Health and Care Bill

Lord Warner Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

Having said all this, I see that the number of amendments that have been tabled reflects the strength of feeling in this House and the other place on workforce issues and workforce planning. I hope I have been able to assure the Committee of the department’s extensive, ongoing work to support the entire health and social care workforce.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. I have been listening extremely carefully to his response to these amendments and have to say, as gently as I can, that I did not hear many concessions to the points made by noble Lords across the Committee. Unless something really exciting is going to come in the last couple of pages of his brief—I have been watching him turn them over—I suggest that he needs to go back to those above his pay grade and bring home to them the level of distrust about whether the Government are serious about putting proper amendments on workforce issues and planning into this Bill.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

You can tell the noble Lord used to have my job, because he clearly anticipated the exciting bit—perhaps not exciting, but more practical—I was coming to. It is quite clear there is a strength of feeling on this issue—

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[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I will briefly speak in support of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and echo many of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, although I draw slightly different conclusions to him.

We have been around this track on social enterprise over the last 15 or 16 years and, in what I might call the good old days, there was a social enterprise unit in the Department of Health. That arose—it is worth remembering this—because many NHS staff preferred to work in a social enterprise unit rather than be direct employees of the NHS. The early days of social enterprises saw a number of groups of staff, particularly nurses, producing, in effect, co-operatives to work as social enterprises. While the noble Lord is entitled to feel a little anxious if there is nothing in the Bill even as modest as Amendment 93 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that arrangement gives some degree of protection to social enterprises which have served the NHS pretty well over the last 15 or 16 years. So, the least the Government could do is accept Amendment 93.

To some extent, the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, relate to the points I made earlier about Amendment 72. The bottom line on all this is that the way the Government have gone about trying to say, in Clause 70, that there needs to be a new provider selection regime, while not declaring their hands, has actually created the worst suspicions. If indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, says, there is adequate provision already, why create the suspicion that some dastardly deed is going to be produced at a later stage by putting in Clause 70 and then not producing the draft regulations before the House clears the Bill?

The Government have got themselves into a fair tangle over this issue, and the Minister would perhaps do well to take this back to the department and try to reassure people as to what the Government are up to. Are they trying to change the Section 75 arrangements, and, if so, in what way? We want a lot more clarity about what the future provider regime will actually look like.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly, having attached my name to a couple of amendments in this group. The issues around Clause 70 have been very clearly addressed, and I will just add one reflection, looking back to a discussion on an earlier group last week, when I said that if the Secretary of State gets great power, with that comes great responsibility. From the debate in your Lordships’ House, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is right to say that the Bill will not leave the House in this condition, but, if it were to, or if, after future amendments and ping-pong it were to end up back in this condition, the Secretary of State would really be in quite a dangerous place.

I pick up on social enterprises and the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. We will be coming to some amendments, perhaps on Wednesday, when I will be talking about the impact of privatisation on social care. There will at some point—we have already seen this several times—be a huge crisis of the financialised social care sector, particularly care homes. When large chains fall apart and we have to find a way forward, social enterprises will be one way. I am aware that Clause 70 mentions healthcare and associated services, but to think about this in a whole and integrated way, we should ensure that there is recognition for social enterprise.

I attached my name to Amendment 208 because I thought it was important to demonstrate maximum cross-party support. Dare I say that events in the House earlier today demonstrated the need for transparency and openness in official contracts? There is great public concern about the misallocation of resources and the need for a guarantee of openness in government and official spending, so that amendment is crucial.

I do not know how I missed Amendment 209 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, but I certainly would have attached my name to it had I not done so. It is often commented that I cover a very broad range of subjects in your Lordships’ House, so I often talk about trade deals in other contexts, but there are very grave concerns about trade deals undercutting principles and priorities that have been identified in British politics, so that amendment is also important.

Finally, on Amendment 211, we have seen that giving government contracts to the lowest cash bidder has had disastrous consequences across a whole range of sectors. It has benefited a handful of giant companies, some of which have collapsed, some of which have engaged in rampant fraud and all of which have delivered a disastrous quality of services, exploiting poorly paid staff. Social enterprise is a different approach, a different way of commissioning and a way out of that. It is a way of relocalisation: stopping those few large companies that keep winning contracts because the whole thing is structured so that only a handful of companies can bid for them anyway. These are all really important amendments.

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[Lord Warner (CB)]

Before the Minister answers that question, could he make clear whether the primary concern of the Government is the interests of the patient or of the NHS? They could be in conflict. Much of what he has said implies that they are the same but they are not, and some of the issues on which the Minister is saying “We’re doing what the NHS wanted” concern me about where the patient’s perspective is in that kind of approach.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a concern that I have heard a number of times: that we should be careful about saying “This is what the NHS wanted”—that the focus has to be about patients. We clearly take the view that this should be patient-centred and patient-focused. Indeed, I have had a number of conversations with many noble Lords about how we make sure that it is patient-focused. We understand, however, that concerns have been raised that Clause 70 may in part be a temporary measure, to be replaced or significantly edited by the Cabinet Office procurement Bill to follow. This is not and never has been our intention, but I understand the concern and recognise that there is value to aligning processes when such alignment is in the wider system interest. We continue to engage with the Cabinet Office on its proposals.

Amendment 213 would make regulations under Clause 70 subject to the super-affirmative procedure. I appreciate the intention behind this amendment. However, we do not feel at the moment that the super-affirmative procedure is necessary. As set out in our delegated powers memorandum, the powers created by Clause 70 are inserted into the NHS Act 2006, in line with the vast majority of regulation-making powers under that Act.

We know that there is significant parliamentary interest around the rules determining how healthcare services are arranged, so it is vital that we strike the right balance between democratic scrutiny and operational flexibility. The negative procedure provides that balance and ensures transparency and scrutiny. We will continue to engage widely on the proposals for the regulations to be made under these powers, to ensure that they will deliver—

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I take the point that my noble friend makes, and I completely understand the concerns; that is why it is important that I take many of the concerns raised today back to the department.

Clause 70 inserts a new Section 12ZB into the NHS Act 2006, allowing the Secretary of State to make regulations. I have a lengthy explanation here but, frankly, I am not sure that it will pass muster. If noble Lords will allow me to go back to the department—I may be a sucker for punishment, but I accept the concerns and I will go back—

[Lord Warner (CB)]

Would the Minister like a few of us to go along to the department with him?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

As the noble Lord will recognise, when I was appointed to this job, I did say that I wanted to consult as many previous Health Ministers as possible, as well as people who have worked in the field. It is clear from this debate that more consultation and discussion are needed, so I would welcome noble Lords’ advice. On that note, I beg that Clause 70 stand part of this Bill and hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.