Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[Matt Hancock]

Well, of course citizens elect the Government, and in many cases the Government are responsible for data. Having democratic legitimacy behind the control of data is critical to a functioning democracy. No doubt we can return to this issue in the future. There are no Lords amendments on that subject, and I consider that the Bill represents significant progress.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh). She has worked hard on the Bill and made a number of suggestions that we have taken on board. She has been a pleasure to negotiate with and very effective. When I am complimentary about her, she always tells me that I am damaging her career no end, so I hope that she will take my compliments in the spirit in which they are intended.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

The Minister knows that it makes me deeply uncomfortable when we agree on anything, and that also applies to compliments paid from the Dispatch Box, but it is a great privilege to speak for the Opposition today during the closing stages of this Bill. Thanks to the deliberations of hon. Members on both sides of the House, including the Minister, and what I would describe as exemplary cross-party working, the Bill is in considerably better shape than when it was introduced last year.

The Bill still does not go far enough in a number of crucial areas. It represents a missed opportunity to update our infrastructure, skills strategy, finance, the responsibilities of the behemoths of the digital age, and the rights that individuals should have in this era when data is increasingly the currency that matters above all. Nevertheless, there have been some useful changes, and I am grateful to the Minister for his considered exposition of the Government’s position, especially regarding the amendments, with which we are not in dispute.

I will deal briefly with each of the Lords amendments in turn. Lords amendment 1 will increase the USO to superfast levels to ensure that every household and business in the country can benefit from speeds of at least 30 megabits per second. The benefits of that do not need repeating, as we have considered them at length during many debates in the short time that I have served as shadow Digital Minister, and the House is united on the need for much improved broadband speed and reliability across the country. Indeed, I note that the Minister’s constituency has fallen down the rankings for superfast availability during his tenure in his post, so he will be particularly keen to tackle this issue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Thursday 9th February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

Keeping our children safe online is one of the Government’s most important responsibilities. That is why section 67 of the Serious Crime Act 2015 rightly made it a criminal offence for adults to send sexual messages to children, yet the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children says that, two years on, the law is still not enforced and the police cannot enforce it. Will the Minister explain to the House why the Government are dragging their feet on this and ensure that this legislation is implemented immediately?

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

It is very good to see a member of the shadow team who has been voting with the rest of the shadow Front Bench this week.

On the important issue that she addresses, ensuring internet safety is, as she knows, at the top of the Government’s agenda. It has been a crucial part of the Digital Economy Bill, and the proposal she makes is also something we are considering very seriously.

Digital Economy Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 11th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 1st November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

I rise briefly to support the new clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West and I were proud to put our names to it. I commend the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty for bravely revealing his devotion to Green Day. I stand in solidarity with him—I, too, am a big fan.

This issue has been a problem for too long for fans of musicians of all descriptions. It prices people out of access to their favourite bands and acts and thereby entrenches a class barrier to culture, which cannot be allowed to continue. For as long as there have been ticketed events, there have been people making money out of the fact that demand for live sports or music outstrips supply. As my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester pointed out, the development of technology has escalated the problem. Punters simply do not stand a chance against digital ticket purchasing software. The new clause would kick away one of the legs that ticket touts rely on.

The current legislation contained in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is extremely patchy. It can compel ticket resale sites to publish information such as seat number and face value, but it is not enforced sufficiently and tickets are routinely sold at a high mark-up. Unless Parliament gets tough now, resale sites will continue brazenly to flout the law. It is high time that Parliament closed the legal loophole. That is what the industry, musicians and fans are calling for. I take the opportunity to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), who has been calling for this change for some time. We wholeheartedly support new clause 13.

[Matt Hancock]

I recognise the strength of feeling across the Committee on this matter. I will certainly do the bidding of the hon. Member for City of Chester and pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty, who is a long-standing supporter of live music and has made his case. Last week, he introduced me to Josh Franceschi in the House of Commons, who was able to make his plea very directly.

I match my hon. Friend’s Green Day ticketing problem and raise him my Paul Simon ticket problem. I had a similar experience when buying tickets to see Paul Simon next week at the Royal Albert Hall, to which I am looking forward enormously. I had to pay an eye-watering amount for the tickets—much higher than the face value.

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[Louise Haigh]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

New clause 19 would provide a general obligation on companies to report personal data breaches. This crucial amendment gets to the heart of the regulatory system around cyber-security. Cyber-security is one of the greatest challenges we face as a country. Despite the Government’s multi-million pound strategy and their further welcome announcement today, we do not believe they have faced up to the challenge yet. Some 90% of large UK firms were attacked in 2014. That is an astonishing figure, and yet only 28% of those businesses reported their cyber-attack to the police. As the Minister knows, national crime statistics rose for the first time in 20 years last year, because scams and cybercrime are now included.

Throughout discussion of the Bill, we have made it clear that we feel it does nothing to address the real challenges facing the digital economy. The Bill should have equipped the sector for the digital future—a future as replete with challenges as with opportunities. None of those challenges could be greater than cyber-security. That security says to consumers and individuals that, in this coming century, when data will be the lifeblood and the exchange of personal data the currency, nothing is more critical to ensure that that runs smoothly than their trust.

This multi-billion-pound sector, which now amounts to 11% of our GDP, is utterly reliant on the mutual trust fostered between consumers and producers, which is why the new clause is so critical. It would establish for the first time a duty on all companies to report any breach of cyber-security. The legislation as it stands is simply inadequate. The Data Protection Acts deal extensively with the protection of personal data, but there is no legal obligation on companies to report data breaches. The privacy and electronic communications regulations include an obligation to report data breaches, but that only applies to telecommunications companies and internet service providers and, at that stage, only requires companies to consider information customers.

Clearly, however, it is not only communications providers that hold sensitive data about people that carry the potential to be commodified. Insurance companies have had their data stolen, to be sold to claims management companies; banks are hacked, as J.P. Morgan was in 2014; and TK Maxx suffered the largest retail hack to date with the loss of credit and debit card information. Yet none of those examples had a duty to report to their customers to ensure that further harm was not done with their information.

The net impact of the lack in existing legislation is that the vast majority of attacks go unreported, and people are left in the dark when their personal data have been hacked, leaked, stolen or sold. If we are to talk meaningfully about data ownership, we cannot allow that to continue. We welcome yesterday’s announcement that the Government will be implementing the general data protection regulation. As the Minister knows, the GDPR provides for a general obligation on all companies to report breaches to regulators and customers. Will he make it clear how he expects to fulfil that obligation and whether he is willing to accept the new clause?

Fundamentally, we are keen that the UK’s digital economy is not seen as a soft touch on cybercrime. That is why the new clause would impose a general obligation on data controllers to notify the Information Commissioner and data subjects in the event of breaches of personal data security. We believe that that would be a major step forward, and we look forward to the Minister’s comments.

[Matt Hancock]

I hope that we can deal with this new clause fairly quickly. I strongly support the hon. Lady’s assertion that cyber-security is vital, and I appreciate her welcome for the national cyber-security strategy that the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out today. People say that there are two types of company: those that have had a cyber-attack and know about it; and those that have had one and do not know about it. It is vital that cyber-security is a priority for all companies that use the internet.

As the hon. Lady said, we have announced that the general data protection regulation will apply in the UK from May 2018. That new regime will introduce tough measures on breach notification, making it a requirement for all data controllers and processors to report data breaches to the Information Commissioner if they are likely to result in a risk to the rights and freedoms of individuals. Breaches must also be notified to the individuals affected where there is a high risk to their rights and freedoms. Under the GDPR, the sanctions available will be worth up to 4% of total global annual turnover, or €20 million, so it will be strongly in the interests of organisations to comply with the requirements.

I suggest that the bringing into UK law of the GDPR is the appropriate place to make the change that the hon. Lady suggests in her new clause. I therefore ask her to withdraw the motion.

[Louise Haigh]

If the Government intend to implement regulations in May 2018, I am not convinced why they cannot amend this legislation now.

[Matt Hancock]

The implementation of GDPR is a much bigger piece of work than simply this change. It is better to bring the whole thing in properly and in good order, rather than piecemeal.

[Louise Haigh]

It is highly unsatisfactory that, for the next 18 months, companies receiving cyber-attacks will still not be reporting them to customers that have had their data stolen, hacked or lost, but it is welcome that the Government will be implementing the general data protection regulation. The Opposition will continue to scrutinise the implementation of their cyber-security strategy, so, with the Minister’s assurances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

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[Louise Haigh]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second Time.

The new clause is a very simple amendment, one that I hope the Committee will agree is long overdue. The Communications Act 2003 ensured that access services—subtitles, audio description or sign language—are available on TV that is watched at a prescribed time and channel.

The way in which we watch and consume television has changed considerably since 2003; it is worth remembering that once the Communications Act 2003 reached Royal Assent, it would be a full five years before BBC iPlayer launched online. Similar on-demand services launched in the same year. Although subtitling is at or near 100% across the public service broadcasters, 76% of the UK’s 90 on-demand providers still offer no subtitles at all—despite the fact that, according to Ofcom’s figures, some 18% of the UK population use them.

The principles behind the Communications Act 2003 recognise that those with sensory loss should not be denied access to the information and services that many of us take for granted. Obviously, that principle still applies, yet, because of changes to technology, those with sensory loss cannot keep up.

In July 2013, the then Minister for the Digital Economy acknowledged this paradox, saying:

“If it is clear that progress isn’t being made in three years’ time…we will consider legislation.”

We say that time is up. That is why the Opposition have helpfully brought forward a new clause to remind the Government of their commitment. The clause would merely update the existing regulatory regime that has worked so well for linear TV and apply it to on-demand.

There is no reason to believe that a burden will be imposed. The current code has a sliding scale for access services provision so that new and smaller broadcasters are either exempt or have gradually increasing targets. No linear broadcasters are ever required to spend more than 1% of their relevant turnover on access services. The new clause would be subject to public consultation. It is eminently reasonable and long overdue. It is clearly time the Government acted to reflect the digital world in which we live and allowed those with sensory loss to play a full and active part in it.

[Matt Hancock]

The creation of a digitally inclusive society is a crucial commitment for this Government. If somebody is not able to enjoy and exploit the benefits and convenience afforded to able bodied people, it is for us to better understand why and to work with interested parties to identify and implement a remedy.

The current statutory targets for subtitling, signing and audio description—collectively known by domestic TV channels as “access services”—cover 83 channels, over 90% of the audience share for broadcast TV. Over the years, the provision of access services has increased. Most notably, the number of service providers reporting subtitles grew from seven channels in 2013 to 22 in 2015. However, there is still clearly room for improvement.

We have become a society that wants to watch TV at a time and place convenient for us. As with much of the Bill, changes in technology outgrow the underpinning regulatory framework. It is not unreasonable to expect that content should have subtitles when it is made available at a time and place that are convenient for the viewer—even more so if access services were present at the scheduled broadcast time.

Ofcom currently possesses the power to encourage the 116 on-demand services providers in the UK to provide these services, but it does not have the power to require them. We have been considering what can be done—as the hon. Lady might imagine, given the previous commitment. We have been engaged in discussion with Ofcom to determine how we can address the shortcoming so that an increase in the provision of access services for video on demand can be achieved. We will continue that engagement with Ofcom. It made its position clear in evidence to the Committee, having previously argued that the law as it stood was what was needed.

I urge the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause. It would require a code of practice that would be too prescriptive and would get into the micromanagement that we talked about earlier in our consideration of the Bill. Also, I would want the clause to specify that it is for Ofcom, not the Secretary of State, to make such a code.

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[Louise Haigh]

I would be grateful if the Minister gave us a firm timeframe for this work with Ofcom; this is yet another area that could easily have been addressed in the Bill. He is saying, “Work is ongoing. We might come back to it later.” There are so many areas of the Bill that could have been addressed by ongoing work. It all shows yet again that the Bill should have been delayed and brought forward when it was fit for Committee and ready to tackle all the issues.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady is clearly wrong about that, for two reasons. First, I do not want to delay the other measures in the Bill; she seems to want to delay a whole series of things that will improve mobile roll-out and broadband roll-out and will put age verification in place, and I think that would be a mistake.

Secondly, in the Committee’s consideration of the Bill, we have had opportunities for further debate that have not been taken up. That shows that there has been full and proper scrutiny of the whole Bill. In this case, after the publication of the Bill, Ofcom said that it thought there was a need for the change in the law. We should take that seriously, consult Ofcom and consider exactly what needs to happen.

[Louise Haigh]

I repeat that in July 2013, the Minister’s predecessor said:

“If it is clear that progress isn’t being made in three years’ time…we will consider legislation.”

The Government have had more than three years to do this. It is not that Ofcom came forward after the Bill was published. The Bill presented a perfect opportunity, so will he commit to the exact timeframe for giving Ofcom the powers?

[Matt Hancock]

Ofcom previously said that it had all the necessary powers, but its position has changed. When the regulator changes position, it is reasonable to take that into account and to consult on ensuring that we can get the powers into place.

I make no bones about it: the support for access services for video on demand has not been in place before. We made big strides in the previous Parliament. We are committed to doing more to ensure that the support is more widely available. Instead of the tone of delay that is coming from those on the Opposition Benches, we should have a tone of support. That is what I propose, so I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause.

[Louise Haigh]

It is completely outrageous to suggest that we are the ones arguing for delay.

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[Louise Haigh]

The digital economy is the fastest growing area of the UK economy. We are very proud that, as a proportion of GDP, it is the largest in the G20. It employs more than 1.3 million workers, of whom a significant proportion—many more will not be categorised in that figure—are employed in the so-called gig economy. As we heard following the Uber ruling on Friday, many of those people do not enjoy very basic workers’ rights. The London employment tribunal found that Uber was a transportation business and that the drivers who work through the app do work for Uber. The judgment against Uber was hailed as a landmark by the union that brought the claim, GMB, and rightly so. I am a proud member of that union.

Friday’s landmark ruling should have ripple effects across the entire digital economy. At its best, the disruptive force of technology is reframing our relationship with each other and the world around us, whether that is farmers using millimetre-accurate GPS to guide their crops or technical experts in safety-critical industries using live data to monitor the manufacturing process. While the digital economy is heralding an unprecedented opportunity for many, the reality can be very different for the more than a million workers employed within the industry. Too often they will find themselves overworked, underpaid and exploited by bosses they never meet, and who do not even fulfil their basic duties as an employer.

Uber is the totemic example. Their “workers”—who pay Uber commission for every taxi ride completed—are not guaranteed breaks, holiday pay or even the minimum wage. Astonishingly, Uber did everything they could to argue to the tribunal that these people were not employees or workers. The judgement states that

“Any organisation (a) running an enterprise at the heart of which is the function of carrying people in motor cars from where they are to where they want to be and (b) operating in part through a company discharging the regulated responsibilities of a PHV [private hire vehicle] operator, but ( c) requiring drivers and passengers to agree, as a matter of contract, that it does not provide transportation services…and (d) resorting in its documentation to fictions, twisted language and even brand new terminology, merits, we think, a degree of scepticism.”

We could not agree more, and it is a bitter irony that a force that is making this era one of the most inter-connected in history has left many workers more isolated than ever before. The Government—who have promised to look out for those that are “just managing”—seem to have been blindsided by the challenges faced by the most enterprising of workers in our economy. There are few workers who would better match that description of “just managing” than the taxi drivers who work upwards of 60, 70 and 80 hours per week and still struggle to pay their bills.

The new clause goes further than the Uber ruling; it would require drivers and other workers to be treated as employees of digital intermediaries. In so doing, their rights to sick pay and holiday pay would be protected as well as the right to paid breaks and the right to the bare minimum wage. When companies such as Uber inevitably try to wriggle out of their responsibilities by appealing against this recent decision, they will have nowhere to go.

We hope that the Government will step into the breach and move to enshrine the rights of workers employed in this emerging sector in law. This decision applies solely to Uber, but the principle should surely hold across the economy. It could affect many tens of thousands of people. So far, the Government’s only announcement has been a two-sentence press release issued on a Friday afternoon referring to a review that has no end in sight. If that is all that the Government can muster, it is hard to believe that they have grasped the scale of the challenge. This will be creating considerable insecurity for both the businesses operating in the digital economy and the workers involved.

I hope that the Minister is acutely aware of both the urgency and the importance of new clause 21 and why it was wholly inadequate for there to be no mention of workers and their protections in the Digital Economy Bill. Hopefully, the Minister will go away and consider measures that will fill the legal vacuum now created, and provide reassurance to the burgeoning digital workforce who, by virtue of a technological sleight of hand, are denied the rights that many of us take for granted. That is clearly an injustice of the first order.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady asks for us to act, and then sets out the way in which we are acting. That demonstrates that this important area is being considered by the Government.

Technology is indeed changing employment patterns, and the system must keep up with it. Clearly, employers must take their employment law responsibilities seriously and they cannot simply opt out of them. This means making sure that workers are paid properly and enjoy the employment rights to which they are entitled. As a very strong supporter of the living wage and the national living wage, which we introduced, I am a great proponent of ensuring that the labour market operates fairly. Part of that fairness is making sure that it is also flexible. That needs to be considered too, alongside the rights.

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[Matt Hancock]

I have no doubt that Matthew Taylor will get in contact with lots of trade unions. It is a good idea to take a cross-party approach. The review will last for about six months and among other things it will consider security, pay and rights, skills and progression, and specifically the appropriate balance of rights and responsibilities of new business models and whether the definitions of employment status need to be updated to reflect new forms of working such as on-demand platforms. It will tackle some of those issues. With that explanation, I hope that the hon. Lady will see that we are taking a sensible, reasonable approach and will withdraw her new clause.

[Louise Haigh]

The Opposition have been nothing but reasonable in Committee. The Minister refers to righteous anger; for those taxi workers in London, Sheffield and across the country who are working and not guaranteed paid breaks or the minimum wage, it is not righteous anger but justifiable anger on their behalf. We are arguing not against all flexibility but for those basic rights to be enshrined in law. They should never be compromised for anyone’s convenience.

We are pleased finally to see a timeframe and have a commitment that the review will report back in six months. We will keep a close eye on the review and hope that it will take note of today’s debate. With that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 31

Review of information disclosure and data ownership

‘(1) The Secretary of State must commission an independent review of information disclosure and data ownership under Chapter 1 of Part 5 of this Act.

(2) In conducting the review, the designated independent reviewer must consult—

(a) specialists in data sharing,

(b) people and organisations who campaign for the rights of citizens to privacy and control regarding their personal information, and

(c) any other persons and organisations the review considers appropriate.

(3) The Secretary of State must lay a report of the review before each House of Parliament within six months of this Act coming into force.

(4) The Secretary of State may not make an order under section 82(4) bringing the provisions of Chapter 1 of Part 5 of this Act into force until each House of Parliament has passed a resolution approving the findings of the review mentioned in subsection (3).’.—(Louise Haigh.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

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[Louise Haigh]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

This new clause would mean that mobile phone service providers must give all consumers the opportunity to put a financial cap on their monthly mobile phone bill and that a mobile phone service cannot be provided until the service provider has put in place a cap of the agreed amount, if the consumer has made an express request. The new clause would be welcomed by many who have found that, when they receive an email or check their bank balance at the end of the month, their monthly mobile phone bill has come in much higher than expected.

The reason for the new clause is clear: mobile phone tariffs are complex, particularly on data. Few of us understand how much data we need for an average month, and consumers of all kinds can find that they use much more data than expected. Citizens Advice has provided me with an example that reveals the problem. One man changed his shift patterns and started using his phone to watch films during the night. His network sent a text message to tell him that he had gone over his monthly allowance, but he did not think too much about it until he received a bill for more than £2,000 at the end of the month. His service was subsequently cut off. Research suggests that as many as one in five consumers finds it difficult to keep track of how much they spend on data. The average unexpectedly high bill is usually double the cost of the original monthly fee.

Citizens Advice has received more than 60,000 inquiries about telephone and broadband debt, with its in-depth specialists dealing with nearly 27,000 individual mobile phone debt cases. Mobile phones have become a staple of our everyday life, and a voluntary cap would help consumers, particularly those who can ill afford an occasional doubling of their bill. Consumers support the measure, with more than 77% welcoming the idea.

This is not the first time that the proposal has been considered. In 2012, Ofcom considered introducing regulations but could not overcome the objections of providers, who argued that it would be too costly. Since then, two mobile phone providers have led the way and proved that it can be done. With the Bill’s new provisions on Ofcom appeals, I hope the Government will now consider our new clause.

[Matt Hancock]

The new clause seeks to place a mandatory obligation on mobile phone service providers to agree a financial cap on monthly bills with the customer at the time of entering into the contract, or to secure an agreement from the customer that they do not wish to have a financial cap. Consumers can avoid bill shocks in a number of different ways, so this additional measure is not necessary.

Before purchasing a mobile contract, consumers can already calculate their normal usage based on their last couple of bills. Once a consumer has established their monthly usage, Ofcom-accredited comparison websites are available to them. In fact, the Bill makes further progress on switching. Mobile phone providers are also taking steps to protect their customers from bill shock. As the hon. Lady says, many providers alert customers when they are close to reaching usage allowance limits and offer apps that enable consumers to monitor that usage.

[Matt Hancock]

I do not think that is true. There are examples of contracts that have caps or prepayment. Such contracts exist and they would not be complemented by the new clause, which is about ensuring that information and agreement are available at the start of a contract. The new clause proposes that such an agreement is available or that the person explicitly chooses not to have a cap, which in substance is the same position as now—it would just change what is in the vast quantities of small print at the bottom of these contracts.

[Louise Haigh]

The provisions in the new clause will not be a negative process, as the Minister has just outlined; they will require people to request a cap, rather than to agree that a cap is not put in place. Does the Minister honestly believe that enough information is provided when customers negotiate a contract with a telecoms provider about how much data are going to cost and how much additional data—over the agreed limit—will cost? Does the law currently guard against the example I provided of the gentleman who was watching films, completely oblivious to the fact that he was running up a bill of hundreds of pounds?

[Matt Hancock]

I think that that information has to be provided. Further, it is Ofcom’s job to ensure that that sort of information is provided in a reasonable way, and it has the capability to do that.

Can we guard against anybody using a mobile phone in a way completely different to their own intention at the point of signing the contract, having not taken into account the impact of that behaviour on the price? It is very hard to do that. I also do not see how the new clause would do that. It would simply change the way that a contract is written in the first place, giving the same options of either a capped or non-capped contract. It still provides for the two, so I do not think it would make a substantive difference.

That is not to deny that there is not always a challenge here to make sure that people get the best possible information, and crucially that switching is available and, as is provided for, that if somebody enters into a contract and wants to change that contract shortly after entering into it, they have the ability to do so. One provider now gives new customers the ability to put on a block on outgoing calls after they have reached their allowance, which they can turn on and off via their account, for example. There are dynamic ways of dealing with this within contracts, and I think that is probably the best way to do it, rather than with primary legislation.

Having said all of that, I of course recognise that this is an important and challenging area, but I hope that with that explanation the hon. Members will withdraw the new clause.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister has not given us a good enough reason for why consumers should not have the ability to put a financial cap on their monthly bills. He has laid out some voluntary mechanisms that various communications providers have implemented, which is all well and good for their customers, but I am sure he will accept that that is a very haphazard way to deal with this issue.

[Matt Hancock]

The proposal in the new clause is itself a voluntary proposal, because it provides for the agreement from a customer should they not wish to see a financial cap. In substance, that is exactly what the new clause provides for.

[Louise Haigh]

It is voluntary for the consumer but not for the telecoms provider. The Minister, in his typical, patronising way, is trying to put this differently from how the Opposition is putting it.

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[Matt Hancock]

It is highly appropriate to end this sitting with the new clause because the intent behind it has cross-party support from both parts of the Opposition represented here. Government Members not only recognise, but are enthusiastic and passionate about getting better wi-fi on trains. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, as a Transport Minister and more specifically a Rail Minister, was instrumental in getting Britain to where we are with wi-fi on trains. It is something all MPs understand as we travel around the country. Our frustration is shared by the great British travelling public and the demands for better and faster free wi-fi on trains will continue until they are sated.

Requiring free wi-fi on trains has been undertaken through new franchises and implemented also in existing franchises. The obligation to provide free wi-fi is now secured in 10 of the 15 franchises and we forecast that more than 90% of passenger journeys will have access to wi-fi by the end of 2018 and almost 100% by 2020. There have been further programmes, such as the superconnected cities programme. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley says she wants to press us to achieve all we can, and we accept the challenge.

For all new franchises, the current specifications will require a minimum of 1 megabit per second per passenger, which allows for web browsing, basic email and social media activity. Crucially, this is set to increase by 25% every year with a focus on ensuring that it is reliable and consistent because dropped calls or frequent breaks in ability to access wi-fi are seriously frustrating.

There are even stronger bids in some competitions. For example, the East Anglia franchise, which I use a lot, will provide up to 100 megabits per second to the train by 2019, then 500 megabits per second by 2021 and 1 gigabit per second by the end of 2021 on key intercity routes, not least the Norwich in 90 and Ipswich in 60 plans. That is totally brilliant and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes for making it happen.

Wi-fi was previously dependent on mobile coverage that trains went through, but train operators have started to innovate and have done deals with mobile operators to make sure they have enough 4G coverage down the track. Chiltern is an example. It agreed a deal with EE to provide 100% coverage from London to Birmingham. This is happening. Specifying a particular technology in legislation is likely to provide more problems than solutions. Our changes in driving wi-fi through contracts with operators is more likely to be successful in getting more connectivity faster. That is the approach I propose.

In a moment, I will ask the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley to withdraw the motion, but first I want to pay tribute to all the people who have helped to make this Committee happen, including the Opposition. We have had cheerful and sometimes forthright debates, but in the best spirit of improving the digital economy for all the citizens we serve. I pay tribute particularly to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley who, in her first performance in her new position, has shown the rest of us how to do it. She has been charming and brilliant. I can only say, thank goodness for Jeremy Corbyn.

I thank you, Mr Stringer, and Mr Streeter for chairing the Committee so effectively and efficiently, and for ensuring that I made fewer mistakes than I otherwise would. I thank the Clerk and the staff of the Public Bill Office, who have helped enormously to keep us on the straight and narrow. I thank the Doorkeepers for holding the doors open long enough for my Whip to ensure that we had all our people here when necessary. I thank the Hansard reporters for no doubt capturing us accurately, in sometimes quite complicated language. I thank the police, my officials in DCMS—in particular the Bill team—and also those from across Government, because the Bill has measures in it from many different Departments. There has been great cross-Government collaboration and I put on record my thanks to my policy officials, the Bill team and my private office team. I thank all those who have given oral or written evidence to the Committee, which has improved our ability to scrutinise the Bill. With that, I hope that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley will withdraw this final new clause and we can report to the House a well-scrutinised Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

It is very welcome to hear that all new franchise agreements—the Minister is nodding—will contain a requirement for wi-fi. I am happy to withdraw the motion.

Before I do, I add my thanks to you, Mr Stringer, and to Mr Streeter. You have both kept us in order and guided us through, particularly me in my first time on the Front Bench in a Bill Committee. I was put in this job two days before the Committee proceedings began, when I had not yet read the Bill. To say that this was being thrown in at the deep end is something of an understatement. I add particular thanks to the Clerk, who has been incredibly helpful in getting our last-minute amendments together, to the Hansard writers, to the police and Doorkeepers, and of course to all the civil servants who have been in and out of here through a revolving door as we have cantered through the various clauses. I also thank all my hon. Friends who have contributed, SNP Committee members and Government Committee members. I thank both Whips who have kept us to time—we are going to get there eventually.

It has been unsettling to agree with the Minister on so many things but I have been very relieved to find that he still manages to infuriate me. I believe we have stress-tested the Bill pretty roundly. We have found it wanting in several areas and I am confident that it will receive amendments in the other place. I am disappointed to see it emerge relatively unscathed from Committee, but I am confident that it will return from the other place in better shape. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Schedule 1

Electronic communications code: consequential amendments

“Part 1

General provision

Interpretation

1 In this Part—

“the commencement date” means the day on which Schedule 3A to the Communications Act 2003 comes into force;

“enactment” includes—

(a) an enactment comprised in subordinate legislation within the meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978,

(b) an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for Wales,

(c) an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, an Act of the Scottish Parliament, and

(d) an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, Northern Ireland legislation;

“the existing code” means Schedule 2 to the Telecommunications Act 1984;

“the new code” means Schedule 3A to the Communications Act 2003.

References to the code or provisions of the code

2 (1) In any enactment passed or made before the commencement date, unless the context requires otherwise—

(a) a reference to the existing code is to be read as a reference to the new code;

(b) a reference to a provision of the existing code listed in column 1 of the table is to be read as a reference to the provision of the new code in the corresponding entry in column 2.

(2) This paragraph does not affect the amendments made by Part 2 of this Schedule or the power to make amendments by regulations under section 6.

(3) This paragraph does not affect section 17(2) of the Interpretation Act 1978 (effect of repeal and re-enactment) in relation to any reference to a provision of the existing code not listed in the table.

Table

Digital Economy Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 10th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 27th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Louise Haigh]

I welcome the other Minister back to his place, and I look forward to the lengthy correspondence that the Cabinet Office Minister and I will be having. The Minister for Digital and Culture and I also had lengthy correspondence when he was at the Cabinet Office, and I look forward to that continuing.

Will the Minister lay out what the clause seeks to achieve? What reports would Ofcom publish under this power that it currently cannot? Would this extend to requesting and publishing information that was referenced in an earlier debate—right at the beginning on part 1—potentially in relation to existing broadband and communications infrastructure and to where Openreach and other providers are rolling out broadband in order to ensure a more effective market? The Opposition welcome all attempts by regulators and Government to make as much data open as possible, so we very much welcome the powers in the clause.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Clause 69 allows Ofcom to prepare and publish reports on underlying data at times it considers appropriate as opposed to at specified times, as is currently the case. The short answer to the hon. Lady’s question is yes. Before the end of the year, Ofcom will publish a “Connected Nations” report, for example, which typically goes into detail about the connectivity of the infrastructure, but there are restrictions at the moment on when these can be published. We think it is better to allow Ofcom to prepare and publish reports at times that it considers appropriate.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 69 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 70 and 71 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 72

Provision of information to OFCOM

[Matt Hancock]

I beg to move amendment 177, in clause 72, page 70, line 15, after “135”, insert “of the Communications Act 2003”.

This amendment makes it clear that the Act amended by clause 72 is the Communications Act 2003.

The amendment corrects a minor error to clause 72. We omitted the words

“of the Communications Act 2003”.

I consider this to be a pretty technical amendment.

Amendment 177 agreed to.

Clause 72, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 73

Information required from communications providers

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

I would like to put on the record again that this Bill was clearly not ready for Committee. We have just seen another example of an amendment that was completely uncalled for. In the last part, amendments had to be withdrawn that were incorrect. I hope that the proposals are properly examined in the Lords and that this is not a recurring theme throughout future legislation that this Government introduce. It is very disappointing to see the lack of preparation for this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Amendment 177, which was agreed on a cross-party basis, corrects what was in fact a printing error. I hope that the hon. Lady will withdraw her rather pernickety point. I am glad that the Committee has had the opportunity to correct the problem.

[Louise Haigh]

It is good to hear that it was the 177th amendment that the Government have had to table to this Bill.

Let us move on to clause 73. The Minister will be pleased to hear that we welcome the clause, which has clearly been drafted with consumers at its heart. The clause provides Ofcom with powers to require information that will enable and empower consumers to switch, thereby creating a much more efficient and open market with fewer barriers to entry.

Ofcom does not currently have powers to require communications providers to provide information on quality of service, such as how they are doing on customer service, complaints, fault repairs or the speed of installation, and it does not have the power to specify how it would want that information to be provided. We welcome these new powers, which will make it much easier for Ofcom to publish this important comparative information that will help consumers.

I would be grateful if the Minister expanded on the points raised in relation to clause 69. He said that BT is about to be forthcoming with information on its existing infrastructure and on the roll-out of broadband. Can he confirm whether that information has been provided? If not, when does he expect it to be provided?

Subsection (5) of proposed new section 137A of the Communications Act 2003 states that the power conferred on Ofcom

“is to be exercised by a demand, contained in a notice served on the communications provider”.

Prior to that, a draft notice will stipulate a reasonable notice period. Can the Minister give us some examples of what he would consider to be a reasonable notice period for a particular dataset? Will that be in negotiation with a provider, or will it be set by Ofcom? What will be the consequence for communications providers that refuse to comply? Finally, how quickly would he like to see Ofcom publish the publishable data after receiving them from a communications provider?

We are happy to support clause 73 stand part.

[Matt Hancock]

Clause 73 paves the way for greater access to information to help consumers make more informed decisions. The hon. Lady has set out exactly why that is needed. The clause will also enable Ofcom to require providers to collect, retain or generate data for these purposes and to ensure that consumers are easily able to access information that is most relevant to their decision. The power will enable Ofcom to require information in machine-readable formats, for example, so that third parties can mash it and provide it in a usable, meaningful and accessible way for the consumer, thereby helping things such as comparison websites, which we strongly support.

On the hon. Lady’s specific questions, the data will form part of Ofcom’s data publication before the end of the year. She asked about a reasonable notice period, which will be for negotiation with providers. It is for Ofcom to decide when it is appropriate to make a publication, and it will endeavour to do so as soon as possible. On the consequences for providers that do not supply the data, these are highly regulated markets in which Ofcom has significant powers, some of which we are enhancing elsewhere in the Bill, so there will be very serious consequences for a provider that does not abide by a requirement from Ofcom to publish. I hope that answers the questions.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 73 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 74

Appeals from decisions of OFCOM and others: standard of review

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

The clause will reform the appeals process against Ofcom decisions, speeding up the process and ensuring that consumers’ interests are better prioritised. The Communications Act 2003 states clearly that Ofcom’s principal duty is to further the interests of citizens and consumers, but clearly there are issues with how the current appeals process works.

The current process is that Ofcom makes a decision following full consultation with the industry and the public; under the Competition Appeal Tribunal rules, an affected body can then appeal against the decision. Ofcom has six weeks to lodge its defence, and a month later substantive appeals are considered in a court case management conference, at which procedural and substantive points are raised. Third parties can then intervene, after which the appellant can lodge a reply. About a month before the hearing, the parties can lodge skeleton arguments. The hearing then takes place, and judgment is usually reserved. That judgment can take anything from weeks to up to a year. Parties then have about three weeks to decide whether they want to go to the Court of Appeal.

Not only is that process incredibly cumbersome, but it allows for considerable new evidence and new parties to the appeal, of which Ofcom had no knowledge at the consultation phase, to be brought forward mid-process. Under the new system, both the process of gathering evidence, including for the cross-examination of witnesses and experts, and the general treatment of that evidence are designed to be slimmed down. The system will still allow for an appeal, of course—that is only right for the sake of justice—but it will ensure that the appeals process does not unduly benefit those who can afford to litigate. It is alleged that it is currently those with the deepest pockets who bring forward the greatest number of appeals; indeed, most appellants have far deeper pockets than Ofcom has to defend itself with.

I have heard the concerns of some within the industry about the changes, as I am sure the Minister has. Although we are in favour of the Government’s proposals, I would appreciate the Minister’s response to some of those concerns. In a submission to the Committee, a group of the largest communications providers has claimed that the current appeals regime works well for consumers and has delivered consumer benefits to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds.

[Louise Haigh]

I agree, and although I support the Government’s objective, it is of concern that such a wide range of communications providers—the biggest investors in communications infrastructure in the UK—are so vehemently opposed to the changes. This is exactly what the Committee stage of any Bill is designed for: to test out arguments and make sure that the right thing is being done. Will the Minister confirm what impact assessment of the proposals has been made, and what benefit he anticipates the changes will bring to consumers?

The submission that I mentioned claims that if the proposed regime had been in place, the mobile call termination case in 2007 would have led to a £265 million loss to consumers over the two-year period from 2010 to 2012. It states that

“in each of the cases cited, the Tribunal’s decision was that Ofcom’s decision had not gone far enough in consumers’ favour. The quantifiable financial impact of these appeals totalled a net benefit to consumers of around £350-400m.”

It says that the merits review

“enabled these errors to be corrected, the finding of the Government’s 2013 research was that on a JR”—

judicial review—

“standard, each of these decisions would have stood unadjusted.”

No one is saying that Ofcom will get things right 100% of the time—clearly, it will not. The new appeals process is not saying that either, but it will substantially raise the bar for appeals by allowing only regulated bodies to contest how a decision was made. Is the Minister confident that the decisions cited in the evidence from BT and the other providers would still be corrected under the new regime? The providers claim that they would not.

We have heard mixed messages about whether the proposals will bring the communications regulator in line with other utilities regulators. Ofcom told us in evidence that they would do just that, but is it not the case that the price control decisions of both Ofgem and Ofwat are subject to merits review by the Competition and Markets Authority? Will the Minister confirm why that is the case for other industries but not for communications?

On SMEs, techUK is particularly concerned that the higher bar of judicial review will have a disproportionate impact on smaller providers, which brought 17% of appeals between 2010 and 2015. I would be grateful if the Minister assured us that his Department has fully considered the impact these changes will have on SMEs, and particularly on new entrants to the market.

I understand that there will always be winners and losers in any regulatory change. The Minister will no doubt enjoy basking under the adoring gaze of TalkTalk and Three, but he will have to live with the fact that he is in BT’s and Virgin’s bad books for now. What is also clear is that for most people this appeals regime is far from well understood, as the industry claims. In fact, they would find it very difficult to understand why changes that could benefit them are being held up, sometimes for years on end, and why big communications providers are spending millions of pounds on litigation when they should be ploughing that money into helping their customers.

That is no basis on which to continue an appeals regime that leads to excessive litigation and smothers changes that may help—indeed, in some cases, may transform—consumers’ relationships with their communications providers. Clearly, during the exercise of that duty, Ofcom will be required to intervene and make a ruling, which sometimes the industry may not like.

If the broad contention on this side is that Ofcom should be given further powers to ensure that the industry acts in the best interests of consumers, there is little point in allowing an appeals process to continue that is so lengthy that it can render any changes useless. One particularly compelling example given in the evidence session was about the need for far greater switching for consumers. The chief executive of Three remarked that we are at the bottom of the class in terms of switching, and that despite nearly a decade of campaigning little has been done to get rid of provider-led switching. That was because when Ofcom tried to legislate on it, to enable consumers to switch, one of the major mobile providers was able to litigate and push the matter into the long grass, from where it has not emerged until today.

With all that in mind, and pending answers to the questions that I have put to the Minister, we are happy to support the clause.

[Matt Hancock]

That was an excellent assessment of the pros, cons and challenges around the proposed changes to appeals. Much of the analysis and thinking that the hon. Lady has just set out is what we went through in coming to the same conclusion that it is sensible to change the appeals process.

I will set out some of the detail of the changes and then I will answer the specific questions that were put. The clause alters the standard review applied by the Competition Appeal Tribunal when deciding appeals brought under the Competitions Act 2003 against decisions made by Ofcom. This is in order to make the appeals process more efficient. The changes will not apply to appeals against decisions made by Ofcom using powers under the Competition Act 1998 or the Enterprise Act 2002.

Currently, appeals can be brought and decided on the merits of a case, and this exceeds and effectively gold-plates article 4 of the EU framework directive that requires that the merits of a case are taken into account in any appeal. The result of this over-implementation is an unnecessarily intensive and burdensome standard of review that can result, as the hon. Lady set out, in very lengthy and costly appeals litigation, which can hinder timely and effective regulation, and risks Ofcom taking an overly risk-averse approach to regulating the sector properly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

I completely accept that we should not have separate regulatory systems for SMEs and larger providers. Will the Minister confirm that the new judicial review process will not unduly hinder SMEs, in contrast to the current “on the merits” appeal process?

[Matt Hancock]

I have looked at that specific point and I am satisfied that the new process does not, because a judicial review can take into account those sorts of concerns but is a more efficient process of appeal.

On the point raised by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, I should say that we have considered using the language of the directive but we do not believe that it materially changes our approach. I said I would get back to the hon. Gentleman; I was a bit quicker than even I expected.

On that basis, I hope that the use of the well-tried and well-tested judicial review will prove a more efficient regulatory basis in future.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister has not addressed a couple of points: the potential loss to consumers that the industry claims the new system will create and the cases that would not have been brought under the existing system; and the mixed messages we have heard about whether the Bill brings Ofcom into line with other utilities regulators.

[Matt Hancock]

On the first point, I am convinced that this change will act in the benefit of consumers, because we will have a quicker regulatory approach. The big incumbents will not be able to hold up a regulatory decision through aggressive use of the appeals process. Instead, we will have a more efficient appeals process. I am convinced that this will improve the situation for consumers.

Of course, it is possible to pick out individual cases that may have gone the other way or may not have been able to be considered under the new approach. First, it is not possible to know whether that is the case without testing them. Secondly, looking at individual cases out of context does not allow us to step back and look at the effective operation of the system as a whole. I am sure the hon. Lady agrees with that approach.

[Louise Haigh]

But is it not the point that those decisions were made by Ofcom and were incorrect, according to the tribunal? They were not made with consumers’ best interests at heart and they would not have been appealed under the new system because the method by which they arrived at those decisions was correct. Is there any scope in the proposals to allow certain examples, such as those put forward by the industry, to be given a merits-based review, as with price control reviews by Ofgem?

[Matt Hancock]

The cases that the hon. Lady and the industry cited have been assessed, and we believe that judgment under a JR system would have gone the same way as under the old system—but quicker. I hope that deals with that concern. JR is used in a large number of other areas. Of course there are specific other cases in which it is not, but it is a strong basis of appeal that is regularly used in public sector decisions. If material error is present, it can then be addressed by judicial review. I hope I have answered the hon. Lady’s questions.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 74 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 75

Functions of OFCOM in relation to the BBC

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

We do not wish to oppose Ofcom’s new role in regulating the BBC, for which clause 75 provides—as the Minister knows, we supported the BBC charter agreement last week in the House—but we have some concerns, which are shared by the BBC, about how Ofcom’s new role will work out in practice.

Distinctiveness is an absolutely vital characteristic of the BBC and its services. It is one of the things that justifies its public funding. The BBC should deliver its public purposes and mission, and it should serve all audiences, through distinctive services. Critically, distinctiveness should be judged at the level of services, rather than programmes. That does not mean that the BBC should focus on “market failure” programming or never make a programme that the commercial sector might make. Instead, the test should be that every BBC programme aspires to be the very best in its genre. Overall, the range of programmes in the BBC services should be distinguishable from its commercial competitors. There is a concern that Ofcom could be too prescriptive in the standards it expects of the BBC. For example, it might focus on quotas, such as the number of religious or news hours, rather than a substantive, qualitative assessment, and rather than a standard, such as high-quality journalism.

Evidence shows that BBC services are distinctive and have become more so in recent years. Audiences agree: more than 80% of the people responding to the Government’s charter review consultation said that the BBC serves audiences well, almost three quarters said that BBC services are distinctive and about two thirds said that they think it has a positive impact on the market.

The definition of distinctiveness in the agreement and the framework for measuring it are therefore critically important. The section of the charter agreement that relates to the new powers that will go to Ofcom requires Ofcom to set prescriptive and extensive regulatory requirements, which must be contained in an operating licence for BBC services. Ofcom must have a presumption against removing any of the current requirements on the BBC—there are about 140 quotas in the BBC’s existing service licences—and seek to increase the requirements overall by both increasing existing requirements and adding new ones.

Ofcom has been given detailed guidance about what aspects of distinctiveness it must consider for the BBC’s TV, radio and online services. That follows an old-fashioned approach to content regulation based on prescribing inputs, rather than securing audience outcomes, such as quality and impact. The BBC is concerned that it will introduce a prescriptive and inflexible regulatory framework that could restrict the BBC’s editorial independence and creativity.

Clarity about the definition of distinctiveness would be welcome. It should be applied to services, not individual programmes. The extensive content quotas in clause 2 of the charter should be a response to a failure to be distinctive, not the starting point.

[Louise Haigh]

That is a very great concern. There is a serious risk of confusion about how the new regulatory regime is going to work for both Ofcom and the BBC. To be frank, I do not think quotas are appropriate in this respect. I have got nothing against quotas—I was selected on an all-women shortlist, which aim to increase the number of women in the parliamentary Labour party.

[Matt Hancock]

You’d have got through anyway.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister is absolutely correct that I would have won it on an open shortlist. It is very kind of him to say that.

But quotas in this respect restrict creativity and innovation, which are prerequisites of distinctiveness. Ofcom, as an independent regulator, should have the freedom to determine how best to regulate the BBC to secure policy goals. I would be grateful if the Minister confirmed what consideration has been given to the impact this will have on the quality programming we have come to expect from the BBC.

Finally, there is a concern that Ofcom may prejudice value for money over public interest. It would significantly reassure the BBC and the public, and would provide a greater degree of certainty over how Ofcom will behave in its enhanced regulatory role, if the same principles applied to the BBC charter—that there must be parity between public interest and value for money—were applied to Ofcom as well.

[Matt Hancock]

I am glad we have cross-party support for the clause, as we do for the BBC charter. It is incredibly helpful to the BBC’s role that it knows that the basis on which it operates and is regulated is supported on a cross-party basis.

It is very important—I will read this clearly on to the record—that distinctiveness as set out in the framework agreement is about BBC output and services as a whole, not specific programmes. Ofcom has the capability to make judgments about the overall distinctiveness of BBC output and services as a whole. That is the basis on which we expect it to operate under this legislation.

The hon. Lady asked whether there should be guidance underneath that. As she set out, there is existing guidance, and the public are very happy in large part with the result of that. I reject the idea that we cannot have any detail underneath the basis that distinctiveness should be decided on BBC output and services as a whole. At the moment, as she set out, there is detail, and it works well.

This is essentially an incremental approach. The BBC already faces this guidance and operates successfully. The clause is not prescriptive in that regard. Ofcom needs to operate in a reasonable way and exercise its judgment to ensure that we get the much-loved BBC operating as well as it can, as it has in the past and as it should in the future.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 75 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 76

TV licence fee concessions by reference to age

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

On the principle that the BBC is responsible for the funding of the BBC according to the licence fee negotiations agreed with the Government. This is a funding decision, and funding issues are for the BBC.

I have given the Opposition a couple of quotations from the head of the BBC about why he agrees with the policy. Let me give them another quotation:

“The Labour party welcomes the fact that the charter provides the BBC with the funding and security it needs as it prepares to enter its second century of broadcasting.”—[Official Report, 18 October 2016; Vol. 615, c. 699.]

Not my words, but those of the boss of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley, the shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson). Well, I agree with her boss—he was absolutely right.

[Louise Haigh]

Will the Minister give way?

[Matt Hancock]

Of course I will give way—if the hon. Lady can explain why she disagrees with her boss.

[Louise Haigh]

I made it clear that we support the BBC charter, but my boss—as the Minister calls him—and I also made it clear that we do not support this element of it.

I have two more quotations to put to the Minister. In the Lords debate on the charter two weeks ago, the assessment of the former BBC director-general, John Birt, was that

“the impact…will be—over the span of a decade—to take almost exactly 25% out of the real resources available to the BBC for its core services. A massive reduction in programming is therefore simply unavoidable.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 October 2016; Vol. 774, c. 1950.]

The former chairman of the BBC Trust, Chris Patten, then said:

“I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said about the licence fee settlement—not just the finance on the table but the way it was done. It was a scandal to do it like that”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 October 2016; Vol. 774, c. 1954.]

The Opposition absolutely agree.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

That is not related to clause 76. What is related to the clause is the fact that the BBC agrees it has the funding it needs, as I set out and as agreed by the shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport.

My next point is about why we are transferring the power and why it would be wrong to adopt new clause 38, which would undermine the BBC’s funding settlement. The reason is that the BBC asked for it. It is incumbent on those who propose new clause 38 and oppose clause 76 to explain why they disagree with the BBC, with this strong settlement and with all those who say that we have provided a good funding settlement for the BBC. Instead of pressing the new clause, I suggest that the hon. Lady should support clause 76, to put the BBC’s funding on a sustainable footing for years to come.

[Louise Haigh]

The hon. Member for Fylde said that he opposed our new clause on two grounds, of which the first was that the BBC provides free TV licences. It does, but we have absolutely no guarantee that it will continue to do so.

The Minister is correct that the BBC asked for this, but as I referred to earlier, the BBC asked for the policy on who should and should not get a free TV licence because the funding was forced on it. It asked for that funding because it wants to reduce the number of people who get free TV licences in the future—it as much as said that to us. We do not want the BBC to have that policy; nor do we want it to have the funding settlement. It is a principle that we fundamentally oppose, so we intend to test the will of the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

Thousands of individuals are plagued by nuisance calls every day. I will turn to that in my remarks on clause stand part, but I shall speak to the amendments and new clause first. We welcome the inclusion in the Bill of a direct marketing code. If it works effectively, it will contain practical guidance and promote good practice in direct marketing activities. It will help to guide the experiences of companies and individuals, but direct marketing, as we know, is fairly narrowly defined and refers to the direct selling of products and services to the public. It is covered under the Data Protection Act 1998 and the privacy and electronic communications regulations. The rules cover not only commercial organisations but not-for-profit organisations such as charities and political parties. The rules for direct marketing are very clear and are becoming —absolutely rightly—increasingly tougher.

There are two types of nuisance call: live marketing calls—unwanted marketing calls from a real person—or automated marketing calls, which are pre-recorded marketing messages that are played when someone answers the phone. They are covered by a raft of legislation and regulation attempting to clamp down on that type of behaviour. Our amendments attempt to broaden the definition of the new direct marketing codes, so the law will cover not only direct consumer marketing but consumer engagement.

Direct marketing uses personal data and demographic insights relating to residence and the habits of people previously to market to people individually and directly. Consumer engagement is much broader and involves the use of personal data to engage with customers for a broad set of business processes, which include, but are not restricted to, direct marketing. TV advertising, for example, is not considered to be direct marketing, but TV advertising campaigns can be designed with information derived from consumer data and used to target broad groups of consumers based on data derived from individuals.

In our view, the direct marketing code, which we very much welcome, and the Information Commissioner’s guidance in this field should cover this broader use of individuals’ data. As we have said throughout, we want data to be used responsibly, and this simple amendment would extend the code to apply to all uses of data in consumer marketing, and not just the kind that is used to directly target people.

[Matt Hancock]

What a welcome return to sense from the Opposition. The amendments tabled to clause 77 relate to the definition of direct marketing, which, as defined in the Data Protection Act, is

“the communication (by whatever means) of any advertising or marketing material which is directed to particular individuals.”

The definition captures any advertising or marketing material, not just commercial marketing, which is a point that the hon. Lady made, as well as all promotional material, including material promoting the aims of not-for-profit organisations. It also covers any messages that include some marketing elements, even if that is not the main purpose of the message.

The privacy and electronic communications regulations put direct marketing by electronic means into the scope of the definition, thus making it applicable to telephone calls, both live and automated, faxes, emails, text messages and other forms of electronic communication. It is essential that the definition of direct marketing in the PECR remains aligned with the definition in the Data Protection Act, so that the Information Commissioner’s Office’s powers of enforcement for nuisance calls to remain effective and enforceable in law.

New clause 34 is intended to amend the PECR, to extend to company directors and other officers liability for breaches when those officers have allowed breaches to occur or when breaches have happened because of something they have failed to do. In that way, the Information Commissioner could impose fines on company officers rather than just on companies as at present. The proposal relates to nuisance calls made by organisations. They are a blight on society, causing significant distress to elderly and vulnerable people in particular.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

I can do better than merely asking the Select Committee, although I do think that Select Committees do important reports and should not be denigrated. Ofcom has also been given a statutory duty to provide a report to the Secretary of State every three years on the state of the UK’s communications infrastructure, including the extent to which UK networks share infrastructure. That is precisely what the new clause asks for as a one-off. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the reports will happen regularly. The next three-yearly report is due in 2017, which is the same time that new clause 1 specifies for its review.

Moving on to new clause 20, we recognise the importance of improving mobile coverage. I support the intention behind it, but I do not think a statutory review is necessary at this time. We already have building blocks in place to deliver extensive mobile connectivity, and it is happening. The changes that we have debated today will give Ofcom the ability to provide data to ensure that we know how effective mobile connectivity is. We have legally binding licence obligations to ensure that each mobile operator provides voice coverage to at least 90% of the UK land mass. Taken together, 98% of the UK will have a mobile signal by the end of 2017, according to the agreements.

[Louise Haigh]

Does the Minister envisage, then, that Ofcom will gather data to produce reports on the extent of mobile coverage against the Government targets set with mobile network operators?

[Matt Hancock]

I do expect that. I can confirm my expectation that that is what Ofcom will do.

[Louise Haigh]

How often does the Minister expect Ofcom to produce those reports?

[Matt Hancock]

We just changed the rules so that instead of being restricted to producing such reports three times a year, Ofcom can do so whenever it thinks it appropriate. That will provide for Ofcom to be able to do so as much as possible, but I committed earlier today to having a connected nations report before the end of this year. I hope that that provides for what the hon. Lady seeks in new clause 20 and that the hon. Members will not press their new clauses.

Digital Economy Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 6th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 20th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Hancock]

I am sure our powers of persuasion will extend that support in the future. The outbreak of support for our manifesto is welcome; this is an incredibly important area, and I am proud to lead the Front-Bench effort to deal with underage people’s access to adult material by introducing age verification. I want to respond in detail to the points made, because it is important we get this right.

Before I come to the specific amendments, I will deal with commercial providers. The measures in the Bill will apply equally to all commercial providers, whether their material is paid for directly or appears on free sites that operate on a different business model. “Commercial” has quite a broad meaning, as my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes said. If a provider makes money from a site in any way, whether or not it makes a profit, it can be caught by the legislation. That is the right distinction, because it targets those who make money and are indifferent to the harm their activities may cause to children.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Matt Hancock]

If the hon. Lady will hold on, I want to explain this in full, rather than in part, before I give way. The age verification regulator must publish guidance on the circumstances in which it will regard a site or app as commercial. It will be for the regulator to judge whether a site is commercial, and there is no definition that states which website platforms are covered. Crucially, the regulator will also be able to take a view if specific social media and other types of sites are ancillary service providers—a person who appears to be facilitating or enabling the making available of pornographic material by non-compliant persons. I think that the capturing of others as ancillary service providers is an important part of making sure that we fully deliver our manifesto commitment, as I believe this Bill does.

[Louise Haigh]

We are aware that “commercial” is not limited to sites that require payment. It includes online advertising and other business models, as the Minister has said. However, it is unclear how the regulator will be able to enforce these measures given that the only enforcement available to them is notifying other payment service providers and ancillary services.

[Matt Hancock]

No doubt we will come on to enforcement. A number of clauses and amendments are on enforcement. The point is that other social media sites can be classified by the regulator as ancillary service providers for facilitating or enabling the making of available pornographic material. Our view is that enforcement through disrupting business models is more powerful because you are undermining the business model of the provider. However, I do not want to get too distracted, in an out of order way, into enforcement which is rightly dealt with in later clauses.

[Louise Haigh]

If the Bill is clearly designed to enable the regulator to focus on social media sites and other ancillary service providers, why was that term “on a commercial basis” included in these sections?

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

My hon. Friend has just given the final paragraph of my speech. With those assurances and the broad support from the BBFC and its enthusiasm to tackle the need for age verification in that way, I hope that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley will withdraw the amendment.

[Louise Haigh]

Quite a lot of clarification is needed, and I hope it will come during the Bill’s passage. I do not think that the distinction between Ofcom and the BBFC is clear in this part of the Bill or in later clauses on enforcement. However, given that it states elsewhere in the Bill that the proposal is subject to further parliamentary scrutiny, and as the BBFC has not yet officially been given the regulator role—as far as I am aware—I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

That is exactly what I am saying. On that basis, with the Government’s position having been put clearly on the record, I hope that my hon. Friend will not press new clause 8 to a vote.

New clause 11 would empower the Secretary of State to introduce regulations in relation to backstop blocking injunctions. We have looked carefully at the option of blocking by ISPs and have talked to a lot of stakeholders about it. We take the problem seriously, and we think our measures will make a real difference. We are yet to be persuaded that blocking infringing sites would be proportionate, because it would not be consistent with how other harmful or illegal content is dealt with. There is also a question of practicality: porn companies would be able to circumvent blocking relatively quickly by changing URLs, and there is an additional risk that a significant number of sites that contain legal content would be blocked. We would need to be convinced that the benefits of ISP blocking would not be outweighed by the risks.

[Louise Haigh]

I am a little confused about how the Minister envisages the provisions being enforced against the free sites we discussed in the previous group of amendments without that additional power, which indeed has been requested by the regulator that the Government have designated.

[Matt Hancock]

As the regulator said, the proposals here mark a huge step forward in tackling the problem. We have to make a balanced judgment: there is a balance to be struck between the extra powers to block and the need to ensure that they are proportionate. The powers are not a silver bullet; sites that were actively trying to avoid the Bill’s other enforcement measures would also be able to actively avoid these measures. It is questionable how much additional enforcement power they would bring, given those downsides.

[Matt Hancock]

Children’s charities and the regulator have asked for action to solve the problem of needing age verification. That is what the Bill delivers. The question of how to enforce that is incredibly important; there are different considerations to be made, and I think the Bill has ended up with the correct balance.

[Louise Haigh]

The BBFC witness explicitly said last week that

“we suggested, in our submission of evidence to the consultation back in the spring, that ISP blocking ought to be part of the regulator’s arsenal.”––[Official Report, Digital Economy Public Bill Committee, 11 October 2016; c. 41, Q91.]

The BBFC says that notification of payment providers or ancillary services providers and fines may not be sufficient. I appreciate that porn sites might well use different URLs to evade it, but why has the Minister explicitly removed ISP blocking as a further backstop power? We are not talking about blocking too many sites; we have been very clear that it is intended as a backstop power when other measures fail.

[Matt Hancock]

David Austin of the BBFC said:

“We see this Bill as a significant step forward in terms of child protection.”––[Official Report, Digital Economy Public Bill Committee, 11 October 2016; c. 42, Q94.]

We think, on balance, that the regulator will have enough powers—for example, through the provisions on ancillary service providers—to take effective action against non-compliant sites. For that reason, I think this is the appropriate balance and I ask my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

In this and related clauses, we seek to strengthen the proposals that the Government have put forward. We have said that the regulation needs to be beefed up to require internet service providers to be notified about non-compliance. We would like to see an injunction power to take down any content which a court is satisfied is in breach of the age-verification legislation, as soon as possible, at the start of the four-tier regulation process the Government have identified in their amendments and letters published to the Committee last week.

That would require a regulator with sufficient enforcement expertise and the ability to apply that injunction and push enforcement at an early stage. As we are aware, however, the BBFC heads of agreement with the Government do not cover enforcement. Indeed, they made perfectly clear that they would not be prepared to enforce the legislation in clauses 20 and 21 as they stand, which is part 4 of that enforcement process, giving the power to issue fines. The BBFC is going to conduct phases 1, 2 and 3 of the notification requirements, presumably before handing over to a regulator with sufficient enforcement expertise, but that has not been made clear so far.

While we welcome the role of the BBFC and the expertise it clearly brings on classification, we question whether it is unnecessarily convoluted to require a separate regulator to take any enforcement action, which will effectively have been begun by the BBFC and which so far has not been mentioned in the legislation. This goes back to the point my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West made earlier about the two separate regimes for on-demand programme services.

As I understand it, although it is not clear, the BBFC will be taking on stage 3 of the regulation, meaning it will be involved in the first stage of enforcement—in notification. That is fine, but it will then have to hand over the second stage of enforcement to another regulator—presumably Ofcom. The enforcement process is already incredibly weak and this two-tiered approach involving two separate regulators risks further delays in enforcement against non-compliant providers who are to protect or take down material that is in breach of the law. In evidence to the Committee, the BBFC said:

“Our role is focused much more on notification. We think we can use the notification process and get some quite significant results.”—[Official Report, Digital Economy Public Bill Committee, 11 October 2016; c. 41, Q83.]

We do not doubt it, but confusion will arise when the BFFC identifies a clearly non-compliant site that is brazenly flouting the law, and it does not have power to enforce quickly but will have to hand it over.

We would also like to hear when the Government are planning to announce the regulator for the second stage and how they intend to work with the BBFC. As far as I can see, this will require further amendments to the Bill. If it is Ofcom, it would have been helpful to have heard its views on what further enforcement powers it would like to see in the Bill, rather than being asked to fill in after the Bill has passed through Parliament. There is a clear danger that the enforcement regulator could be asked to take over enforcement of age verification, which it thinks requires more teeth to be effective.

We therefore have very serious concerns about the process by which clause 17 will be have effect. Although we will not vote against the clause, we want to make it very clear that we would have preferred to have seen an official announcement about who will carry out the enforcement provisions in the Bill before being asked to vote on it.

[Matt Hancock]

The debate on clause stand part is about the set-up of the regulatory structure and making sure that we get designation and funding right. It is our intention that the new regulatory powers and the new regulator or co-regulators will deliver on this. As the hon. Lady says, the BBFC has signed up to be designated as the age verification regulator responding for identifying and notifying. This will enable the payment providers and other ancillary services to start to withdraw services to sites that do not comply as soon as possible.

[Louise Haigh]

In what kind of timeframe does the Minister envisage the payment service providers acting from notification from the BBFC?

[Matt Hancock]

We intend formally to designate the BBFC as regulator in autumn 2017 and expect to be in a position to commence the provisions requiring age verification within 12 months of Royal Assent.

[Louise Haigh]

That was not quite my question. How long does the Minister anticipate that ancillary service providers or payment service providers will take to act on receiving notification from the BBFC that a site is non-compliant?

[Matt Hancock]

I would expect that to happen immediately. The question of the designation of the backstop enforcement regulator does not stop or preclude the BBFC from getting going on this. As we have heard, it is already working to put in place its own internal systems. As I have just said to the Committee, we have a new commitment that we expect to commence the provisions in terms of getting the system up and running within 12 months of Royal Assent; after that, if the BBFC has designated that there is a problem, I would expect action to be immediate, because I expect the BBFC to ensure through good relations that systems are in place.

I see enforcement very much as a back-up to good behaviour. As we have seen with the taking down of child pornography and material related to terrorism, many providers and platforms respond rapidly when such material is identified. It will be far better if the system works without having to resort to enforcement. We will set out in due course who is best placed to be the regulator for enforcement, but the system is new, and the approach provides the level of flexibility that we need to get it right. I have every confidence in the BBFC’s ability and enthusiasm to deliver on these aims, so I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 17 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 18 and 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 20

Enforcement of sections 15 and 19

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

This group of amendments goes even further—they have the straightforward intention of continuing the process of strengthening the powers and, crucially, of speeding up the enforcement period, to help the Government achieve their manifesto commitment. The Bill would give the regulator the power to set a lengthy, if not indefinite, period for ending the contravention of section 15. The amendment would speed up the enforcement, requiring the regulator to issue an enforcement period of one week. Given that we do not anticipate that the BBFC will be the official regulator or have these powers for another 12 months on Royal Assent, we do not anticipate that a one-week enforcement period would be too onerous on content providers.

The group should be seen in tandem with our other amendments providing a backstop power requiring ISPs to block a site, and would send a clear message to content providers that the Government would treat any contravention of section 15 with the utmost seriousness and that continuing to provide content without age verification for a prolonged period of time would not be tolerated. We believe that, if the enforcement powers under clauses 20 and 21 are toughened up, the message will spread throughout the industry and it will make it clear that age verification is not an optional extra, but a central requirement in the effort to tackle what under-18s can see.

[Matt Hancock]

I am sympathetic to the purpose of this group of amendments. We think that decisions on when and how to enforce should be left to the regulator, but I see the point of trying to put a week into the Bill. However, it is overly prescriptive to do so in primary legislation. Our aim is for a proportionate regime, where the regulator can prioritise and deal with problems in a way that is aligned with its goals of protection, rather than having to fulfil legal requirements that might lead to unintended consequences.

[Louise Haigh]

Can the Minister give us any example where a one-week enforcement period would not be doable?

[Matt Hancock]

No, but I cannot—and she cannot—foresee all the circumstances that the regulator will have to deal with. It is far better to have a regulator with flexibility to respond and clear aims and intentions, rather than it having to fulfil an arbitrary timescale because that is in primary legislation.

[Louise Haigh]

Can the Minister confirm whether the legislation enables the regulator to set a time limit for enforcement?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, it will allow the regulator that flexibility. I would rather have that flexibility at the level of the regulator than in primary legislation. I think that is a reasonable approach. The regulator will then be able to act in the way that it is clear from this debate is intended. I hope that on that basis, the amendment may be withdrawn.

[Louise Haigh]

It is useful to have on the record the Minister’s agreement that one week is a suitable enforcement period. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

Given that the Government have been so intransigent on the sensible suggestions for how their proposals could be strengthened, certainly on the issue of internet service provider blocking, I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Minister keeps saying that he does not want to be too prescriptive, but we argue that the phrase “on a commercial basis” is too prescriptive and limits the powers of the age-verification regulator. Given the broad support for additional powers, we want the age-verification regulator and any other regulator involved in enforcement to come back to the House and tell us what additional powers they need to make this work. There are significant loopholes in the Bill and it could have serious unintended consequences for our young people. We completely support the SNP amendment.

[Matt Hancock]

I entirely understand the enthusiasm for commencement, and I have given the commitment that we would expect it within 12 months of Royal Assent. I hope that that deals with the demand for a timing of commencement to be put on the face of the Bill. Unfortunately, that renders the SNP amendment slightly impractical, because it would require a review within 12 months of Royal Assent, but if the Act commences only 12 months after Royal Assent, a review at that point might not show as much progress as we would hope.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

I am grateful. I heard the BBFC or the Open Rights Group say that the incidence was very low, but it would do no harm to build an appeals process into the legislation to ensure that where sites that should not be blocked or require age verification have fallen through the cracks, that can be resolved at the behest of the regulator.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady is absolutely correct that there needs to be an appeals process. That process is provided for in clause 17(4):

“The Secretary of State must not make a designation under this section unless satisfied that arrangements will be maintained by the age-verification regulator for appeals”.

I agree with everything else she said. It is worth remarking on the recent announcement that gay and bisexual men will now be pardoned over abolished sexual offences—that is not in the Bill, so that remark was completely out of order, but I still think it was worth making. Appeals are important; I hope she is satisfied that they are provided for.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 20 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 21 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 22

Age-verification regulator’s power to give notice of contravention to payment service providers and ancillary service providers

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

It was interesting to hear the Minister refer to financial regulations. I was not present on Second Reading because I was not then in the position that I occupy now, but having read that debate I do not believe that there was any such reference. So we would like some clarity on who will be the regulator of the payment service providers and what work has already been done with the Financial Conduct Authority—I assume it will be with the FCA in this circumstance—to ensure that it will be regulating those providers, to make sure that they act with speed and due diligence on receiving notification from the age verification regulator under clause 15.

It is disappointing that the Government do not consider new clause 18 necessary to amend the Bill. I appreciate that the BBFC has been given powers to establish a code of practice, but given the very serious consequences that could result from that not being done correctly, some basic principles need to be embedded into the process, based on the issues that I raised earlier in our discussion.

I will just add that we will return to this issue on Report.

[Matt Hancock]

We have been engaging directly with payment service providers, although—no doubt as and when necessary—engagement with financial authorities will be made. Payment service providers can withdraw services from illegal activity under their existing terms and conditions, so the provision is already there for the measures to take effect.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 22 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 23

Exercise of functions by the age-verification regulator

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

New clause 12 would give the power to the age verification regulator to introduce another code of practice—the Opposition are very fond of them—for internet content providers. [Interruption.] And reviews, we are very fond of reviews.

We have made it clear throughout that we want enforcement to be as tough as possible and for all loopholes to be closed, but we also want to ensure that children are as safe in the online world as they are offline. There absolutely needs to be that parity of protection. That is one reason why we are disappointed, as I mentioned, that these measures came forward in a Digital Economy Bill, where it was incredibly difficult to look at the issues of child protection online in a thoroughly comprehensive way.

The new clause proposes that the regulator should work with industry to create a statutory code of practice, based on BBFC guidelines for rating films and the principles of the ICT Coalition for Children Online. The code would establish a set of minimum standards that would apply consistently to social networks, internet service providers, mobile telecommunication companies and other communication providers that provide the space and content where children interact online.

This is not intended to be an aggressive, regulatory process. We envisage that it will be the beginning of a much broader debate and conversation between regulators and content providers about just how we keep our children safe on the web. This debate will encompass not only ideas such as panic buttons, but education about the online world, which must run in parallel for any process to be effective.

A statutory code would work with providers to lay out how content is managed on a service and ensure that clear and transparent processes are in place to make it easy both for children and parents to report problematic content. It would also set out what providers should do to develop effective safeguarding policies—a process that the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has supported.

As I said, this will clearly be a staged process. We envisage that in order to be effective, the development of a code of practice must involve industry, child protection organisations such as the NSPCC and, crucially, the children and families who use online services. But this code of practice would be based on existing industry and regulatory minimum standards and would require providers to ensure that the safety and wellbeing of children is paramount in the design and delivery of their products and services. The new clause would also empower the Secretary of State to make regulations to ensure effective enforcement of the minimum standards in the code of practice.

The online world can be an enormously positive force for good for our children and young people. It makes available a scale of information unimaginable before the internet existed and there is compelling evidence that that constant processing of information will lead to the most informed generation of children the world has known, but it needs to be made safe to realise that potential. The new clause would give assurance to Opposition Members that we will enable that to happen.

[Matt Hancock]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes for saying that she will not press her amendment and for what she said about the BBFC. Anybody reading the transcript of this debate will see the universal support for the BBFC and its work.

On the point about statutory guidance, through the UK Council for Child Internet Safety we have made guidance available to providers of social media and interactive services to encourage businesses to think about safety by design and help make platforms safer for children and young people under the age of 18. The amendment would make something similar into statutory guidance. I see where the hon. Lady is coming from, but the scale and scope of the internet makes this an unprecedented challenge. Some of the biggest sites have over 2 billion visits per year and UK audiences make up a very large proportion of those. It would be very difficult to have statutory guidance that would be policeable in any complete way. Rather than statutory guidance that could not be dealt with properly, it is better to have non-statutory guidance that we encourage people to follow.

[Louise Haigh]

On that point, does the Minister share my concern about the levels of discontent among those children who are trying to report online through social media? Some 26% received absolutely no response at all and of those that did receive a response, only 16% were satisfied. What more can we do to strengthen that?

[Matt Hancock]

I do recognise that. My point is that making non-statutory guidance statutory will not help in that space, but there is clearly much more to do. I hope that, with that assurance, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes will withdraw the amendment.

[Claire Perry]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

As I have just mentioned in the discussion on the previous clause, some of the biggest sites on the internet have more than 2 billion visits a year. As the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley said, many sites are involved. Allowing discretion for a targeted approach is important. The clause also allows the regulator to

“carry out, commission or support…research…for the purposes of exercising, or considering whether to exercise”

the powers. That is important, too, because we want the regulator to have the power to conduct research to inform its views. Both those things are important parts of the execution of age verification.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister said just now that the clause will stop the BBFC—we are to assume that it will become the age verification regulator—from being in breach of its statutory duties if it goes after the largest pornography providers first. Putting aside the analogy that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West made, which was absolutely right, is it not the case that the age verification regulator does not have many statutory duties? That was the whole purpose behind the amendments of the hon. Member for Devizes. The regulator is required only to—well, it is not required to; it may—give notice to any payment services or ancillary service provider. I fail to see how targeting any content provider first, last or in any other way would put the regulator in breach of any requirement under the Bill.

[Matt Hancock]

I want to make it clear that it can target in order to work as effectively and as soon as it can. I am slightly surprised to find Opposition Members against that principle.

Digital Economy Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 5th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 20th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

I beg to move,

That the Order of the Committee of 11 October be amended as follows—

(1) In paragraph (1), after sub-paragraph (f) insert—

“(g) at 9.25 am on Tuesday 1 November;”.

(2) In paragraph (4), for “5.00 pm on Thursday 27 October” substitute “11.25 am on Tuesday 1 November”.

On Tuesday night, the House approved a motion to extend the Committee. This amendment will provide the additional time required thoroughly to scrutinise the Bill.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

I thank the Government for replacing the sitting that we lost on Tuesday because of the debate that they scheduled on the BBC motion. We do not oppose this amendment, but the Government have tabled more than 130 amendments to the Bill since we agreed the programme motion, in good faith, on the basis that the Bill has 84 clauses. It is now clear that the Bill was not ready to come to Committee.

Not only have the Government tabled more than 130 amendments but they have made significant announcements about who the regulator will be. We welcome the significant publication of the codes of practice that will accompany part 5, but we should have had them earlier in the process. It is the job of Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition to scrutinise the Bill and table amendments, and we will not accept any criticism if the Committee does not get through the whole Bill. The Government should be prepared to add time if we do not make that progress.

[Matt Hancock]

We have been very accommodating on the timings. Not only did we remove the Tuesday afternoon sitting at the request of the Labour party, but we added another sitting at the end. We cancelled the sitting last Thursday afternoon at the request of the Labour party, despite the fact that we wanted it to happen. In fact, the amount of scrutiny in Committee will be less than we originally proposed, at the request of the Labour party. We will not have any truck with that one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Clause 3 will make it easier for customers to claim compensation for service failures and, we hope, help improve customer satisfaction and drive the sector to deliver on its service commitments. The clause is about providing not only compensation but incentives that we hope will make such compensation unnecessary. The clause makes explicit Ofcom’s power to set general conditions on communications providers, requiring them to adhere to automatic compensation regimes as defined by Ofcom. It is part of Ofcom’s remit to protect the interests of end-users.

Telecommunications customers increasingly view their digital connectivity as essential, just as power and water are essential. The clause helps to deliver on those higher expectations. According to research by Ofcom, customers suffering from a loss of broadband service incur on average a direct financial cost of £18, spend an average of four hours trying to resolve the issue, and have to contact their provider an average of three times. Automatic compensation will mean that customers will receive standardised compensation for specific service failures, either without having to complain directly or through a streamlined process.

Ofcom has made a call for inputs and will be consulting with customers, customer groups, industry and all parties that want to enter the consultation, including devolved Governments. It will define which services and service quality issues will be eligible, how much the compensation will be, and the fault-identification and payment processes. The consultation process will ensure that the compensation scheme is fair and proportionate, mitigating the risk of additional costs being passed on to customers.

Clause 3 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 4

The electronic communications code

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

Clause 4 contains changes to the highly complex electronic communications code, as we heard earlier in the debate. We recognise and support the amendments tabled in the Minister’s name, which seek to clarify the web of legal technicalities and ensure that it interconnects with the existing legal landscape; that the new code does not infringe on access to land where the person does not agree to that access being obstructed; and that subsisting agreements continue in place.

Our primary concern is to ensure that the significant savings that the clause will clearly create for the mobile industry are invested in their entirety into infrastructure and roll-out for the public benefit.

We would also like to explore what consideration has been given to how we can ensure that independently-owned infrastructure can have a significant role in the sector and, if possible, make up a larger proportion of our infrastructure in line with the global market. The much-discussed difficulties of the broadband roll-out highlight the issues when infrastructure is owned by a private monopoly. We should seek to break up this market as much as possible. For that to happen, investment incentives for independent infrastructure need to be maintained as they are under the current ECC.

The assets of these small infrastructure providers, which are a valuable part of the market, are dependent on land. We would like a commitment from the Minister that further inevitable redrafts continue to carve out electrical communications apparatus from the definition of land. The benefit of independent infrastructure is the much higher capacity available for all networks to use on an open and non-discriminatory basis. Operators in this space filled more substantial towers, which send signals much further than an average mobile operator-owned mast. That is particularly important in rural areas, where more than half their investments have been made. More networks operating from better infrastructure enable transformational improvements in capacity.

The sector also unlocks significant new inward investment with a low cost of capital from the same funds that invest in UK energy, transport and utility assets. Clearly, significant investment is needed in the UK’s wireless infrastructure. Improving mobile connectivity needs substantial and sustained investment. New communication masts are needed in rural and suburban areas to improve coverage. In urban areas, to support the exponential growth in mobile data usage and provide ubiquitous high-speed connectivity, 5G networks will need hundreds of thousands of small cells connected with a dense network of fibre.

Analysis from Ernst & Young highlights that independently operated towers across Europe and North America host, on average, twice as many networks as vertically-owned towers. The UK is now lagging behind competitive telecoms markets around the world in respect of adopting the more efficient independent model; more than 60% of global and 80% of US masts are now operated independently of the networks that use them. Independent infrastructure can deliver investment in a way that maximises its productivity and enables the greatest level of connectivity.

Furthermore, we are aware that the industry has concerns about the clause given what is known as “stopping up”. That is the procedure that highway authorities use to decommission stretches of public highway. Under the new code, when streets are stopped up, the occupier of the land can give notice to quit and mobile operators would not then be able to cover the cost of relocation.

As I understand it, unlike the other reforms, this reform is intended to apply retrospectively, so we would be interested to hear the Minister’s thinking. More broadly on the clause, clearly the Minister and officials are attempting to make revisions to this enormously complex code, which obstructs or interferes with the means of access to this land.

There is a broader point. Despite the additional powers that the Bill provides to telcos over the landowners, in practice there absolutely must remain a solid working relationship between the two. As we heard in evidence last week, if good relationships are not continued, the industry might as well just go home for the next four to five years and forget about further expanding the network, such is the importance of good relationships and access to allow for upgrading and installing new infrastructure.

Industry evidence suggests that, on average, infrastructure facilities will need to be accessed every 12 days, so we must ensure that the legislation strikes the right balance between increasing access, which will help to upgrade the network, and maintaining a good relationship with the landowners who will help that roll-out.

The clause is intended to improve mobile coverage, so I will go back to something that the Minister said on Tuesday in Committee:

“That is why delivery on this commitment by the MNOs”—

that is, by the mobile network operators—

“is so important. The deal as agreed, which is a legally binding commitment, will result in nearly 100% of UK premises receiving 3G/4G data coverage, and 98% coverage to the UK landmass by the end of 2017.”—[Official Report, Digital Economy Public Bill Committee, 18 October 2016; c. 124.]

Those figures were not immediately familiar to me at the time. As I understand it, they were not in the legal agreement between the Government and the mobile network operators, which only requires guaranteed voice and text to each operator by 2017 to 90% and full coverage to 85% by 2017.

I believe that the Minister may have been referring to the new emergency service contract, which is being delivered by EE. That is exactly the point I was making: that is only one operator. Furthermore, is it not the case that currently only 46% of premises have access to 4G from all mobile network operators and that there remains a substantial 7%, or 1.5 million homes nationwide, that do not have basic voice or text coverage across the three networks?

The roll-out of this vital infrastructure by EE for the benefit of emergency services is obviously welcome and the coverage figures for the UK landmass are impressive. However, that does not constitute universal coverage, as it will be only for the benefit of EE customers, unless some kind of agreement that we are not aware of has been reached. Clearly, although that means that data coverage is reaching all corners of the UK, there is no parity of provision across the mobile network operators and that near-universal coverage, which is so needed, is still far from a reality.

New clause 20, to which we will return later, seeks to do something about that. It would empower the Secretary of State to commission a strategic review of mobile network coverage and to consider measures to enable universal coverage for residences across all telecommunications providers. That would enable the Government to take a second look at ways, including national roaming, genuinely to extend coverage across 3G and 4G to all network providers, because, as the Minister said in Committee on Tuesday, it is no good having full coverage with one provider if the others are not covered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Amendments 2 to 6 are all technical amendments, to enable Ofcom to register dynamic spectrum access service providers and to set out what Ofcom can do where there is a contravention of the restrictions or conditions of registration.

Amendment 2 agreed to.

Amendments made: 3, in clause 8, page 8, line 19, at end insert—

‘( ) The amount of any other penalty specified under this section is to be such amount, not exceeding 10% of the relevant amount of gross revenue, as OFCOM think—

(a) appropriate, and

(b) proportionate to the contravention in respect of which it is imposed.”

This amendment ensures that the penalty based on the relevant amount of gross revenue applies only where the daily default penalty specified under new section 53F(4) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 does not apply.

Amendment 4, in clause 8, page 9, line 21, leave out subsection (1).

This amendment is consequential on amendment 3.

Amendment 5, in clause 8, page 9, line 25, leave out “this section” and insert “section 53F”.

This amendment is consequential on amendments 3 and 4.

Amendment 6, in clause 8, page 12, line 21, after “penalty” insert “specified”.—(Matt Hancock.)

This amendment brings new section 53L(5) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 into line with new section 53F(5) of that Act.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

As the Committee is aware, spectrum which covers the electromagnetic frequency range from 3 kHz to 3,000 GHz is a central ingredient of all forms of wireless technology. The Opposition agree that making better use of spectrum is obviously essential to facilitate the development of the UK’s digital communications infrastructure. This is a national asset and it is important that the Government are constantly reviewing the way in which we can make better use of spectrum, particularly white space, which are used parts of the allocated spectrum.

It is also clearly important for Ofcom to have the power to police—for want of a better word—spectrum and it is important that, for instance, mobile network operators are achieving the coverage set out in their licence. We therefore support the specification of financial penalties if coverage requirements are not satisfied.

However, we would like reassurance on two issues: first, that amendment 2 does not water down the penalties that Ofcom can impose. The explanatory notes are not entirely clear and at present it seems as if, rather than allowing Ofcom to impose a penalty if coverage requirements are not satisfied, it simply must have regard to a potential penalty. We would welcome clarity from the Minister on that point.

My second, wider point is that, in the aftermath of Britain’s exit from the European Union, it is important that we continue to maintain influence in the allocations and regulation of spectrum. As the Minister will know, at present the EU member states harmonise spectrum access conditions EU-wide to ensure an efficient use of radio spectrum. In cases where there are conflicts between different usages of spectrum, they establish policy priorities. This is especially important with new and emerging technology, where the EU will ensure that fair allocation and reallocation of frequencies is harmonised across the European Union. In the aftermath of our exit from the EU, we must continue to communicate effectively with our European partners, as a pan-European strategy will still be in our interest. Will the Minister ensure that he continues to work closely with those partners, particularly as our loss of influence is unlikely to be compensated by our involvement in international forums?

[Matt Hancock]

I am very grateful for the Opposition’s support of the reforms to the way that spectrum is allocated. Spectrum is a finite asset and it is incredibly important that our digital communications, and especially wireless communications, increase so that we make best use of it. It is very good to see cross-party recognition of the importance of that management and that Ofcom play an excellent role in adjudicating on this.

I shall take the hon. Lady’s second specific question on the EU first. Of course we will continue discussions with neighbours about allocations. Ultimately, there are many spectrum frequencies that are dealt with on a global basis—for instance, those that are used in aviation. It is therefore important that we have international discussions, both in the EU and around the rest of the world. I can assure the hon. Lady that those discussions and that collaboration will continue. Indeed, some of it is going on as we speak.

On the hon. Lady’s first point about watering down the penalties, the way in which this is structured does not require a penalty, in case there are reasons not to have one, but allows for penalties. I think that gives Ofcom the necessary wiggle room, should it need it.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 8, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 9

Statement of strategic priorities

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

We are grateful for the Minister’s reassurances in response to our concerns about clause 8. However, given those concerns, we think it is important that the statement of strategic priorities is updated in the aftermath of Britain’s exit from the EU and that consultation should begin right away. The statement of strategic priorities becomes much less clear after Brexit, when the Government will be required to take on significantly more of the burden and have much greater regard for the international element of spectrum access, as we will not be able to rely on European policy.

Clearly, Brexit will significantly alter the policy priorities of the Government in the operation of spectrum. We know that Ofcom is an international thought leader in this area, which may aid the Government. However, we believe that the statement must be amended to avoid any confusion and that that should be done in full consultation with industry.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady is dead right that we have to ensure that the strategic priorities take into account our exit from the European Union. Of course, some parts of spectrum that have very short distances can be set domestically, not least because there is a physical boundary of a minimum 26 miles between the UK and any other country. There are longer frequencies that have a bigger range, where minimising interference is important. Some are used on a global basis, in which case global agreement is required.

The issue has to be taken into account, and we will take on board the hon. Lady’s suggestion about ensuring that we have a statement of Government priorities post-Brexit that is appropriate to the UK outside the EU needing to engage with the EU, as well as with the rest of the world, and that domestic priorities are set where possible.

Digital Economy Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 18th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

I rise to support amendment 83, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West and I, and amendment 56, tabled by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk.

All members of the Committee agree that we must do everything we can to ensure that individuals have access to superfast and, soon, ultrafast broadband. It is not only important but, in an ever more connected age, an absolute necessity for both businesses and residences. That is why we support the Government’s tacit aim to designate broadband effectively as a utility in the same way that water and energy are classed as a must-have in the modern world.

We will speak later about our concerns about the universal service obligation, but broadly we believe that there is coalition of support for a much more ambitious USO. That is why we were pleased to hear that the USO can be amended in secondary legislation later when it becomes outdated. However, I fear that, by the time it is introduced, it will already be becoming seriously outdated and, indeed, by 2020, it may feel like a relic of a bygone age when superfast and ultrafast broadband, even in rural areas, will be readily accessible. That is the subject of our new clause, which we will consider shortly.

On amendment 56, it is absolutely right to specify upload and download in the Bill. As we have seen all too often, businesses and residences see a particular speed advertised with no correlation between what they can download and upload. For someone with a business and working from home, accessing online services and transferring files to them can take a lot of time if the upload speed is not up to scratch. That is an obvious cost to businesses. It is not merely an irritant, but a loss in pounds and pence, and in productivity to the UK economy.

There is no mention in the Bill of upload speeds in the USO. That leads to a broader problem of lack of ambition throughout the Bill. Factors such as distance from the telephone exchange and other considerations such as old household wiring can slow down speed. That is why the USO, although welcome, will seem extraordinarily dated in just half a decade, when the roll-out of the USO will have been completed and there will be little appetite for providers or the Government to return to those hard-to-reach places for some time.

On tackling upload and download speeds, we would have preferred the USO to be under the superfast designations from the beginning. An example of the impact of superfast roll-out on one small business demonstrates this perfectly. Within the first year of having superfast broadband, the business reported a 30% increase in sales. We should be ambitious for our small businesses. Instead, this USO potentially condemns them to distinctly average speeds for a decade.

Amendment 83 is a probing amendment to test the Government’s ambition, which certainly needs to be tested throughout the Bill. It is based on a simple principle. We are at the start of a digital revolution that will transform how we work and how we communicate and interact with one another. Access to water and electricity in the home bookmarked our evolution to a more civilised society, so the essentials of the modern era should be similarly guaranteed. The Bill does that in part for broadband and we strongly believe it should cement further ways to roll out universal or near universal coverage for mobile communication.

We broadly support the changes to clause 2 and the amendments to the electronic communications code. Assisting mobile network operators in some of the challenges facing them is obviously important. That includes access to land and knocking down some of the absurd hurdles they must jump through to make what most people would consider sensible adjustments to infrastructure to update existing technology with little visual impact.

The Bill contains changes to a highly complex piece of legislation, which the industry has been seeking to change for some time. Indeed, the Law Commission commented that the legislation is not one of Parliament’s finest efforts. We recognise that. It clearly is not. However, although simplification and amendments to the code are important, there can be little doubt that mobile network operators will receive a substantial boon. That is why this amendment is so important and it is puzzling that the Government did not include it.

Evidence to the Committee suggested that the Bill could reduce the cost of site rental for mobile network operators, which make up a substantial portion of their costs at 40%. With the operators receiving effectively all they have asked for—no one blames them with such a complex and restrictive code—it is clear that our sights must be set firmly on delivery and the Government should not set their ambitions too low. That is what our probing amendment covers and why it is important that, during the passage of the Bill, we receive at least some commitment to improved targets on mobile network coverage.

We are slightly dismayed that the industry will benefit from such a clearly beneficial piece of legislation and that the Government will impose few or no conditions on them beyond what has already been agreed. We are aware that the £5 billion investment and the statutory target were tied to changes to the code, but we are not convinced that the benefits for consumers are greater than the benefits that are being approved for mobile network operators and we would certainly welcome greater reassurance on that from the Minister.

Let us look quickly at the targets set out in the binding agreement in 2014, signed by the then Culture Secretary, the right hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid). They were: guaranteed voice and text coverage by each operator to 90% of the population and full coverage to 85% by 2017. Currently, only 46% of premises have access to 4G from all mobile network operators and a substantial 7% of the population—1.5 million homes nationwide—do not have basic voice or text coverage across the three networks.

The failed Mobile Infrastructure Project, supposed to reach the final notspots, closed in 2015-16. It had erected only 76 of 100 masts, leaving a substantial number of homes without the prospect of having complete voice and text coverage. Given that 71% of businesses rated mobile network access as “critical” or “very important” to their business we believe that mobile network coverage, as broadband is tacitly designated in this Bill, should also be considered a utility. That is what our probing amendment seeks to test.

Clearly, everyone in the country, if asked, would agree. Businesses that rely on mobile networks, local authorities and individuals that use them to communicate would welcome a right to have mobile network coverage within their place of work or at home. This is extremely achievable but the Opposition are concerned that institutional defensiveness from the major network operators is getting in the way of full or near universal coverage for consumers. More than 99% of residents in the UK have access to 2G or 3G of some kind and 90% have access to 4G of one kind. However, for all operators, the figure drops to just 46%.

The infrastructure is in place and it understandably infuriates people working in an office or at home when their colleagues can get network coverage and access to data services while they cannot. While we recognise the concerns around commercial incentive, surely it is right that, once the current phase of the roll-out is complete and significant gaps in full coverage across all mobile network providers still remain, we at least reconsider the case for national roaming and national infrastructure, as is commonplace on the continent.

We are a relatively small island and it should not be the case that commercial defensiveness makes the aspiration of near universal coverage far from a reality. That is why we will table another new clause relating to this part of the Bill to test it before the whole House. It will establish a review of the roll-out of mobile network coverage, which is a critical piece of infrastructure for businesses, residents, and emergency services. As yet, due to what appears to be institutional wrangling and commercial defensiveness, this coverage is not being extended to the entire population in a way they would expect.

As we know from evidence given to the Committee last week, currently more than 60% of communications towers globally are held in an entity separate from the networks that use them. The review will have to take another look at greater diversity in mobile infrastructure and national roaming in order to deliver a universal service. In countries such as the United States, the figure for independent infrastructure is more like 90%. In the United Kingdom, as the Committee knows, it is more likely that that infrastructure is erected on an economic case for the network and operated for the benefit of the network that makes the investment. That is fine up to a point, in that it undoubtedly encourages competition among network providers in areas where they can receive a substantial return, but it makes universal network coverage more difficult to achieve when there is 90% of coverage for 4G of some kind, but only 46% for all kinds.

Our review will also look at open data and how, by routinely publishing costs, location of masts, service quality and plans for roll-out, consumers, particularly in rural areas, but also in urban “nearly and notspots” can make better decisions about which network operator to use.

Throughout the Bill, Labour Members will look to the Government to turn the £l billion concession, however welcome, for the mobile industry into something approaching a near universal service for the country. We should be ambitious about the kind of mobile network coverage we can deliver and not shy away from the challenge.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

It is a pleasure to get going on the Bill proper and to respond to the first amendments. It is undoubtedly true that reliable fast broadband is now seen as the norm and not the nice-to-have—that unites the whole Committee. We are committed to ensuring that everyone can enjoy the benefits of decent broadband connectivity. It was in our manifesto and it is one of the core purposes of the Bill.

Amendment 56 seeks to ensure that the guidance around the characteristics of the connection is in the Bill—for instance, that the USO can include both upload and download speeds. I entirely understand the intent and the clause as drafted is sufficiently flexible to allow for that. The statement of intent that the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk referred to, which was shared with the Committee last week, outlines a broad range of factors that need to be considered in designing the USO, including the level of service. That includes not just download and upload speeds, but the appropriateness and level of other parameters such as latency and capacity—and potentially customer service.

Ofcom has been commissioned to provide detailed technical analysis and recommendations to support decision making on the design of the broadband USO. Allowing Ofcom to do that work and ensuring that it is specified in detail is better than putting that on the face of the Bill, because it will allow us precisely to future-proof the design of the USO in the way that the hon. Gentleman demands. The decisions on the scope of the USO, the technical specifications, including download and upload speeds, and any service standards need to be taken in the light of Ofcom’s advice, which is to be provided by the end of this year, before the Bill concludes all its stages.

Amendment 83 seeks to include mobile coverage within the scope of the guidance on the broadband USO. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley made many good points and put them eloquently and powerfully. The position is that the universal service directive, which currently provides the regulatory framework for the broadband USO, is about the provision of a fixed internet connection of an appropriate speed to a fixed location. Depending on who is designated as the universal service provider or providers, and on the specification of the USO, there is scope for the USO connection to be provided using mobile technology. However, the directive does not require the USO to include mobile geographic coverage.

In any event, as the hon. Lady said, through the use of licence conditions we have delivered on a commitment to near universal mobile coverage. I would question, therefore, whether there is a case for a USO for mobile, because of those commitments. The licence obligations to which the hon. Lady correctly referred are part and parcel of a deal that included the reform to the electronic communications code—so everything that she asks for was covered in that deal. It is precisely because the two are linked that they are fair, both to the industry and, more importantly, to consumers. As she said, the mobile network operator roll-out plans provide for £5 billion of investment, as a result of that deal and commitment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

New clause 10 would require the Secretary of State to ensure that there is a completely open procurement process, and an alternative dispute resolution role to arbitrate in instances of disagreement over the designation.

We welcome the Minister’s clarification last Wednesday about the statement of intent in relation to the USO. However, we want to mention—I am sure it will not be the first time in this Committee—how rushed and unsatisfactory the publication of Bill documents has been. Some of the documents that should accompany the Bill are yet to be published. I know from talking to people in the industry that that is their concern as well.

I was pleased to note from the statement of intent that the Minister intends the USO to act as an effective complement to commercial, community and publicly-funded roll-outs of broadband, and that it will not displace any planned roll-out of higher speed broadband. There is an argument that there should be a combination of the USO and Broadband Delivery UK to fulfil the last 5%, given that the work of BDUK is still ongoing.

The industry has raised concerns that a USO could risk distorting the UK’s broadband market and potentially hamper the goal of universally available good quality broadband access, if it is not designed in the right way, with the industry and consumers in mind. I note what the Minister said earlier about Ofcom’s being better situated for future-proofing, and I agree. I will discuss that on clause 1 stand part if that is acceptable, Mr Streeter. It is important that there should be parliamentary scrutiny of Ofcom’s role in the consultation.

The USO should not displace any planned roll-out of higher speed broadband. I mentioned the industry’s concerns that it could distort the UK broadband market. If it is done badly, there is a risk that it will undermine commercial investment, in hard-to-reach areas where industry is able profitably to deliver good quality broadband at competitive prices, or by passing on to existing users any rising costs that come about as a result of the USO.

For example, TechUK has argued that the Government should strictly limit the USO to the most remote areas of the UK. Failure to limit the availability of a USO tightly means there is a risk that commercial investment will be diverted, and that there will be wasteful intervention. It is suggested that urban areas, and any rural areas where there is a prospect of market investment, should be explicitly excluded from the USO. It would be helpful to hear the Minister’s thoughts on that and on how Ofcom will take forward the consultation.

Furthermore, satellite connectivity should be considered in scope for the most remote households. It is already available to virtually all households in the UK, and it can be the most cost-effective route to providing superfast broadband. Essentially, we believe—and I hope that this is the Government’s intention—that the USO should be seen as a safety net to prevent social exclusion, facilitate access to online public services, and encourage social and economic development.

The question is whether we need a more transparent and competitive regime for that to happen. Smaller providers are currently put off, because they do not know whether BT currently has plans for, or is working in, any place at any given time. There are allegations from other players in the industry that when smaller providers move into areas where BT is not investing or working, it swoops in, purely to crowd out the competition.

The Government’s statement of intent cites thinkbroadband estimates that suggest about 4% of premises are unable to receive speeds above 10 megabits per second. That really should be open data available to the public and all service providers. We clearly need to know where the assets are, who can do the work and where the cabinets are. There should be a register that contains all that information and is available to make the market more competitive and efficient.

For the process to be trusted, transparent and fair, all the information should be in the open and part of the procurement process, allowing as many providers as possible to participate to ensure that the playing field is as level as possible. It was therefore also welcome that the Government’s statement of intent included consideration of different types of providers, such as regional providers and smaller ones using innovative technologies.

Clearly, it was less than desirable that the BDUK process ended up with only one contractor. We do not believe that we can lay the blame for that entirely on the design of the contracting process, but we think that much greater care needs to be given in the future to ensuring that a richer diversity of providers is catered for in the process.

We should also ensure that the Government are not effectively blackmailed by providers to protect their market position. The mess-up around the procurement process for the roll-out of the broadband framework in 2012 left BT as the only supplier, after Fujitsu pulled out. That was condemned by the Public Accounts Committee for failing to deliver meaningful competition or value for money.

It is also important that the Government consider different tenders for the different problems we are faced with in the last few per cent. For example, we could have one contractor for the rural areas and another for the inner-city areas, as they obviously present different challenges. We could do with some further clarity from the Minister on that.

The amendment is merely designed to be probing. Does the Minister genuinely envisage that anyone other than BT will implement the universal service obligation? How will the tender process be designed? Given the Government’s commitment to encouraging SMEs and community providers to tender, will the likes of Broadband for the Rural North be considered? If the Minister can provide some clarity on that either now or later in writing, I will not press the new clause to a vote.

[Matt Hancock]

I will try to respond to all the points as briefly as I can, because the hon. Lady in particular raised a huge number of pertinent points. The two Front Bench teams are very much on the same side on this matter, so I want to give her the reassurance I can, but as quickly as I can, given that she asked a huge number of very good questions.

First, amendment 57 is about ensuring that devolved Administrations are consulted. Section 65(4) of the Communications Act 2003 already imposes a requirement to consult with Ofcom and other such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate. Since the broadband USO is an extremely important consumer measure that will benefit all parts of the United Kingdom, I cannot conceive of a situation where the devolved Administrations would not be consulted as plans to introduce a broadband USO are put in place, so I do not think the amendment is necessary. We would expect wide and extensive consultation across a wide cross-section of stakeholders.

We will consult on proposals for secondary legislation once we have considered Ofcom’s report. The second consultation will cover the detail of the USO and provide an opportunity to comment on the design of the USO and how it is implemented. I hope that that takes into account the concerns of the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk.

New clause 10 would require the Secretary of State to ensure that there is an open procurement process for the designation of universal service providers. Again, that is covered under section 66 of the 2003 Act, which enables Ofcom to set out the procedure for designation in regulations and requires that the procedure

“be efficient, objective and transparent; and…not to involve, or to tend to give rise to, any undue discrimination against any person”.

I think that addresses the concerns as directly set out in the new clause.

It was music to my ears to hear a Labour Front Bencher talk about the need for a competitive regime, which clearly puts her at odds with her leadership. I agree in principle that the USO is designed as a safety net. Some people want much greater broadband speeds and connectivity, and it is not unreasonable for people to pay if they want very high connectivity speeds, but we believe there is a public service in having a universal service so that everyone is given the opportunity to have decent connectivity on which to live their lives. As the hon. Lady said, that could involve communicating with the Government, which is increasingly done online, or engaging in communications around healthcare and basic banking, and 10 megabits per second allows for that.

The hon. Lady mentioned satellite technology. Satellite is in scope—in fact, all technologies are in scope. The legislation is purposely designed to be technology blind. What people care about is connectivity. The technology is for the implementation, the policy makers and the engineers. Citizens care about how good, reliable and quick their connectivity is.

The hon. Lady made one error and I want to bring her up to speed. It is not true that there is just one contract in BDUK. Its open competitions have now been won by BT, Gigaclear, Call Flow Solutions, Airband, UK Broadband and Cotswolds Broadband. There has been progress since the Public Accounts Committee report that she mentioned and a whole plethora of providers have now successfully bid into the BDUK contracts.

[Louise Haigh]

I am aware that in phase 2 other providers have been successful in tendering, but in phase 1, as the Minister is well aware, there were problems and Fujitsu pulled out, leaving BT as the only contractor. That is why our new clause goes further than the law currently enables Ofcom to go, by ensuring the appointment of a body to undertake an alternative dispute resolution role, so that we can learn the lessons from BDUK. I appreciate that the Minister may not be able to commit to that today, but will he at least take it away and consider it for the USO?

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Exactly, absolutely right. We are seeing the long-feared Labour-SNP alliance in action. The hon. Gentleman is right that G.fast is a useful technology but it is not a full fibre technology and is, by physics, distance-constrained, although BT continues to do important work on driving as much delivery out of copper as possible.

There is one other point that it is important for the Committee to consider: there was a simultaneous call from the Opposition for the statement of intent to be included in the Bill and for there to be flexibility in the speed of the USO. These two things are inconsistent; it takes time to change primary legislation. It is incredibly important that we can revise the USO potentially—and hopefully—upwards. It is wrong to set a USO speed now for several years hence. I think we agree on that. We should not, therefore, put the speed on the face of the Bill.

The Scottish Government have said they want 30 megabits per second by 2021. We, of course, want the USO before then and we want the speed to reflect the reality of the time. Demands are increasing very quickly, so I would not want to put a figure on it for five years hence, as the Scottish Government have done. That is a mistake and it is far better to do it as we are planning in this Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister is slightly misinterpreting what I said, which is particularly cruel given that I have only been a week in the job. I did not say G.fast was equivalent to fibre. I said that BT would be pushing it out to 60% to 70% and that was why we need much more ambitious targets from the Government on fibre for that final third, in order to deliver coverage for the entire UK.

With regard to the statement of intent, I have said several times that we support its being in secondary legislation, but we want to see elements of it, including the design of the USO, the procurement process and review, to be in the Bill, to avoid being asked to vote blindly on details we do not yet have.

[Matt Hancock]

I am delighted to have that clarification. I am also glad that the hon. Lady welcomed the fact that Ofcom is doing the consultation, which is necessary before we can put those details in place. The way the provisions are structured in the Bill is the right way to proceed.

In ensuring that we get the best possible broadband connectivity, we must make sure that we have both a vision of the future with high-speed and superfast—and then ultrafast—connectivity, and flexibility to get there in the most cost-efficient way possible. That unites the Committee in purpose, and the Bill as it stands provides for it.

Finally, following the mention of the Labour Government by the Opposition, I will not rise to any partisan points other than to note that in 2003, the then Labour Government legislated to set a USO. They set the USO in stone in legislation and instead of including a review clause, they set it at 28 kilobits per second. Let that be a lesson to anyone who wants to put more on the face of the Bill. It is far better to ensure that we can constantly keep pace with technology, as the Bill does.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

To channel the Prime Minister, fibre means fibre. If hon. Members want to know what fibre means, it means fibre.

On the point about measuring BT and BDUK on take-up not access, both BT and BDUK are measured on take-up as well as access. Both are important. In fact, the contracts have take-up embedded in them, because the clawback from higher take-up allows money to be spent on further roll-out. The contracts that are being rolled out at the moment are from that clawback. The hon. Lady is therefore absolutely right that both take-up and access are important, and in the county-by-county figures from BDUK we have both take-up and access.

I also strongly agree with the hon. Lady on advertising. The Advertising Standards Authority has consulted for some time on descriptions of both “up to” speeds and pricing arrangements, both of which can be wholly misleading. I very much hope that the ASA will come out with new rules shortly—it has been working on that for some time. However, advertising is policed on a non-statutory basis and I think it would be a significant step for us to legislate on that matter because we do not want political interference in the rules around advertising. That is a step that I do not want to take. I do want the ASA to come to its conclusions as soon as possible. I hope that that answers all the questions that were asked on that point.

[Louise Haigh]

I appreciate that the Minister may not want to pre-empt the Ofcom consultation, but will there be any parliamentary scrutiny of the proposals that Ofcom will bring forward, or will we leave it to Ofcom and accept what it brings forward in terms of design, cost threshold and everything else we have debated this morning?

[Matt Hancock]

Of course there will be parliamentary scrutiny, because the Bill provides for the USO details to be put in place via secondary legislation. There will be scrutiny then and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty pointed out, there will also be the opportunity for Select Committees to scrutinise in their usual way. I hope that without reading the rest of my speech, which is all about how important and wonderful broadband is, the Committee will accept what I have said as a full response.

[Matt Hancock]

In short, although the precise design is subject to the Ofcom consultation, my view is that the potential in the Bill for the USO is more ambitious than the Scottish Government’s, because theirs is to be delivered later and has already specified a speed. Instead, we have proposals coming in sooner and with uprating built in from the start.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2

General conditions: switching communications provider

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

The Opposition are happy to support the clause. As we know, there are currently extremely low levels of switching in the market, with 5.9 million mobile users having never switched owing to concerns with the process and 2.5 million people saying they have experienced a major difficulty such as the amount of time it took or loss of their number. Every year, more than a million people are either double-billed or lose service in attempts to switch.

I understand that Ofcom has been considering how to make switching work for over eight years, and I am informed that the decision on switching has been delayed because of previous appeals and the current appeal regime, which we will come on to later in the Bill.

The powers for Ofcom to introduce gainer provider-led switching are welcomed by Opposition Members, as the figures clearly show there is little appetite to switch mobile provider at present, despite the clear lack of trust in mobile service providers themselves. In the last year, almost half of consumers have not switched providers; of those who have switched, 46% of them did so more than a year ago.

As Members are aware, at the moment switching providers is beyond arduous. Individuals have to contact their own provider and then the provider they wish to switch to. They have to terminate their old contract and then activate their new contract. This creates additional costs, time and hassle, and means that consumers are not able to compare all the deals available to them easily.

These proposals are welcome, but do the Government intend gainer provider-led switching to cover both mobiles and bundles? Clearly, many mobile networks also operate in other areas, such as internet and television, so would it not make it even easier for consumers if they could switch all at once if a better offer was provided? We look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments on that.

It would also be helpful if the Minister could put on the record what discussions he has had with Ofcom and mobile providers about the range and depth of information that will be available. Clearly, the lack of open data in this market holds back switching, but as we discussed earlier it also holds back investment and competition. It is very welcome to hear that BT has offered that information, but we would be grateful to hear exactly what data it is making available. Data on internet availability—such as costs, product offerings, location of cabinets and masts, access method, service quality, service faults, and planned network upgrade and dates—would all be enormously beneficial if they were published as open data.

That would be a considerable step towards creating a more effective market. It would not only help with switching but would enable an operator, community group or local authority to decide whether to build a new network for an area if there were no other plans to do so.

Nevertheless, these measures are very welcome and we on the Labour Benches are pleased to support them.

[Matt Hancock]

Consumers should be able to benefit from choice and competition in the UK communications markets, and I am very grateful for the cross-party support for these measures.

The central case is that changing suppliers should be quick and easy, and can benefit all. However, the reality is that no matter how attractive a deal may look, or how dissatisfied a customer may be with their current service, the rigmarole or the perceived rigmarole involved in changing provider deters switching. This clause makes it explicit that Ofcom has powers to facilitate easier switching in the communications sector.

It will be for Ofcom to consult on and define which communication services will be subject to switching processes. Ofcom is consulting on triple play—so fixed line, broadband and pay TV switching—with a view to simplifying the processes to switch multiple services as well. The clause will help to cement Ofcom’s power and will put in place processes to instil in consumers the confidence to shop around. That is the purpose of the clause.

There are ongoing discussions with Ofcom about the range and depth of information that is provided. Of course, the measure complements the information powers given to Ofcom in part 6 of the Bill, which we will come on to. So, once consumers have better information to hand about the services on offer, they can then switch to the service that is most suitable for them with confidence and the minimum of fuss.

Ofcom has existing powers to set conditions on electronic communication service providers, and this clause makes it explicit that Ofcom may set general conditions to facilitate switching. Such conditions could require providers to comply with defined processes, such as gaining provider-led switching. This approach would mean that consumers would no longer need to contact their existing provider when they want to move, and of course the gaining provider has the incentive to make these things as easy as possible.

I hope that all these things will help to boost switching and therefore make this market more competitive.

I beg to move that the clause stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3

Automatic compensation for failure to meet performance standards

Digital Economy Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Hancock]

Q Yes. Given that there is a big problem that is hard to tackle and complicated, I was just trying to get a feel for how much of the problem you think, with your expertise and the Bill, we can fix.

David Austin: We can fix a great deal of the problem. We cannot fix everything. The Bill is not a panacea but it can achieve a great deal, and we believe we can achieve a great deal working as the regulator for stages 1 to 3.

[Louise Haigh]

Q My question follows on neatly from that. While I am sure that the regulation will tackle those top 50 sites, it obviously comes nowhere near tackling the problems that Mr Wardle outlined, and the crimes, such as grooming, that can flow from those problems. There was a lot of discussion on Second Reading about peer-to-peer and social media sites that you have called “ancillary”. No regulation in the world is going to stop that. Surely, the most important way to tackle that is compulsory sex education at school.

Alan Wardle: Yes. In terms of online safety, a whole range of things are needed and a whole lot of players. This will help the problem. We would agree and want to work with BBFC about a proportionality test and identifying where the biggest risks are to children, and for that to be developing. That is not the only solution.

Yes, we believe that statutory personal, social and health education and sexual relationships education is an important part of that. Giving parents the skills and understanding of how to keep their children safe is also really important. But there is a role for industry. Any time I have a conversation with an MP or parliamentarian about this and they have a child in their lives—whether their own, or nieces or nephews—we quickly come to the point that it is a bit of a nightmare. They say, “We try our best to keep our children safe but there is so much, we don’t know who they are speaking to” and all the rest of it.

How do we ensure that when children are online they are as safe as they are when offline? Of course, things happen in the real world as well and no solution is going to be perfect. Just as, in terms of content, we would not let a seven-year-old walk into the multiplex and say, “Here is ‘Finding Nemo’ over here and here is hard core porn—off you go.”

We need to build those protections in online so we know what children are seeing and to whom they speaking and also skilling up children themselves through school and helping parents. But we believe the industry has an important part to play in Government, in terms of regulating and ensuring that spaces where children are online are as safe as they can be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

Q As you say, Mr Shah, for Government data sharing to work requires public trust, and digital government and the use of your statistics absolutely requires trust that the Government will handle data with due purpose and cause.

Hetan Shah: Another thing is that the UK Statistics Authority is directly accountable to Parliament, not the Government. That actually makes the statistics and research strand more accountable compared with other parts of the Bill. I remind you of that, which is very important.

[Matt Hancock]

Q I would be interested if you could explain and put on the record some of the consequences you see of having this Bill and the underlying secondary legislation on the statute book. What impact will that have on the areas in which you are experts?

Professor Sir Charles Bean: The key thing is that it greatly improves the gateways that enable the Office for National Statistics to use administrative data—tax data and the like—in the construction of official economic statistics. We are well off the pace compared with many other countries. Scandinavian countries, Canada, the Irish and the Dutch make very heavy reliance on administrative data and only use surveys to fill in the gaps. Here, the Office for National Statistics is essentially an organisation that turns the handle, sending out 1.5 million paper forms a year and processing those. Essentially, you are acquiring the same information again that you have already got in some other part of the public sector, where the information is being collected for other purposes.

The key gains here I see as twofold. First, because you access something close to the universe of the sample population rather than just a subset, which would normally be the case with a survey, you potentially get more accurate information. It is potentially also more timely, which for economic policy purposes is important.

The other side of the coin is that by enabling you to cut back on the number of surveys you do, there is a cost gain, which I should say would probably not mainly be a gain to the ONS, because they have to do the processing of the administrative data, but a gain to the businesses and households who are currently spending time filling in forms that they would not need to do if more use was made of administrative data.

Digital Economy Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Matt Hancock]

Q And in terms of the data measures to tackle fraud?

Jeni Tennison: I have not looked at the detail of the individual measures for those kinds of benefits.

[Louise Haigh]

Q Is the point not that these benefits cannot be achieved unless the risks are tackled head-on, which is exactly what happened with the care.data issue in the last Parliament? That health data could not be shared because the public did not trust the Government or insurers with that risk. I worked in insurance at the time and that came as quite a blow. Is the point not that the Government need to take on the issues around transparency and trust in this Committee? Mike, on your point about data access, do you think Government are currently geared up to allow that, rather than bulk data sharing?

Mike Bracken: “Government” is a very broad organisation. There are promising moves around registers of data and around reinstating an address register. I do not know quite where that is now. There was a promising move but that now seems to be a little on the backburner—I am not sure. The point is that that question needs to be asked to 20-plus Government Departments and more than 300 agencies and non-departmental public bodies, each of which has a different answer. It is hard to summarise where “government” is at any one point without any open standards between those and without any clear framework under which Government data are already being shared.

Voter Registration

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an incredibly important question. The eligibility requirements were debated extensively in this House. After someone applies to register online, the application is not taken at face value but is checked against Government data to make sure that that person meets the eligibility rules set by this House. That is one reason why there needs to be time between the deadline and polling day—to make sure that exactly the concerns that my hon. Friend raises are met.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

The Minister keeps saying that yesterday’s significantly higher numbers were unprecedented. There were 525,000 applications yesterday and 485,000 on deadline day in 2015. Why then was the system not prepared and able to cope, and is it not now time for automatic registration?

[Matthew Hancock]

The spike was much bigger than the hon. Lady’s figures, which are accurate for the whole day, I suggest, because there was an intense spike after 9 pm. The question for the system is how many people are trying to apply at once, and that figure was three times higher than in the peak before the 2015 general election.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 27th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was listening, but I said that much information is in the public domain, and it is in the public interest that it is public, thanks to the Freedom of Information Act. That is my position. I look forward to hearing what the commission has to say about the operational working of the Act to ensure that it is working in the way Parliament intended.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

It is confusing to hear the Minister claim to be such a fan of transparency, given that the Cabinet Office has set up a commission designed to weaken FOI—an ex-coalition Minister has described that as a “rigged jury”—botched the release of Cabinet papers, watered down consultation rules, and is now being investigated by the Information Commissioner for withholding thousands of items of spending data. If sunlight really is the best disinfectant, why has the Minister now abolished every single senior civil service post with responsibility for transparency?

[Matthew Hancock]

As a matter of fact, we are the most transparent Government ever. What is more, the hon. Lady will be delighted to know that only this morning the Cabinet Office published further spending information to ensure that we keep that mantle.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Louise Haigh and Matt Hancock

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Matthew Hancock]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that compatibility and interoperability must be at the heart of everything we do. They are at the heart of the digital standards that we require to be adhered to right across Whitehall. For a citizen, it does not matter what the acronym is of the organisation that they are trying to deal with, they just want their Government service delivered quickly and easily.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) is absolutely right that the levels of turnover in the Cabinet Office and the GDS are unacceptably high, and over the summer we saw the exodus of senior leadership amid concerns that the future of the service will be downgraded from a delivery service to a policy unit. We also note that businesses are losing on average 33 working days a year because of outdated Government digital services. Will the Minister reassure the House today that his Department is resisting cuts in the comprehensive spending review, as those cuts will seriously damage the prospect of thousands of businesses across the country?

[Matthew Hancock]

I can repeat the facts that I gave the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) before the hon. Lady read out her question. The turnover in the GDS is lower than in the rest of the Cabinet Office. Furthermore, we put more money into digital services in the Budget. Perhaps she should look into the facts before asking questions.