Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Lord Winston Excerpts

Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I just wonder what he feels a GP should do in the circumstance in which he does not approve of assisted dying? Does the noble Lord feel that that is a problem?

[Lord Rook (Lab)]

With the greatest respect, that is not the conversation I am trying to have here. The conversation is about the necessity that someone who is going through the process has continuity of care and a relationship with that GP. We are suggesting that someone who is after a state-assisted end-of-life process should have the opportunity to see that GP on a number of occasions so that their judgment can be made in the context of continuity of care, not in one appointment.

To pick up the noble Lord’s questions, this amendment would not block access. It would not frustrate autonomy. It would simply ensure that assisted dying does not begin from nowhere. It grounds a grave decision in a minimal but essential relationship with the health service that is charged with safeguarding the person in question. Supporting autonomy requires a supportive context. It requires knowing whether a request reflects a settled conviction, a moment of despair, untreated depression or pressure that the patient feels unable to articulate. These things cannot be reliably assessed in isolation. Above all, care is relational. If Parliament is to contemplate legislation under which the state may participate in deliberately ending life, the very least we must insist on is that such decisions take place within the context of real and primary medical relationships, not on the periphery of the system.

This amendment would strengthen residency safeguards, improve the evidential foundation for clinicians, reduce the risk of doctor shopping and respect the seriousness of what the Bill proposes by rooting it in genuine and consistent care. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

Yes, I entirely agree. That is the basis of what I am saying. I think it would be admirable if anyone who was seeking assisted dying in fact had the opportunity to be known by the local GP. All I am saying is that, yes, I am lucky, but I do not actually know my GPs. Of course, I accept what the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, says: there are many people who never meet their GPs and never have access. That is why it seems to me that what is required cannot be achieved. That is all I am saying.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, should we not hear from the noble Lords who have tabled the amendments before we—

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)]

My Lords, can we follow the normal courtesies of the House, please? As the noble Baroness was not here at the beginning of this group of amendments, she cannot participate on this group of amendments. I urge noble Lords to take note of where we were and move forward.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, in fact destroys her own argument, because access to GPs, unfortunately, is still a major problem. In that respect, I greatly congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Gerada, who gave a fantastic maiden speech yesterday explaining the role of the GP and the ideal situation. The fact is, in this Chamber, there will be a number of people who, quite rightly, absolutely deplore or disagree with assisted dying, as they have every right to do.

It is also true that, in my practice many years ago, I saw patients who had requested termination of pregnancy—certainly, in more than one case. However, there is one particular patient who I remember very clearly. Several years after the Abortion Act had been agreed to and had started, I saw a patient who came into the hospital having been refused referral by a GP because he disapproved, as he was entitled to do, of abortion. She did not get a further referral. She went to an illegal practitioner in the East End of London and ended up with infection of the uterus and was in bed for several weeks with septicaemia. She did not die, but her laparotomy required her uterus, tubes and most of her pelvis to be removed. That is the risk. It is always going to be the case that individual GPs have the absolute right to decide how they might handle a particular difficult ethical issue. Of course, the problem here is that these vary from patient to patient; we have to understand that, and simply relying on the GP in this way seems to me to be deeply flawed.

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

My Lords, it is very regrettable that the noble Lord had a patient in an abortion situation. We are not, in this group, discussing the doctor’s wishes or otherwise and his views about abortion. I ask the Minister, because I can hear mutterings here, what provision says that you cannot intervene in a debate where you have not been present, perhaps, at the very first moment of the debate? What is the section in the Companion that provides for that?

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[Lord Winston (Lab)]

Forgive me. What the noble Lord is saying is very interesting, but could he possibly keep to the amendment? The amendments are quite tricky and really do need discussion.

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[Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak for just a couple of seconds as I am very mindful of time. I support Amendments 24 and 458 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson. We have had very little debate about the issue of pregnancy. I am quite shocked by that, given that there are administrations around the world with many years of experience, such as Oregon, which had similar legislation in 1997, and Belgium, which had it in 2002. They considered the issue of pregnancy during these very delicate discussions on assisted dying.

I am somewhat disappointed and concerned that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has not addressed this, and I really hope that this can be addressed on Report. There is a world of difference between a very early pregnancy and a baby close to full term, which is reflected in our Abortion Act. May I therefore give the noble and learned Lord some advice? When this does come back on Report, the issue of pregnancy should be addressed, as it has been in other jurisdictions.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, as Amendment 24 has been tabled and pregnancy has been spoken about, I now feel that I ought to just make one point very quickly. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, quite rightly presented a lot of statistics about cancer, but that she did not address the issue of cancers of the pregnancy itself. That is a serious issue. Choriocarcinoma, for example, is a fatal disease; it is rapidly metastatic, can cause issues all over the body and is not easily treatable. It could easily be that somebody who was pregnant with that, who would test pregnant with that condition, would be eligible. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to consider not pressing her amendment and to reconsider the wording of it, because I do not think that it would be an acceptable amendment later on. Both early in pregnancy and in late pregnancy, this would be a real risk.

[Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)]

I will just come back on that, if I may. I would also say that the wording in the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is insufficient, because it is a far more complex issue than that. As I said, there is a world of difference between a very early embryo in the first few weeks and a close to full-term pregnancy. I certainly hope that this Committee would agree that point.

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[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for this thoughtful and considered debate. As ever in your Lordships’ Chamber, the debate did not go quite the way I was expecting. This has been quite a catch-all group trying to cover a number of very complicated issues. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for summing up. I will not seek to sum up all the contributions, but I will pick up a few points.

The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked me about pregnancy. There is very little data on the numbers and one of the challenges is that recording and reporting are very different in different jurisdictions. In somewhere such as Oregon, where the data is destroyed a year after death, it is hard to follow up and interrogate the information. Many jurisdictions around the world do not require a pregnancy test, but that puts a lot more pressure on doctors as it is then up to them to assume or guess whether or not a woman is pregnant. Whether she is showing or not, do they accept the request for assisted dying? It is really worrying for those doctors, because if it is later found out that the woman was pregnant in jurisdictions where there is a penalty for the doctors, they might find themselves less likely to want to carry out an assisted death.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

Does the noble Baroness not accept that there are certain cancers that will give a positive pregnancy test and also be killing the patient, in a very serious condition?

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

I thank the noble Lord; I will cover that later in my summing up, if that is okay, but I will come to back it. What happens in other jurisdictions makes it really difficult for doctors, which means that we need clarity in this Bill about what would happen in those situations.

Many noble Lords discussed the vulnerability of prisoners. This debate has shown that it is not that simple. I have visited many prisons and young offender institutions over the years and they are all very different places. I have met many people who have hope and some who do not. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, articulated my thoughts on the circumstances in which prisoners find themselves very well.

I debated long and hard whether to use this example. The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, talked about moral hazard. There is the case in Australia of Daniel Hume, who was six years into a 30-year sentence for paedophilia. He had a terminal condition and exercised his right to die. His daughter said that she and other victims felt robbed by him being able to access assisted dying. This highlights the complexity of the issues we are dealing with. I hope I am a kind person—I believe in rehabilitation for prisoners—but these are not easy things that we are trying to sort out or get to the bottom of. I have very complicated views on all these issues, as I know many noble Lords do. It is absolutely something that we have to come back to.

I was probably expecting the answer from the Minister on Articles 8 and 14. I am not convinced that we have Article 2 quite right. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Winston, for his intervention and I would be very happy to take his advice. I tried to keep my opening speech very close to 10 minutes, rather than the 15 minutes I am allowed, so there are lots of areas I was unable to discuss in my opening speech. I accept what the noble Lord said—he has far more experience of pregnancy than I do—but that just throws another complication into the mix in respect of what we are trying to sort out. I will welcome his advice on rewording my amendments, should I choose to come back with them.

I would like to thank the noble and learned Lord, as well as the honourable Member for Batley and Spen, who I am meeting next week to discuss some of my amendments. I hope that we can get a bit more clarity in that meeting on the amendments we are discussing. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Mackinlay, for his intervention. I think there is a line—I am sorry, I am jumping back to pregnancy—when it comes to what we do and at what point we do it. I believe that the noble and learned Lord and I have agreed to disagree on the safeguards in the Bill.

I would like to make a correction. I am serious about my amendments, although I could have worded them better. I did not intend for men to have a pregnancy test, and I did not intend to get into a debate about age and the pregnancy test. The reason why I tabled the amendment on a pregnancy test was to allow women to understand all the implications of what they are getting into and to be able to make a choice. They may or may not choose to do something differently with that information.

I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate this afternoon. With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.