Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 11th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I am honoured to follow that excellent and very moving maiden speech by the noble Lord, Lord Walney. He talked of Walney Island, and I know that area. What he did not mention was that it has an airport built at right angles to the prevailing wind and about as long as this Chamber, so if any noble Lords are thinking of visiting there, they will have a very fun arrival if they go by air.

I have known John, the noble Lord, Lord Walney, for more than 10 years. He is a highly principled man, and I was particularly impressed, first, by his confrontation of anti-Semitism within the Labour Party, which he drove through with great vigour; and secondly by his passionate support for an issue very close to my heart and those of his ex-constituents, which noble Lords heard him mention—the UK’s independent deterrent and nuclear submarines. Neither issue made him popular with the last leader of the Labour Party, but he refused to compromise his beliefs. Rather like his namesake in the 17th century, he was martyred, although I doubt that—unlike his predecessor—he will be beatified by the Pope. The noble Lord, Lord Walney, will be of great value to this House. We already got that from what he said, and I look forward very much to working with him.

The Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament, of which I am currently a member, welcomes this Bill. Agents provide invaluable information and play a vital role in identifying and disrupting terrorist plots. Basically, they save the lives of our people. However, can the Minister assure the House that, in putting the existing powers on a statutory basis—which needs to be done because of the legal shenanigans going on at the moment—the Bill does not extend them in any way at all? It is essential that these powers are properly circumscribed and used only where necessary: they have to be proportionate. They should be compatible with the Human Rights Act—let us face it, we are all responsible for ensuring that—and subject to proper oversight.

The Minister will be aware that the Intelligence and Security Committee proposed an amendment to the Bill in the other place relating to parliamentary oversight. I have lost sight of where that has gone; perhaps the Minister will let us know where that proposal stands. The committee clearly knows the agencies very well, but it has also taken evidence—very sensitive evidence—from the police in a number of its inquiries, and from that knowledge would support their use of these powers. I would, however, need convincing that a number of the other authorities really do need these powers.

The Intelligence and Security Committee strongly supports the Government’s decision not to place limits on criminal conduct in the Bill itself. My own operational experience would reinforce that because of the risks it would place on our agents. Clearly, that means even greater emphasis on the need for robust safeguards. I can offer reassurance to the House that the Intelligence and Security Committee has had comprehensive briefings on how these authorisations are used, and we are reassured and satisfied that they are used appropriately by MI5. Will the Minister say, however, what percentage of criminal conduct authorisations—they have been mentioned already—the Investigatory Powers Commissioner will actually examine?

I reiterate that I strongly support this Bill, subject to the caveats I touched on. I have not had time to go into other areas, such as the use of children, but I hope that these things will be investigated in Committee. There is no doubt that these agents save lives and are at great risk themselves. We must be careful not to pass legislation that, with amendments, leads to agents being killed.

Hong Kong British National (Overseas) Visa

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Wednesday 29th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The BNO visa is a very generous offer indeed to BNO citizens, which is proportionate to the unique situation that has arisen. The new route will not set a precedent. In terms of the 4 million people who will possibly come over, we estimate that up to 2.9 million status holders are eligible for passports, and at the moment there are around 350,000 passport holders. In reality, a large number of those who are eligible will want to stay in Hong Kong or relocate to other countries in the region. It is not possible at this point to predict with accuracy the number of BNO citizens likely to choose to come to the UK.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as captain of a ship based in Hong Kong in the early 1970s, I had a number of locally enlisted personnel in my ship’s company and during my career came across a large number of Hong Kong Chinese serving in the Royal Navy and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary around the world. They took part in a number of actions, including Korea and the Falklands, where some lost their lives. Indeed, after my ship had been sunk, I remember commiserating with my Hong Kong Chinese laundryman about the fact that he had probably lost all his money. He cheerfully said, “Don’t worry sir, my father sunk with Royal Navy in last war so if in water, in package on my person, all safe.” Does the Minister agree that these loyal veterans who served in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces deserve priority approval now? Has the wish of the 64 members of the Hong Kong Military Service Corps—which was raised by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, at an earlier date—for a full British citizen’s passport, which other corps veterans received before 1997, at long last been agreed to?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I knew that the noble Lord would get a ship into his question somehow. I fear that he might have stolen the thunder of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, by asking that question although I am sure that the noble and gallant Lord will ask it again. The Government are giving careful consideration to the representations from those campaigning for that right of abode for former British Hong Kong servicemen. The new visa creates a pathway to citizenship, as he knows, and it will be available to those who elect to retain their ties to the UK through registering for BNO status. We expect that that will include the majority of Armed Forces veterans in Hong Kong.

Reading Terrorist Attack

Lord West of Spithead Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right. It is very easy to take a piece of religious text and twist it so that it has a different meaning or to wind people up by saying that God wants something from them which is not the case. He has talked a lot about religious literacy and ensuring that those who preach whatever religion do so not in a biased or twisted fashion that takes away from the original text.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I share the concerns of my noble friends Lord Rosser and Lady Ramsay that the ISC has not met recently. It is too important to be messed up by internal party-political shenanigans. Having been deputy chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee for some three years, I have no doubt about the competence and dedication of the men and women in the agencies. They are in danger of being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of potential threat suspects, whether additions from abroad or whatever. Is there not a need to further enable technology to assist us? This could include the greater use of CCTV and other electronic items, enabled by 5G; the use of artificial intelligence; utilising big data, and so on. Clearly, there are risks and we must not become a surveillance society. The Investigative Powers Act may need amending. Are these avenues being reviewed with some urgency, bearing in mind the numbers involved?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes a valid point. Technology has its place in keeping us safe. We need to advance that technology in a way that strikes a balance between privacy and protection. Sometimes by breaching people’s privacy, you give them their freedom. There is so much advanced technology available to help keep us safe and it is important that we use it.