Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts

Monday 10th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, as to where the heart of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, lies on fracking. Her heart on this subject is a little closer to that of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, but she is putting on a very brave front, because she has to, and says she supports fracking. We have been at hydraulic fracking in this country for more than 50 years. As so many of your Lordships have said, this is a highly regulated industry and Britain is a world leader in it. It is totally inappropriate to compare our standards and form of regulation with some of the scare stories from America. However, it is about presentation and, at the moment, the industry and the Government are losing the presentation battle, although that might be beginning to change. As my noble friend Lord Deben will remember only too well, it is fine to say, “I wish the Government would improve their PR”. It is difficult to do that in practice because if it is a good news story our press do not want to know about it. All they want to know about are the bad news stories.

I made my comment about the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, because these amendments will make the whole process much more difficult and time-consuming. For example, new subsection (1)(a) in Amendment 113G requires all sites to,

“carry out an Environmental Impact Assessment”.

We know that environmental impact assessments are hugely important. They cover a range of other industries. However, European standards have been agreed on for fracking. Within those standards are certain exemptions for the small fields and for some experimental wells, but there are also restrictions. It is not a total blanket; it is a limited exemption. Why does the Labour Party want to gold plate what is already in existence and covers the whole of Europe?

When I was on Sub-Committee B and we inquired into energy, what came over abundantly clearly was that the rest of Europe—which has quite a lot of shale gas, too, particularly Poland—is looking to Britain for a lead. When Britain does it, the rest of Europe will get on and do it. We in Europe can all benefit from that. If we do not take the lead, the others will not do it by themselves. That is why I support all those who have said that we must get on with it, regulate it and make transparent who is regulating what and why, so that we can give the maximum amount of reassurance to the public.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, in taking part in the debate, my only interest is that we should make a judgment based on supported evidence, rather than on allegations. If nothing else, the amendment is important because there is a battle of ideas on fracking that we need to win. Noble Lords have said that we are not currently doing so well on public opinion. Unfortunately, the scare stories are believed. There has been an important event since we debated this in Committee: the publication of The Economic Impact on UK Energy Policy of Shale Gas and Oil. It is a very important report. No one has questioned its integrity or the evidence it contains. I stress that point again and again.

Like many others, I looked at Amendment 113G. I was pleased to hear my noble friend Lady Worthington say that she was not opposed to fracking. I suppose the amendment is a bit like the curate’s egg: it is good in parts. It is probably better than the average curate’s egg because most of the parts are good. I support an environmental impact assessment—I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that that is something that needs to be done. I support independent inspections of the integrity of wells used; I am pretty sure the fracking companies would as well. They are also prepared publicly to disclose the chemicals used for the extraction process. Again, read the report: they are in there. For the most part they are used in tiny amounts, and for the most part there is no problem with them whatever.

It is true that some practices that went on in the States were not helpful to the process of fracking. That is not to say that everything that happened in the States was bad, because it was not—there are plenty of good examples from there. We should not forget that fracking substantially reduced emissions in the States. It did and has created jobs and it has brought industry back to the States. We should not forget that important aspect.

[Lord Wigley]

The noble Lord quotes the economic impact report, which I have with me. Paragraph 269 says that the Government,

“must also explicitly address the safety issues”.

The committee that produced that report was clearly not entirely happy on that count.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

Of course, we have to address the safety issues. I am not seriously saying that anybody in the Chamber is recommending that we embark on a process of mining or whatever activity without addressing safety issues. I listened carefully both to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and to his companion sitting next to him, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones. They both expressed a deep-rooted opposition to fracking, which frankly puzzles me. If we do not have fracking we will still be dependent on LNG, on which I think about 27% of our energy is based. I do not understand the basis of their opposition. I sometimes do not understand the green analysis of a number of issues because it is not always evidence-based. I could say the same about GM foods, but that is another issue.

To return to this important subject, I, too, want to hear what the Minister has to say. I heard it once in Committee, but it is worthy of repetition. I listened to and understand the concerns of my noble friend Lady Farrington, but I direct her to the report. It said that when people talk about earthquakes, it might be better if we talk about tremors. There was one in Wigan in Greater Manchester, which was of a 1.5 magnitude. It was about the same as a heavy lorry passing.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I thought it was a bomb, living as we do half way between both the aerospace centres, with planes going over all the time. The noble Lord was not in my bedroom.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

That is an indisputable fact and I am glad it has been affirmed. I may not have been there when the earth moved for the noble Baroness, but I am going by the evidence of the recorded seismic shock. I again appeal to the House: that is what we must do if we want to win the battle of ideas. It is a really important one.

Of course we need to get the regulation right, but it needs to be proportionate and evidence-based. We have the capacity to do that. If we do not, we will see what has happened in Balcombe and in various other parts of the country. Instead of fracking being seen as a perfectly valid contribution to energy security, the cost of energy and the capacity to create a significant number of jobs, those who are opposed to it will succeed in creating the view that it is something to be feared. I do not believe that that is the case. Noble Lords do not need to look just at the evidence of the report. Durham University, in a totally independent survey, addressed the issues in a serious way. The industry is not financing it; it is totally independent research.

I welcome the amendments because it is important that the House debates this issue and makes clear what we expect from regulation. We and the public expect a safe, regulated, transparent and accountable process. I look forward to the Minister addressing those concerns.

[Lord Donoughue (Lab)]

My Lords, these amendments are useful as probes, as my noble friend Lord Lipsey said. They also have important political and economic implications for the whole process of fracking. I will not explore the political side at this hour; I will point out on another occasion how very unproductive it is for the Labour Party to appear—I stress “appear”—to oppose shale fracking by artificial regulatory delay when shale offers the hope of 70,000 new jobs, billions of pounds of investment in the regions, lower energy prices, keeping our energy-intensive industries alive and here, and providing energy security. That seems to me to offer hope, which is still to be fully proved, to millions of ordinary British people. I do not think that Balcombe necessarily represents the majority of them. Public confidence is a factor that is repeatedly raised. In the polls, 75% of the public either support or, to a greater extent, do not oppose fracking.

Leaving the politics reluctantly on one side, I shall focus on the amendments. I support my noble friend Lord Hollick in his argument that all these environmental concerns are apparently covered by existing regulations. They need to be properly implemented, which I fully support. But if there is some need for further gold-plating—my noble friends Lord Hollick and Lord Lipsey mentioned that possibility—that can be pursued later. We should not use the very mixed regulatory experience of the United States to go into this bureaucratic jungle to delay fracking for ever. If one reads some of the official reports that have investigated it—I particularly call attention to that of the Geological Society—one will see that these matters put into perspective the statement that our British regulatory regimes are the best in the world and that we can rely on them. However, we cannot always rely on local authorities to have the resources to pursue them, which is a factor that should be pursued further.

I direct my next point especially to my Front Bench. It has not been explained to me in prior discussions why on earth we need a vote today. These excellent probing amendments explore the matters fully but I do not see the need for a vote. This jungle of bureaucratic regulations, including the existing ones, which I accept have already given excuses for the delay in extracting these precious reserves, mean that we have only one well today. We can express our views and Members have taken part in an impressive debate on all aspects. We can explore the matter but such a vote from this side—I am speaking very much as a lifelong Labour man—will send the wrong message. It will send the message that Labour wants to delay the great shale gas contribution to our economy. Conveying that message, which is hostile to job creation, lower energy prices and energy security, could push me, with my noble friend Lord Lipsey and perhaps others, into the very unfamiliar territory of the government Lobby. I trust that we will not get to that point.

The Government should agree tonight to explore further how genuine concerns about fracking can be allayed. I stress again that our concerns are genuine and that I am not referring to fictional scaremongering. However, we need to bear in mind that the Green Party’s concerns will never be allayed. I think that we are all grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for confirming that tonight. They will never be allayed because, in reality, however disguised, the Greens want to stop shale gas because it threatens their beloved windmills. With great reluctance, I shall vote against this amendment if, unfortunately, it is pressed to a vote.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I am grateful for the correction, and I think I mentioned that issue in my response on independent well operators. Perhaps I may clarify the position as regards the concerns of the noble Baroness. The Health and Safety Executive scrutinises well design and monitors progress to ensure that the operator is managing risk effectively, and will continue to do so throughout the life cycle of the well. An independent well examiner will also review its design and construction. To date, onshore operators have used separate companies to provide this service; they have not delivered in-house.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

As I understand it, seismic monitoring is done on a continuous basis. While I cannot remember the exact figures, I think that if a tremor registers 0.5, the operation is stopped. That is a very low-level seismic shock and reflects a high level of safety precaution. Can the Minister confirm that?

[Baroness Verma]

I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Young. He is absolutely right to point out that exploration is immediately stopped once the level of 0.5 is reached. However, I will clarify the point and write to him, and put a copy of the letter in the Library.

With these reassurances, I hope that I have been able to convince the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.