Health and Care Bill

Lord Warner Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my new room-mate, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and I agree with every word that she has just said. I also agree with the other speeches that we have heard in favour of the various amendments. I pay particular tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, for her tireless campaign over 40 years on behalf of carers.

I have added my name to Amendment 219 but I will focus on my Amendment 269, which focuses on young carers. I am grateful to the three noble Baronesses who have added their names. Might I be allowed a word on one line in Clause 80, whose future I thought we were debating in this group but which has now been incorporated into the Bill? The line is:

“The Community Care (Delayed Discharges etc) Act 2003 is repealed”.


Noble Lords with long memories may remember that Bill. At the time, I said it was the worst I had seen in 30 years. Instead of doing what this Bill seeks to do —to bring together health and social care to facilitate closer co-operation—it established an antagonistic relationship between the NHS on the one hand and social services on the other by enabling one part of the public sector unilaterally to fine another part. It was a friendless piece of legislation, heavily criticised in your Lordships’ House, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, who had the misfortune to pilot it through, will doubtless confirm.

At the end, my noble friend Lord Howe said, nearly 20 years ago:

“On a more philosophical level, we need to ask ourselves whether this system of financially driven imperatives is what we want to see pervading the fabric of our public services wherever the NHS and social services interact. I am clear that it should not”.—[Official Report, 17/2/03; col. 929.]


How appropriate that, 20 years later, my noble friend helps to put the final nail in the coffin of that Bill. However, it had one redeeming feature: the obligation to assess prior to discharging a patient from hospital. However, as drafted, as other noble Lords have said, the proposals could have the unintended consequence of weakening protections for children who look after adult relatives.

My amendment is about young carers and is shaped by my experience when in another place of working with Andover Young Carers. Children barely in their teens were combining education with caring for disabled parents. The organisation was based in a small bungalow on a local authority estate, and it did heroic work, forging closer links with schools and children’s services. Some of the children spent more than 30 hours each week looking after parents and elderly relatives—almost the equivalent of a full-time job—as well as often having caring responsibilities for younger siblings. They cooked, did the housework, shopped, collected prescriptions, leaving little or no time to enjoy their childhood. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, spoke movingly about the work of young carers in Kingston.

According to research from 2018, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, told us, there are more than 800,000 young carers in the UK. Recent figures show that 180,000 children in England who care for an ill or disabled relative are missing out on support, simply because they are not known to their local authority. Hence the need for this amendment which ensures that young carers are identified before adults are sent home from hospital to be looked after by them. If contact with adult carers is necessary, as we have heard, it is doubly necessary for young carers.

This is because we have clear evidence from Barnardo’s—I am grateful for its briefing—which shows that adults are being discharged from hospital into the care of children, without first making sure that these children are aware of their new responsibilities and that they have the support necessary to enable them to discharge them. I fear this is set to only get worse, placing more caring responsibilities on small shoulders, unless the Bill as currently drafted is amended.

The Care Act 2014 gave a young carer under the age of 18 the right to a needs assessment and placed a duty on local authorities to take reasonable steps to identify young carers in their area who may need support. Yet, in its report Still Hidden, Still Ignored, Barnardo’s found that young carers were still slipping through the net. Its finding is reinforced by the latest CQC survey, which found that 21% of people did not have their family or home situation taken into account when staff prepared them for discharge, a point referred to in the excellent paper which many noble Lords received today from Dr Moore at the University of Manchester.

This amendment places an obligation on the NHS to ascertain whether a patient will be cared for primarily by a young carer and, if so, to contact the local authority concerned for an assessment and the necessary support. This will not delay discharge but would ensure that hospital staff ask if a child under 18 will be the primary carer. If the answer is yes, the hospital should contact the relevant local authority which will ensure that a needs assessment is carried out.

I know the Government have made positive steps to ensure that the needs of young carers are recognised in the guidance which will accompany this Bill, and for that I am grateful. However, without a clear duty on hospitals to establish whether a patient is being discharged into the care of a child, the current situation is likely to continue. Guidance is worthy, but sadly not definitive. Therefore, the pathway for young carers to get the local authority assessment they are entitled to needs to be strengthened and here the health service is the key missing link. I speak to this amendment today because young people who care carry huge responsibilities and we must, as a society, do more to ensure they can live the flourishing lives they deserve.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I strongly support all the amendments in this group. The noble Lord, Lord Young, has been so persuasive and I endorse what he said about young carers. As someone who has been involved with carers for almost as long as the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley—I now regard her as my general in these matters—I want to focus on Amendment 221, to which I have added my name.

It is worth remembering that this Bill is being considered in the context of adult social care funding having been starved, in my view, by three successive Governments. Even when huge sums of money are being raised for health and care through a national insurance levy, social care has to wait its turn. A bit like Oliver Twist, it is at the end of the queue—hopefully there will be some money left in the coffers after the NHS has removed a substantial part of it. That context is very important.

In that context, I find it surprising that somebody somewhere in the Department of Health and Social Care thinks it is a good idea, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said, to weaken the protections for carers. It is worth bearing in mind that one in five carers now waits over six months for an assessment. In a survey from last November, only 24% of carers had received a carers’ assessment or reassessment in the past year. This is the context in which officialdom and Ministers have thought it a good idea to weaken the protections provided in the 2003 Act. There may have been some weaknesses in that Act, but this was not one of them, as it provided for the NHS to undertake these assessments before people were withdrawn. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, is not in his place, but he was the person who took that Bill through and achieved support for that protection for carers.

--- Later in debate ---

We also know that know that local authorities are already under existing duties to assess and meet carers’ needs for support. We are concerned that duplicating these duties by placing them on the NHS in addition to local authorities might not offer a clear benefit to carers, and this should be done at the ICB level. The draft hospital discharge guidance that I mentioned is clear that people should be discharged on to the right pathway, not only on the discharge to assess model but whatever is the most appropriate model.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow. I have been listening very carefully to this. What I do not understand is what happens if there is not enough resource in the local authority. Local authorities have had pretty poor treatment over the last decade compared with the NHS. If there is not enough resource to either do an assessment or meet the needs of that assessment, does it then fall to the NHS to plug the gap if it wants to get the person out of hospital? We would like a little more clarity on that particular aspect.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. The goal is to make sure that the NHS and local authorities work better together. The noble Lord talks about resources. One of the reasons for the levy—whatever one thinks of it—is to help plug that gap and to make sure that there is more money going into social care as well.

Turning to the points made about the term “carer”, we believe that the term is used to capture the whole spectrum of carers, including children and adults who care, unpaid, for a friend or family member. By not imposing a statutory definition, we avoid inadvertently excluding groups, and ensure that ICBs and NHS England promote the involvement of all types of carers and representatives.

Turning to the last amendment in this group, existing legislation already requires local authorities to carry out an assessment of need for all young carers upon request or on the appearance of need. This assessment must consider whether it is appropriate or excessive for the young carer to provide care, in the light of the young carer’s needs and wishes. Indeed, as some noble Lords have said, sometimes what happens is that the hospital may decide it is appropriate but those who are supposed to be doing the caring at home do not feel they have the ability.

We hope that under this, as part of the discharge planning, the current discharge guidance can set out any considerations that should be given to young people in the household who have caring responsibilities. We want to strengthen current processes in respect of young carers too. We are also working with the Department for Education to ensure that protections for young carers are reflected in the new guidance, including setting out where young carers should have a needs assessment arranged before a patient for whom they provide care is discharged, or as soon as possible afterwards.

Given the comments from noble Lords, especially the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and the noble Lord, Lord Warner—sorry, I should say, General Pitkeathley and Major Warner—clearly there are still some concerns over how this will work. It would be worthwhile having some more conversations on this issue to better understand how we see integrated care working, where there may well be gaps in our understanding and whether we can help to close the gaps between the two sides.