, so local authorities without enough money might still be tempted, in a beggar-my-neighbour way, to use the powers provided generally, were it not for schedule 2, to set a multiplier discount at a very low rate.

Of course Government finances are in a complete mess, and the national debt has gone up nearly two thirds in the past six years. There are real problems with the Government finances. They are not under control, and that is reflected in local authority finances. Some local authorities might be tempted to take action that outside observers and the Secretary of State might regard as foolish. What, therefore, does the Secretary of State do? He reserves powers, under schedule 2, to set a maximum multiplier discount.

That goes against the grain of what the Government are professing to do in the Bill—bolstering localism, and giving local authorities non-evidenced incentives to be business-friendly. A local authority cannot get too business-friendly by setting out too much of a multiplier discount, because then the Secretary of State will say, “You cannot do that.” Again, there are contradictory messages. I do not say that nothing my party says is ever contradictory. On occasions it could be pointed out that things I or my colleagues have said are contradictory; that is the human condition. However, we are dealing with a Bill presented by a Government who talk about local control, and schedule 2 contains an example that shows them going in the opposite direction.

[Mr Jones]

I will respond briefly. The hon. Gentleman’s argument and the intervention by the hon. Member for Harrow West showed how confused the Opposition are about this area of policy. I have clearly set out how the clause would operate, and explained that the intention is to allow local authorities to apply a discount to their multiplier if they wish. To respond to the question of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West, the Secretary of State will have the power to stipulate a maximum increase in a business rate supplement, and we are showing some consistency for when things go the other way and an area might want to reduce the multiplier. The clause is therefore not inconsistent with the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 6 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 2

Power to reduce non-domestic rating multipliers

Amendment proposed: 48, in schedule 2, page 44, line 7, at end insert—

‘(1A) A relevant authority shall determine that the multiplier discount shall apply—

(a) to all hereditaments in its area, or

(b) only to some hereditaments in its area (defined by reference to their location, rateable value, class of hereditament or such other factors that the relevant authority determines when specifying the multiplier discount).’—(Jim McMahon.)

See explanatory statement for amendment 49.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

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[Mr Thomas]

In the interests of speed, I will take the opportunity to speak to the Government amendments now, rather than in a separate clause stand part debate.

If I understand correctly, a small business in a rural area might quality for 100% business rate relief under small business rate relief, but if it also qualifies for the 50% rural rate relief, it has to be given that 50% relief rather than the 100% relief, because of the hierarchy of rate reliefs that exists. As I understand it, the clause intends to deal with that loophole.

As the Minister hinted, a rural settlements list sets out the types of businesses that would benefit from small business rate relief. Those are a public house or petrol station that is the only such business in a rural settlement and has a rateable value of less than £12,500, a food store or general store that is the only one in the settlement, and post offices with a rateable value of less than £8,500. Local authorities have the discretion to top up the 50% rural rate relief to 100%, but not all do so, presumably because of the difficult financial situation that local authorities face at the moment, regardless of their political leadership, given the cuts to revenue support that the Government have been pushing through.

I intervene in this debate to ask the Minister a number of questions. Why does the rural rate relief scheme not cover a wider range of businesses? I ask that in the context of growing concern in the countryside that rural enterprises will be some of the biggest losers in the business rates revaluation that will come into force after April 2018. There have been real concerns that livery yards and riding schools, for example, will go to the wall because of the expected increase in business rates under the revaluation. There is concern that kennels and catteries, polo grounds, racecourses and racing stables will also be among the worst hit. That is of such concern that the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) has raised concerns. Similarly, Sarah Phillips, the director of participation at the British Horse Society, worried aloud—understandably—through The Times that increases in business rates after April would have a devastating impact on livery yards and riding schools. She went on to point out that rural businesses, which typically occupy more space, were being put at an unfair disadvantage by a bricks-and-mortar tax based on premises, not profitability. That prompts a question of Ministers as to why more rural businesses will not be able to benefit from the changes.

Indeed, the many businesses that want to install solar panels are also asking why rural business rate relief will not similarly help them. They also stand to suffer considerably from the business rates revaluation that will come into force after the next revaluation in April 2017. The problem is that, going forward, solar panels will be judged separately from business premises, and it appears that they will not all qualify for small business rates, which is the other potential opportunity for assistance. Given the solar industry’s potential to create good new jobs, why are Ministers not taking advantage of the extension of rural rate relief, perhaps to help out a number of other businesses?

When we debated clause 5, we talked about whether the retail prices index or the consumer prices index should be used. I know that you read Hansard diligently, Sir David, so you will remember that £78 billion will potentially be gained by businesses and lost by local authorities over the next 20 years as a result of the change. Perhaps if Ministers were to take advantage of the flexibility in clause 5 over whether CPI is used, which my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West noted, they might be able to find the resources to help more businesses in our countryside to survive.

Bricks-and-mortar businesses—in urban areas, too, but in this context particularly in rural areas—are under growing pressure from the rise in online businesses. One of the great successes of the previous Labour Government, and of Britain more generally, is that we are such a hub for online technology businesses, but those businesses tend to need less space and are therefore less likely to pay high business rates, whether they are in urban or rural areas. Many businesses are saying, “Hang on a second. We have to pay huge business rates every year, and these online businesses are not being taxed in the same way. Isn’t it time for a bit more equality between these two types of businesses?”

The challenges for businesses in rural areas are sometimes even more acute. In Threlkeld, a small village just outside Keswick in the Allerdale Borough Council area, which the hon. Member for North Swindon always likes to be reminded of, there is a new coffee shop run by the community—it is a social enterprise—and a pub. We know that the pub would qualify for 100% rural rate relief, but we do not know whether the coffee shop would. As the coffee shop is part of a community hall facility, it helps the community of Threlkeld to benefit from the existence of that premise, where lots of different community activities take place. Would it be eligible for 100% rural rate relief or not? It is not a post office, a pub or a petrol station. Perhaps Ministers might listen to the concerns of businesses in the countryside a little more and do more to help them.

[Rob Marris]

If that community centre were classified as a public toilet under clause 9, it might get some relief—as might its users.

[Mr Thomas]

The last time I visited that coffee shop, which has fantastic views of Blencathra and Skiddaw—two of the great English mountains—although there were toilets there, that was not what the bulk of the premises were being used for. It would be interesting to probe whether it has the potential to get at least some relief under clause 9, but let me not test Sir David’s patience by being diverted down that particular route.

I would like to ask Ministers why, in their view, rural rate relief is so limited and whether there might not be scope for providing more assistance to businesses in the countryside, more generally and also given the rise in online businesses, which do not require such large premises. In particular, it would be good to hear what the Government will do to help the nascent solar panel industry, particularly those businesses seeking to put up solar panels in rural areas.

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[Mr Thomas]

Before I open my remarks on whether the clause should stand part of the Bill, having consulted with the registrar of standards, I need to declare that my partner works for a company that certainly manages and I believe installs mobile telecoms infrastructure.

I intend to explore the Minister’s thinking on the case for the clause. In the 2016 autumn statement, the Chancellor announced that the Government would provide 100% business rates relief for new full-fibre infrastructure over a five-year period from 1 April this year. In the context of the significant concern about BT and the way in which Openreach is working, and about the profits it and other bits of the industry have been able to generate, why is that particular provision needed? I ask it as a probing question.

Clearly, there is an opportunity cost to Ministers’ decision to offer full business rates relief for five years. All of us recognise the need to speed up access to the very best broadband telecoms not only in rural areas, in the context of the previous debate, but for businesses and households in my constituency, which complain about slow access to the newest broadband infrastructure. One wonders whether it is not the money, as full business rates relief for telecoms infrastructure will not offer up huge sums of money to those installing such infrastructure. However, there is clearly an opportunity cost in other areas.

Ministers do not appear to be cracking down enough on Ofcom or BT about the speed at which the broadband is being rolled out. How does the Minister see the clause making a real difference in the context of the considerable profits already being generated by the companies operating in this area?

[Rob Marris]

I hope the Minister can point to this, because I cannot find it, but my hon. Friend referred to the Chancellor’s announcement that mentioned a five-year period. I cannot find a reference to a five-year period in schedule 3. It may be there and I just cannot see it, or it is somewhere else and the Minister can point it out to me.

I see in schedule 3 more than four pages and five formulae. The ever-helpful Library brief cites on page 37 documentation from the autumn statement saying that this measure

“would reduce business rate revenue by £10 million”.

For a company such as BT, £10 million is not a huge amount of money, but for everyone in this room, it is. Nationally and relatively—I stress “relatively”—it is not a huge amount of money, but we get a four-page schedule and five formulae. That strikes me as completely over the top.

We see in schedule 3—on page 46, lines 30 and 31, page 47, lines 37 to 38, and page 48, coincidentally lines 30 and 31 again—the same wording:

“any conditions prescribed by the Secretary of State by regulations are satisfied on that day.”

So here we have the Secretary of State and more regulations. Then when I look at the power to make regulations in paragraph 12 on page 50 of the Bill, it says:

“any power to make regulations conferred by virtue of this Schedule”—

schedule 3—

“includes power to make provision having effect in relation to times before the coming into force of this Schedule”.

I would like the Minister to talk the Committee through that a bit. No doubt he will say something like this happens all the time, but I am a bit uneasy about what seems on the face of it to be a retrospective power in schedule 3, paragraph 12. That is a little worrying. Even though I appreciate it may be a power that would be used or is intended to be used to lessen the tax on a particular business or set of businesses, I still find the retrospection a little troubling.

[Mr Jones]

The Government intend to support the roll-out of a full-fibre telecommunications infrastructure for all. Full-fibre broadband will deliver a step change in the speed, service quality, security and reliability of broadband services. It will provide important support for a more productive economy and boost the prospects for economic growth.

In the 2016 autumn statement, to which the hon. Member for Harrow West referred, the Government announced £1 billion of new funding to boost the UK’s digital infrastructure. That includes investment of £400 million in a new digital infrastructure investment fund to boost commercial finance for emerging fibre broadband providers. Alongside that package, the Chancellor announced 100% rate relief for a new full-fibre infrastructure in England. Clause 8 and schedule 3 will introduce that relief, which will apply for five years, commencing on 1 April 2017. Hence this part of the Bill will have a retrospective effect. I hope that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West understands the principle behind the retrospection.

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[Rob Marris]

As I understand it—as ever, I am open to correction—the provisions in the clause and accompanying schedule are by nature, to use the Minister’s words, incentives: a financial incentive to encourage, in particular but not only, rural broadband and better internet connections, which we all support. It appears to be—I stress “appears”—a bung for private industry to do something that Ofcom could order it to do. Why are we being asked to do it in the Bill, rather than Ofcom just doing it by mandating companies?

[Mr Jones]

It is clear that the thrust of what we are trying to do, as I said at the outset, is to bring this forward as part of a package—£1 billion of new funding to boost the UK’s digital infrastructure, including £400 million in new digital infrastructure investment and a fund that is dedicated to that—to boost commercial finance for emerging fibre broadband providers. It is important that the hon. Gentleman understands that this measure is designed to widen the market in that sense.

[Rob Marris]

I am grateful for the Minister’s generosity in giving way. The Library briefing gives some figures on what this measure would cost each year, and I know he said he would get on to that. Are the figures for the cost each year included in the £1 billion to which he has referred at least twice, or are they in addition to it?

[Mr Jones]

That is a very good question, which I will write to the hon. Gentleman and the rest of the Committee on. The overall cost, which the hon. Member for Harrow West asked about—he wanted me to go into what the cost was in each of the first five years, but I am not able to do that today so perhaps I can satisfy him in writing—is £60 million over that particular period.

To pick up the thread that I was on, the powers in the schedule will allow the Secretary of State to determine the level of relief to be awarded. As I said, the Government intend to allow telecom operators 100% rate relief, but only for new fibre. That new fibre will of course form part of existing telecoms networks with existing ratings assessments. Through the operation of this scheme, we intend to ensure that relief is only for new fibre, as I have clarified to the Committee. To achieve that, the powers in the schedule will allow us to set, by a formula contained in regulations, the correct level of relief for each property, reflecting the amount of the network that qualifies for the relief. That will be based on a certificate from the valuation office of the amount of rateable value attributable to the new fibre.

Hon. Members will recognise that this is a technical area, but one in which we need desperately to ensure that the provisions are correct. Therefore, my Department will shortly issue draft regulations for consultation on how to implement the relief for new fibre. On that basis, I hope that clause 8 and schedule 3 will stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 3

Relief for telecommunications infrastructure

Amendments made: 38, in schedule 3, page 48, line 16, at end insert—

“6A In section 67 (interpretation: other provisions), in subsection (7), for “43(6)” substitute “43(4B) (so far as relating to England), (4F) and (6), 45(4D)”.”

Section 67(7) of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 provides that certain provisions of that Act apply on a particular day if they apply immediately before the day ends. This amendment extends section 67(7) to cover section 43(4B) of that Act and the new sections 43(4F) and 45(4D) inserted by Schedule 3.

Amendment 39, in schedule 3, page 49, line 29, at end insert—

“10A In section 67 (interpretation: other provisions), in subsection (7), for “47(2)” substitute “54ZA”.”—(Mr Jones.)

Section 67(7) of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 provides that certain provisions of that Act apply on a particular day if they apply immediately before the day ends. This amendment extends section 67(7) to cover the new section 54ZA inserted by Schedule 3.

Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 9

Discretionary relief for public toilets

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

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[Jim McMahon]

The figures come from a BBC freedom of information request last year, which went to all main local authorities. The question was not how many toilets they maintained but how many were in their areas of responsibility, so perhaps that includes toilets run by other authorities such as parish, community and town councils. I cannot confirm that from the article.

[Rob Marris]

As I understand it, if the parish council or whatever is a billing authority, it will benefit from the clause.

[Jim McMahon]

The parish council will benefit from the clause. The question was whether the data on the number of public toilets included parish councils and I cannot confirm that. Notwithstanding that, it is hard to believe that all 1,700 toilets have been handed over to parish councils. I think we can assume that, given £31 million has been taken out of their provision, a significant number of public conveniences have been taken away.

Some local authorities have recognised the impact that has had on their communities and, although they have faced difficult budget restrictions, they have tried to step up and bring the community together to try to find local solutions. For instance, we know that a number of pubs, cafés, bars and restaurants acting as community toilet providers have been recognised with a small payment from their local authority. That is one way in which there has been some impact, particularly in areas of high footfall such as tourist areas, and my own local authority does that to a good standard. However, there is a world of difference between being able to spot a little sticker displayed in the window of a community toilet provider and the community knowing where to find established facilities.

The other thing is that a number of the conveniences were in isolated locations, such as country parks, and a number of those have closed, too. At the moment, 10 areas have no public toilets, including Newcastle, Merthyr Tydfil and Wandsworth. Given the coming budget cuts, I imagine that councils will have to reflect on whether they look after children who need safeguarding protection, take care of elderly people who need social care, or maintain their toilets. Even if local authorities have a rate reduction, those toilets still have maintenance, staffing and cleaning costs, and I suspect that a number of them will fall foul of the cuts. Although this is a step in the right direction, it does not feel like a holistic strategy for providing that public infrastructure in many areas.

Campaigning organisations have taken this issue on. The British Toilet Association does a lot of work on it. We sometimes dismiss this issue, and people laugh it off because it attracts a sense of humour, but the British Toilet Association makes the case for why these facilities are important. This is about not just the number of toilets, but the quality of provision. The association is leading the way in ensuring that there is a quality standard so that people who use public toilets are not put off by poor cleanliness, antisocial behaviour or poor maintenance—for example, lights that are out. It recognises good practice through its annual awards, which it hopes will drive up standards in the industry.

I ask the Government to at least have a conversation with the British Toilet Association to find out what more can be done to come up with a holistic strategy to deal with this issue and to ensure that we do not lose any more public conveniences. Worse, in a bid to try to retain them but save money, maintenance may be reduced to such an extent that they are not welcoming and people do not feel safe in them. As a result, they may become a venue for antisocial behaviour, and none of us wants to see that.

When talking about money and numbers, at times we miss the human cost. I could have spent 20 minutes making jokes, but we have to be serious about what these public services are there for. I want to reflect on a story from a part of Manchester that my mum lives in, which used to have public toilets and now no longer does. A man called Brian Dean, who suffers from Parkinson’s disease, went out with his wife, Joan, and needed to use the toilet. The toilet they thought would be there was not—it had closed—and they could not find anywhere else to go, so unfortunately he wet himself. For that to happen to an adult who was ill was absolutely distressing for him and his wife, who was proud of her husband and had a sense of responsibility for getting him around. They said that it left them with a feeling of humiliation. We can talk about numbers and finance, and we can crack jokes, but there is a human cost. There is a reason why these conveniences are there in the first place. We have to think about how much we value this type of public service.

I am pleased to see this measure, but I think it exposes a wider issue about how local authority premises are treated in the ratings criteria. Education facilities such as an independent school, an academy or a free school outside the local authority attract the 80% mandatory business rates relief, but local authority schools do not. We see the same thing in the health service: health providers outside the public sector can attract the 80% mandatory relief, but Government health providers cannot.

We have seen this before. Even before this Bill was introduced, because of the rateable values involved, privately operated public conveniences were under the rateable value threshold and could claim exemption, but council-run facilities could not. There is a broader issue here about how the ratings assessment treats public and Government-owned buildings. We should ensure that there is a level playing field. We have debated that in relation to education facilities, health facilities and other public buildings. It strikes me that the Government have reflected and feel that these important public buildings need to be recognised in the legislation, and I am pleased. It has been a while coming; local authorities have been asking for this for some time, but it has not happened. A request was made, for instance, during the sustainable communities process, and it was not taken on board.

I recognise that we have a great deal of business to get through, so I will leave my remarks there. However, I did not want to let the issue pass without making it clear that however funny this may appear on the surface, it is actually quite important.

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[Steve Double]

I am grateful for that intervention. I was going to say that I feel partly responsible for the clause. Along with my colleagues in Cornwall, I lobbied the former Prime Minister and Chancellor hard on this issue, because our experience in Cornwall was that this was a particular barrier for maintaining the provision of public toilets. From my point of view—I cannot speak for the Minister—there is not a one-size-fits-all solution across the country. In different areas, there are different challenges in maintaining public toilet provision. The discretion allows local authorities to set out whether it is a priority in their area.

Let me explain why the measure is so welcome. In Cornwall, which has a large unitary authority covering a very large geographical area, having all those toilets run and maintained by the unitary authority is not the most efficient way to do it. It is far better to devolve the provision and maintenance of those facilities down to local parish councils, town councils or other groups that are better placed to maintain them and keep them open at the hours that the community needs them—that may not be all year round, or all day. Those organisations will be better and more efficient at keeping the facilities clean and well maintained, because people can do it locally, rather than there being a centralised process like the one that Cornwall Council had, with people driving all over the county just to maintain the facilities. Devolving down the running of the facilities to local groups and councils is much more efficient and effective.

In my experience as a cabinet member, one of the biggest barriers to parish councils taking over the running of the facilities was business rates. Often, a fairly small parish council whose precept was only a few thousand pounds a year would consider taking on the cost of maintaining the public toilets, but they would find that the business rate alone on the toilets was more than their whole precept. Deciding whether it was feasible and affordable to take on the facilities was a significant challenge, even if the council recognised that taking them on would be very beneficial to the community. Putting discretion in the hands of the senior authority is sensible, because in the case of Cornwall Council, it can then decide that it sees the value of these facilities across the county. It may want to play its part in helping to maintain them and keep them open, but it may not want responsibility for their day-to-day maintenance and running. It can make the decision to grant that discretion. That would help parish councils with the cost of taking on these facilities, and perhaps enable them to afford to do so. This is a sensible and welcome move, and it has my full support.

[Rob Marris]

Certain houses of repute with cultural artefacts get a tax break for opening at certain times of the year to the public. My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton did not have time to mention that the redoubtable Brian Dean, the gentleman with Parkinson’s, tried every shop in a row of shops, asking if he could use their toilet, and was refused, as is their right. Having desperately tried to avoid it, it was only at that point that he had to soil himself. That is a sad reflection on those shops, but I understand it. I would like the Minister to give some thought to whether it might be possible to structure a business rate relief for private premises, such as a coffee shop in Allerdale, that allow the public access to their toilets, in the way that we allow tax reliefs for certain houses with cultural artefacts. We put something in; there are certain things that they provide; and they get a tax break for providing that service.

As we all know, with our ageing population, it is statistically likely that there will be a rise of near incontinence and urgency. The need for access to toilet facilities among the population as a whole, and the need for those facilities to be fairly readily available, will increase. I say that as one of the patrons of Wolverhampton Mencap. Many adults with learning difficulties get a sense of urgency and need to get to a toilet very quickly. I would ask the Minister to look at a system in which private premises that were not “wholly or mainly” a public lavatory facility, as in the clause, but that had a toilet—perhaps a coffee shop—and made it available to the public for a specified number of hours or whatever got some business rate relief for providing that public service.

[Mr Thomas]

I rise to make two points. It was interesting to hear the contribution of the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay on how he thought we got to this point. I commend him for his successful lobbying, but I wonder why Ministers could not have gone a bit further. There are already business rates exemptions for agricultural land, presumably because of its importance to rural communities and to the countryside that we all value. Given the growing concern about the long-term financing of public toilets, one wonders whether it is time to dwell on the question of whether public toilets should be given full business rates relief. I have to be honest; I have not looked into the issue in detail yet, but it is a question worth posing to Ministers.

I come back to the example of the Threlkeld village hall coffee shop, which I spoke about before, and which my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West tempted me to flag up on this issue. It has toilets that are used by members of the public, predominantly when they come in to use the coffee shop, but it is the only place in the community other than the pub where they might do so. The village hall is a social enterprise. Would business rates relief be on offer to that part of the premises that has toilets, if members of the public can use them?

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[Mr Thomas]

I rise to make a contribution that is in the same spirit as those made by the hon. Members for Thirsk and Malton, and for Northampton South, in the Communities and Local Government Committee debate on 100% business rates retention. I will raise the issues that they might feel intimidated about raising, or be reluctant to raise. That Committee heard concerns about the central list and agreed that Government and local authorities could together consider whether properties on the central list should continue to be held by central Government, and how the revenue generated could be better used under 100% retention. It made the point that it had received representations from throughout the local authority world criticising the central list’s lack of transparency and urging that the revenue from the central list be distributed among authorities. A number of councils said that the accounting was opaque, and London Councils suggested that the basis for including properties on the central list was unclear.

That was perhaps most nicely summed up by David Magor of the Institute of Revenues Rating and Valuation:

“The central list is a mystery; no one knows what the central list is spent on. Is it the Chancellor’s central pot?”

Perhaps that is how Surrey is being sorted out. He continued:

“The central list should be distributed to local government because it is part of rate income. There is no logical reason why the central list should continue in its present form.”

The Minister will by now have gone through the Select Committee report and had time to reflect on the Committee’s concerns about the operation of the central list. I express those concerns, but recognise that clause 10 seeks to ensure that properties on the list can qualify in future for charitable, empty property and telecoms relief. What impact will that have on the approximately £1.5 billion raised in business rates annually, and on the central list? Presumably, were the £1.5 billion to be depleted significantly as a result of all those additional reliefs, there might be consequences for the redistribution of resources among councils. I will not go into the concerns about other impacts on the pool of money raised from business rates, or the scale of the cuts to the revenue support grant, but it would be helpful to hear what estimate Ministers have made of the impact of clause 10 on the £1.5 billion pot.

I have received representations from the Charity Retail Association, which is responsible for representing all charity shops in England. It suggests, instead of the 80% charitable relief to which the Minister referred in discussion on clause 9, 100% relief to ensure no postcode lottery. Some charity shops get 100% as a result of the additional 20%, which is discretionary, being given to them by their authority, but not all do. The association asks for 100%. What do Ministers think of that concern?

[Rob Marris]

Does my hon. Friend agree that 100% relief for charities would be consonant with what someone—I cannot remember who—called the big society?

[Mr Thomas]

I will not go down that particular route—you might get annoyed with me, Sir David, and I would not want that to happen—but my hon. Friend makes a good point.

It is worth remembering that the central list primarily focuses on utilities or property belonging to the formerly nationalised industries. One thinks about the privatisation of the water industry, for example, where in general water companies are mostly owned by private equity investors that have taken on billions of pounds of debt, often in the form of loans from shareholders, which the chair of Ofwat as recently as 2013 suggested was morally questionable, in order to avoid corporation tax costs. One wonders whether it is entirely appropriate for such companies to benefit from reliefs in the context of concern about water companies and other privately owned utilities not paying as much corporation tax as they might. It is in the spirit of inquiry that I ask those questions.

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[Mr Thomas]

I beg to move amendment 29, in clause 16, page 17, line 5, at end insert”, or

(c) any other billing authority.”

This amendment would enable any billing authority to impose an infrastructure supplement on non-domestic ratepayers in its area.

Having made clear my support for the power to impose an infrastructure levy, I come to the question of who should be allowed to impose it. It appears that Ministers are determined that only authorities with a Mayor should be allowed to do so. That seems to us to be a grotesquely unfair act of discrimination against local authorities that need investment in infrastructure but have decided for their own local reasons that a Mayor is not a suitable way forward for them.

One thinks in particular of the authority of Cornwall, which the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay will know has done a deal with the Government without needing to elect a Mayor. Cornwall Council made representations to the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government, on which the hon. Members for Northampton South and for Thirsk and Malton sat. Cornwall Council felt that it would be at a disadvantage if the provision were introduced and it was not allowed to benefit from it.

In addition, the Select Committee received evidence from the Chief Economic Development Officers’ Society. It is worth bringing attention to the significant bit of that evidence. CEDOS said:

“In the move to 100% business retention, it is essential for all areas, as far as possible, to have a level policy playing field on which to drive economic growth. In our view, the intention that only areas with elected city-wide mayors will be able to add a premium to business rates to pay for new infrastructure is fundamentally at odds with this. We believe this power should be available to all areas with the provision that a majority of all businesses should agree, which we think is a reasonable one.”

The Select Committee went on to urge the Government to consider with local authorities whether, by placing areas without a directly elected Mayor at a disadvantage, the proposal conflicts with the aim of 100% retention.

I can think of a number of areas—I return to the example of Allerdale Borough Council—that need significant investment in infrastructure from time to time and where the power to introduce an infrastructure levy could make a significant difference to economic growth in the area. Let us take the example of flooding. In the past, Allerdale Borough Council has had a number of significant floods in its area, and it has been fortunate to secure grants to help with flood prevention measures. However, given the pace of climate change, one could easily imagine a scenario in which funding for further work is required to prevent flooding and to allow businesses to operate effectively. Without the infrastructure investment, the local authority might become less attractive to businesses. It is not impossible to envisage a situation in which businesses wanted to move out of the area. Indeed, one area that was the victim of significant flooding in Allerdale is the area that most large businesses are attracted to as a base.

I offer that as an example—as far as I know, Allerdale Borough Council does not have a Mayor and has not done a devolution deal with the Government, but it will have infrastructure needs. Surely it should not be left at a disadvantage compared with authorities that have a Mayor.

[Rob Marris]

To give my hon. Friend another example, over in East Anglia, Waveney might suffer from coastal erosion.

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend makes a good point; it is a shame that the hon. Member for Waveney is not here to help us to think about the impact on coastal areas. When we talk to businesses—as the Opposition do regularly—infrastructure investment is one of the areas that they continue to cite as crucial for future economic growth. We are all aware of the regional inequality in this country and the need to try to generate further economic growth at a faster pace outside London and the south-east.

I am not surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would want to go to Manchester, which is one of the leading districts where Labour authorities are leading the charge to help businesses. However, one needs to recognise that the advantages that Manchester has pursued—rightly, in terms of a levy for the purposes of investment in infrastructure—would also benefit authorities elsewhere in the north, the north-west and the midlands, and no doubt in Cornwall, Northamptonshire and other areas. This is a question of fairness and equality and of investment in areas that do not have a Mayor. I look forward to the Minister’s attempts to justify why authorities that do not have a Mayor should be denied the opportunity to benefit from this type of infrastructure investment.

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[Mr Thomas]

I have heard what the Minister has said. I have also heard the response of my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), who speaks on housing for Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition, who described the housing White Paper, quite accurately, as less a White Paper and more a white flag. That encapsulates the reality of the Conservative party’s approach to housing. The Minister has missed an opportunity by rejecting amendment 44 out of hand, but I do not seek a Division on the amendment at this point, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Rob Marris]

This is a somewhat confusing clause, because it is entitled “Use of money raised by infrastructure supplements”, but what it goes into, in subsection (3) for example, is what the money cannot be spent on. Now, I understand that. I listened to the Minister—as an aside, I have to say that I was not convinced by what he said about housing and I hope he will reflect on it, but I understood what he said. This is part of the forbidden list, which runs to six factors in subsections (3)(a) to (f). However, to come back from that a bit, we have a problem, in that clause 36—definitions and interpretations—does not tell us what infrastructure is. I hope the Minister can tell me, either now or later, where in the Bill the definition of infrastructure is, because I cannot see it—it might be there, but I cannot see it. At the moment, we seem to have a Bill that does not say what infrastructure is and says only what the money cannot be spent on.

I am aware that clause 33—we will get to it later, Sir David, but I have to refer to it now, as it is very germane—refers to the guidance that can be given by the Secretary of State on what money can be spent on. The Minister gave us a little indication a few moments ago, because he referred to infrastructure projects—the use of the money that would be permitted under clause 17—to create, to quote him, “a better economic environment”. He then said something that, again, I cannot see in the Bill—he may correct me; it might be there, and if it is not, it sounds as if the Secretary of State would be minded to have it in the guidance. The Minister said that the projects would have to be “additional”, and that the money would be spent, to quote him again, on something that would “not otherwise get built”.

The Minister, like me, is a Member of Parliament for the west midlands, although I am in the urban core of the west midlands, directly under the combined authority. Nuneaton is in Warwickshire, which is a bit hokey-cokey about the combined authority, with its local enterprise partnership and so on, but Wolverhampton is squarely in there. As a west midlands MP who is astute about what is going on, the Minister will be aware that a subject of political debate in the mayoral elections for the West Midlands Combined Authority is whether it should buy the M6 toll road.

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[Mr Jones]

Elected Mayors of mayoral combined authorities will have a strategic overview of their areas, so will be well placed to deliver projects that have a significant effect on local economies. The infrastructure supplement provides a unique opportunity to deliver infrastructure investment at a significant scale to benefit local businesses and communities. As I said earlier, that will be infrastructure that would otherwise generally not be built. Clause 17 sets the parameters for how many ways can be used to help to ensure that that is achieved.

Naturally, the supplement can only be spent on the project for which it has been levied. The sums received can be used to pay off loans secured to pay for the project to which the supplement relates, which may well answer one of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West on the west midlands and the idea of some sort of involvement in the Birmingham northern relief road, which I think he was referring to.

[Rob Marris]

I was specifically referring to the M6 toll. If the M6 toll is taken over and is made free, that will create economic development through the west midlands urban centre proper because it will take pressure off the current M6; it is not a question of a northern relief road. The Minister has mentioned again stuff that would not otherwise get built. I am getting the message from him, but I cannot see that in the Bill.

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[Rob Marris]

Clause 33 relates to guidance and, according to subsection (2)(a), that will cover:

“the kinds of projects which may, and may not, be regarded as appropriate ones in relation to which to impose infrastructure supplements”.

Will the Minister give us some idea as to when the guidance is likely to be issued by the Secretary of State and its legal force? In the Bill we have had “direction”, in a different context, and “regulations” used. This is “guidance”, but how strong is guidance? If the Secretary of State gave guidance that school buildings were not to be included in an infrastructure supplement but the Mayor of a combined authority wished to include them and could make an argument that they were infrastructure, who would get their way?

[Mr Jones]

Clause 33, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, will require Mayors to have regard to any guidance that the Secretary of State provides in relation to infrastructure spending. The Bill sets out a wide range of requirements that must be applied to the development of an infrastructure supplement, including who can impose a supplement, restrictions on what it may be used for, the consultation that must take place and what should be included in the prospectus. In addition, the clause provides that the Secretary of State may issue guidance to assist Mayors and businesses in the process. The type of guidance that I would expect to be issued by the Secretary of State would be statutory guidance, so there will be a formal guide for the particular Mayor in a particular area to work to.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 33 to 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned.— (Jackie Doyle-Price.)