Lord Mandelson: Response to Humble Address Motion

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches hesitate to criticise the due diligence process by the security services and the Civil Service; it seems to have been effectively and efficiently done but disregarded by the Prime Minister’s political advisers and overridden by the Prime Minister. Presumably he thought the task of establishing and maintaining a close relationship with President Trump demanded someone like Peter Mandelson in spite of, or even because of, his flaws.

Can the Minister tell us when further files will be released? I have just looked through the first package that has been released, which is actually very thin. There is clearly an awful lot more to come out—to repeat, there is a lot to come out not just from London but from Washington, which will overlap on to this.

I am sure the whole House will be happy that the Minister has been appointed by the Prime Minister to look further into this. We will all do our best to co-operate with her in making sure that standards and procedures are improved. Can she tell us more about her work programme in her new responsibilities on ethics and standards? Will that work be primarily within government or across the parties and both Houses to make sure that, as far as possible, it gets the maximum buy-in from everyone concerned and interested in politics, and will therefore have the best chance of succeeding? Will she, for example, consider strengthening the parliamentary oversight of major public appointments, which is, after all, a common occurrence in a number of other parliamentary democracies?

How do the Government propose to strengthen further the Ministerial Code? Will they commit to regular revisions with advice from committees in both Houses?

Does the Minister recognise that the case that many of us keep making for putting the Ethics and Integrity Commission, ACOBA and a number of other bodies on a statutory basis is a matter of future-proofing? We do not know what the outcome of the next election will be but it could be extremely messy and lead to some form of coalition Government. We need to make sure that we future-proof our standards and commitments to make sure that any new Government who come in will find it easier to accept them than to override them. We have plenty of lessons from Washington of how easily things can go wrong, and we need as far as we can to prevent them similarly going wrong over here.

Can the Minister say a little about implications for the House of Lords? I note that the Conduct Committee is being charged with the rather difficult task of looking at our standards. The Leader of the House reprimanded me the other week for referring to us as a part-time House and replied that we are now effectively a full-time House. Yes, we are, but the way in which we are managed and governed still assumes that we are part-time and earn other things outside the House, and that that requires us to have a different set of concerns about private, commercial and financial interests and activities outside from those in the Commons. If we are now to be judged on the same level as the Commons as a full-time House then that is quite a radical readjustment of the way one thinks about the second Chamber.

Can I also ask a little about what happens when Peers are disbarred from the House? Will the Government consider putting before the House the idea that they should no longer be able to hold their titles? Removing them from the peerage roll would be perhaps a more important way of signalling that they no longer have a position of honour within our political system.

Of course, behind all this there are some broader issues about the financial and political culture in London, Washington, New York and Westminster. Wealth and money in politics is something we are all going to face as the Representation of the People Bill arrives in this House in a few months. We will need to look at that very carefully. I hope we may be assured that the Government will work with us to make sure that money does not override other matters in our life.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent)]

I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their questions. It is incredibly important that these matters are addressed, not least because they now drive a huge amount of my own personal work. I will come on to that.

First, I will provide an update following the Statement made in the other place last week by the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister on the release of the first tranche of documents in response to the humble Address Motion of 4 February. As the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister rightly stated:

“Jeffrey Epstein was a despicable criminal who committed … disgusting crimes that destroyed the lives of countless women and girls. What he did is … unforgivable”.


His victims must be

“our first priority. Peter Mandelson’s behaviour”—

including encouraging Jeffrey Epstein to fight his conviction for abusing a vulnerable young girl—

“was an insult to them and their suffering”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/3/26; col. 359.]

We should also never forget that every time we discuss Epstein’s horrendous behaviour, his victims relive awful experiences. These survivors must be front and centre when we debate all issues related to Jeffrey Epstein, his network and their impact.

That is why there is a cross-party consensus in both Houses for full transparency and accountability. The Government are committed to publishing all documents relevant to the humble Address and last week published the first tranche. These documents relate specifically to the decision to appoint Peter Mandelson as ambassador to the US and the discussions that subsequently led to his dismissal. Further work is ongoing to compile the rest of the information in scope. The Government recognise the urgency with which this work must be completed and will keep your Lordships updated as it progresses.

The Prime Minister has taken personal responsibility for Peter Mandelson’s appointment as ambassador. He has acknowledged that it was a mistake and apologised, not least for believing Peter Mandelson’s lies. While the documents point to public reports of an ongoing relationship between Peter Mandelson and Jeffrey Epstein, the advice did not expose the depth and extent of their relationship, which became apparent only after the release of files by Bloomberg and then the US Department of Justice.

As the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister set out last week, there are specific documents that this Government would like to disclose but the Metropolitan Police has asked us not to do so yet to avoid prejudicing the ongoing criminal investigation into Peter Mandelson. We have agreed to that request. We will publish these documents once the Metropolitan Police has confirmed that this will no longer prejudice its investigation.

The Government have already taken steps to address weaknesses in the system and I will update your Lordships on the further steps we will take. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government have asked the Conduct Committee of your Lordships’ House to review the Code of Conduct to consider what changes are required to ensure that Members of your Lordships’ House can be removed when they have brought the peerage into disrepute. We are also exploring whether the committee can further strengthen the rules on lobbying and paid advocacy.

The Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister also announced that the Prime Minister has asked the Ethics and Integrity Commission to conduct a review of the current arrangements relating to financial disclosures for Ministers and senior officials, transparency around lobbying, and the Business Appointment Rules, and I look forward to receiving its report before the Summer Recess. The Chief Secretary also confirmed that we will conduct a review of the national security vetting system to ensure that we learn the lessons from the policy and process weaknesses related to the Mandelson case.

With regard to some of the specifics that were asked, I think some of the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, will be slightly easier for me to answer, given that they are in my direct purview. On the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, we have been clear that many more documents will follow in coming tranches. The noble Baroness was concerned about who is seeing what and when. I want to be clear that, while we are withholding some documents at the request of the Metropolitan Police, we have agreed with Simon Hoare MP, the chair of PACAC in the other place, that he is seeing all documents being withheld, so a member of His Majesty’s Opposition is seeing everything as we go through it.

Given the scale of what we are doing and the fact that we are complying and will comply with both the spirit and the letter of the humble Address, it is appropriate that we are releasing the documents in such a way that is sensible given their nature, but also that the ISC is seeing them so that it can deal with them. I assure noble Lords that all the documents will be published and that noble Lords will have the opportunity to see them all—but, given the live police investigation, we have to take this step by step.

I just want to touch on the 56 documents. I have read the paperwork related to them but I do not recognise the 56 documents. The noble Baroness asked specifically whether legal advice had been taken on the schedule. I have not seen that, but I will revert to her if such advice exists. She also questioned whether the Prime Minister had misled the Commons. He absolutely has not; his comments all the way through are in line with the paperwork being released in each tranche.

On some of the specifics raised by the noble Baroness, obviously she is aware that I cannot comment on the Committee of Privileges of the other place—that was Parliament holding a former Member to account. She asked about some of the things that we have already done, as did the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. I will touch on severance payments, which were a core theme from the noble Baroness. As the documents show, Peter Mandelson initially requested a sum that was substantially larger than the final payment—more than six times the final amount—despite the fact that he was withdrawn from Washington because he had lost the confidence of the Prime Minister. As the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister explained yesterday, the Government obviously found that to be inappropriate and unacceptable. The settlement that was agreed was to avoid even higher costs from a drawn-out legal claim at the employment tribunal, given Peter Mandelson’s employment as a civil servant rather than a Minister.

As noble Lords will know, Ministers can be dismissed without recourse to the employment tribunal—let us hope I am not experiencing that soon—but civil servants are treated differently. As can be seen from the documents, Peter Mandelson’s settlement was in line with his employment contract and standard Civil Service HR processes, avoiding the risk and high costs of drawn-out legal action and ensuring he was quickly removed from the payroll. As set out in the documents, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury approved this payment in line with standard HMT guidance on the use of severance payments.

I have already touched on the issue of vetting, but I want to spend a couple of moments responding to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. On the question about the release of further documentation, given that this request is supported by both Houses but is about the Commons and complying with the Commons, obviously we need to lay those documents when the House is sitting. Those documents will come forward in due course, either before or after the Recess.

I look forward to discussing many details of my own work programme with Members of your Lordships’ House, not least the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. I truly believe that if we are to rebuild faith in politicians, and in what I consider to be one of the most important buildings in the country, it has to be a cross-party, cross-government and cross-Parliament project, so I will actively seek to work with all Members of your Lordships’ House on where we believe the gaps are, what we can realistically fix and how we can rebuild trust.

With regard to the Ministerial Code revisions, the noble Lord will not be surprised that, unlike his colleagues in the other place, who suggested that we may want to put it on a statutory footing, we will not be seeking to do that, but I am very aware of what he said about future-proofing standards. Many people who have been at this Dispatch Box and at Dispatch Boxes in the other place are aware that we rarely get to look at standards in the round. The last time that was done with a clear objective was in establishing the Nolan principles. I view this as a once-in-a-generation opportunity to make sure that we get this right. We have a Minister dedicated to it—I do not know the last time that happened—so it is about how we can ensure we use this moment to fix the things that typically get pushed to one side.

However, I agree with my noble friend the Leader of our House, Lady Smith: we are a full-time House with part-time Members and we are different from the other place. Noble Lords will be aware that I used to be a Member of the other place and am married to a Member of the other place; what he is expected to do and what I did before I was on the Front Bench are two very different sets of responsibilities. We need to make sure that we do not lose what is so special about this building and our Chamber, and some of the expertise we have because of people’s outside interests compared to the other place.

The noble Lord raised the Representation of the People Bill and the impact of money. He did not touch on the Rycroft review, which will be coming forward and will very much tie into our discussions on these issues.

I conclude by reiterating that Jeffrey Epstein was a despicable individual, and Peter Mandelson’s decision to put their relationship before his victims and the vulnerable is reprehensible. As the Prime Minister said, the victims of Epstein have lived with trauma that most of us can barely comprehend. They have had to relive it again and again, and they have had to see accountability delayed and too often denied. Peter Mandelson should never have been appointed. The Government will comply with the humble Address and I will provide further updates to your Lordships’ House in due course.

Iranian State-sponsored Cyber Attacks: Mitigation and Preparation

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 11th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right that we need to make sure that we are protecting British industry and working with key allies. Last year, cyber attacks cost the economy £15 billion, and it is a growing threat. We need to work with business, but also to be led by it because it knows what infrastructure is there. As some noble Lords will be aware, some of this is low tech as much as high technology, and people are seeking every vulnerability. We all need to be cognisant of that and make sure there is a genuinely whole-society approach.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, if we are going to have a whole-society response, we had better make sure that the whole society is informed about the nature of the threat. Nearly a year ago, the strategic defence review talked about the need for

“a national conversation led by the Government”—

political leadership by the Government—to inform and educate the wider public about the nature of these new cyber and other hybrid threats from a number of different countries: Iran, Russia, China and others. When are the Government going to provide that political leadership through the national conversation which was proposed?

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I am disappointed that not everybody looks at the NCSC’s website in the same way that I do to ensure that they are updated. The noble Lord is right that we need to make sure that people are aware. It was one of the reasons why it was so important in the run-up to the national alerts we had on all our phones last year that materials were made available about what else could be done in terms of resilience and what other things needed to be done. I urge all noble Lords to make sure they are also protected. I hate to do this, but there is a cyber offer available to every Member of your Lordships’ House, and I believe only 10 of us have accessed it. It would be very good if all Members of your Lordships’ House took up the security offering provided to protect us while we talk about others too.

UK-EU Customs Union

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Thursday 29th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we have been hearing different versions of economic and political reality in this debate. I want to focus in my short speech on two issues that lie behind negotiating a customs union: the question of sovereignty and an EU reset; and the foreign policy, security and defence aspects of again moving closer to the EU and its member states. Right-wing media again leapt up to cry, “You’re threatening British sovereignty” as soon as resetting our relationship with the EU was proposed, but the idea that the UK could somehow maintain absolute sovereignty in an integrated international economy with instant communications was always a myth.

I recall Geoffrey Howe, when he was Foreign Secretary 45 years ago, talking about sharing sovereignty with our European partners. He did not spell out explicitly that the alternative was yielding sovereignty to the United States, adopting US regulations and following its international political lead. We are now seeing that alternative spelled out brutally in threats from President Trump against our attempts to tax and regulate US tech corporations that dominate our social media, and to maintain higher standards of food production than US exporters want. I think it is clear, in an underlying way, that the alternative the noble Lord, Lord Offord, and others want to present is a Britain that would become like the Republican vision of the United States, with a small state, gross levels of inequality and a very damaged society.

As other noble Lords have said, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, we now face a much more hostile global environment, in which even middle-level powers such as the UK find it hard to stand up alone to pressure from China or the USA. The collective weight of European democracies, exercised through the EU, is, however, capable of maintaining autonomy. We need to contribute to that collective weight to protect our preferred patterns of market and product regulation and our environmental and social protections. We are a social democracy, and we do not wish to become an American-style very unsocial democracy. We need to co-operate on security and defence, pooling our efforts to resist the imperial ambitions and subversive activities of Russia and China and now, sadly, also of the United States.

Britain played a leading part in developing the EU’s co-operation in foreign policy. I recall Jim Callaghan, when Foreign Secretary, returning from an early meeting of what was then called European Political Co-operation and enthusing about how useful it was in promoting British interests. Five years later, Lord Carrington’s London report set out proposals to institutionalise regular consultations on international threats and initiatives. When the Berlin Wall came down, I recall the Metropolitan Police asking Chatham House, where I then worked, to organise a seminar on how to build closer police co-operation with our European neighbours. When Europol was then established, it had a substantial number of UK staff and a British Secretary-General. Similarly, when the European Defence Agency was set up, it had a further number of impressive British staff concerned to promote both shared and UK interests.

Brexit threw all this away, with Brexiteers arguing that America was the only ally we needed, that the Indo-Pacific was the future and that European co-operation contributed little to Britain’s security. We have now learned how wrong they were, and our Labour Government are hesitantly beginning the long, hard path back to what we have lost. The Government are still too timid on this, as on other policy areas, and they need to explain to the British public how much our international context has changed for the worse, how much more important our security and defence have become, and how our natural partners in defending and promoting our national interests are our neighbours across the channel.

UK-EU Relations

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Thursday 13th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches note with interest the call from the noble Lord, Lord True, for a substantial increase in our defence spending—and no doubt for the higher taxes to pay for it. We also think that the correct adjective to describe the Government’s approach to the EU is not ruthless but timid. It is timid in defining a reset by the negatives of what we are not doing, rather than what we are doing. It is timid because we are not really investing in finding out what we require and what costs and benefits that would have.

I want to ask the Minister: first, are we rebuilding the expertise in Whitehall, which we had abandoned in recent years, on how the EU works, on relations with the Commission and on the complications of regulations in the European Union, which we have to relate to and which I think a great many people now simply do not understand? Secondly, since we are clearly heading towards the sort of relationship that Switzerland has with the European Union—untidy, painful but necessary—are we spending a lot of time talking to the Swiss about the difficulties of their relations with the European Union? That is where we are likely to end up if this timid half-reset proceeds within the boundaries which the Government, frightened of the Daily Mail as they are, are about to pursue.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

On whether the Government’s approach is timid, I note that if the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, believes we are too timid and the noble Lord, Lord True, thinks we are potentially going too far, it is possible that we are getting the balance right. The Government are determined to reset the relationship with our European friends. The EU is the UK’s largest trading partner, and it would be irresponsible if this Government did not attempt to make sure we have good relations with the EU. This has been a priority of this Government. It is five years since the UK exited the EU, and we are determined to make sure that, with economic growth being the number one mission of this Government, boosting trade abroad, including with the EU, is absolutely essential to delivering a strong economy at home.

Civil Servants: Compulsory Office Attendance

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, we are having a debate both on a general principle and a particular situation. I have not discovered enough about the strike at the Land Registry and the issues involved there to want to comment on it. We would need to know what sort of work they do there and whether they need to be in the office most of the time to do that sort of work.

I live in Saltaire at weekends, 200 miles from London. I have a new neighbour who works for a London publisher, and she tells me she will need to be in the office at least once a month. But she is an editor; it is relatively easy for her managers to discover how effectively she works because, if she rapidly turns out an edited book on screen, her productivity is clearly rather good. I have another neighbour who works as an accountant for an accountancy company in Canary Wharf, and he goes down at least twice a month. There are reasons why, if you do that sort of job, you can easily work from home. If, on the other hand, you have a public-facing job, you need to be facing the public in the right place every day. We should not have hard and fast rules on all this.

By and large, post Covid, there are many jobs in which a 60/40 balance is just about right. I say with amazement that a member of my extended family is head of the risk analysis team of an international bank. The team is based in the City, but part of it is based in the other capital of the international bank. He works at home two days a week. He works extremely effectively and hard, and I am happy to say that his bank pays him a great deal. It would have been unthinkable some years ago for those people not to have been in their bank all the time, but computers now allow you to do a lot of that work at home.

Incidentally, it is quite right to say that the better-off have it easier here. If you can afford to have a larger house and a special place to work, that is much more comfortable than working on your kitchen table. However, the world in which we were 25 years ago, where the assumption was that you were always in the office, has gone. Covid and computers have changed that.

I declare an interest in that I have spent most of my life as an academic. As an academic, you never go into the office more than three days a week. The quiet that you need to do your research and write your lectures is not one easily interrupted by your colleagues coming in and saying, “Hey, how about a coffee?”. However, when I worked in a think tank, I needed to be in at least four days a week. Since I was in an international think tank, I worked over the weekend very often, flying from one place to another. It depends on the sort of job you have.

For parents, childcare is clearly an important part of the work/life balance. I notice that from those in my family who have children. I am happy to say as a grandparent that the obligation on grandparents to pick up the children from school has declined with the ability of parents sometimes to work from home and stop in the middle of the afternoon. That is good. I hope that we get away from the world in which City law firms and banks expect their younger people to work 10 to 12 hours a day and on Saturdays in the office, killing their social life and their opportunities to meet others and have children. That is an appalling obligation, which I trust is going.

Where we are now, with good management—I accept all that has been said about the poverty of decent management and good HR within the Civil Service—we ought to be able to reach a stage at which, one by one, looking at the variety of different jobs, we agree a different pattern of working that will probably come out at between 60/40 and 80/20. We should not weaponise the debate. I know there are some—the Jacob Rees-Moggs of this world—who would like to be able to go around and leave little cards on desks. He does not seem to be aware that the Civil Service does not have sufficient office space for everyone if they now came in. One by one, we are able now, I think, to accept that society and the economy are changing.

Ministerial Code: Policy Announcements

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government take their obligations to Parliament extremely seriously. As the Minister for the Cabinet Office said in the other place yesterday, the Speaker’s comments have been heard by Ministers across government, including in this House. As for Treasury Ministers making announcements in the other place, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury made an Oral Statement to Parliament on Monday about the fiscal rules and Treasury Ministers answered questions in the other place yesterday. Today, the Chancellor set out in Parliament the full details of the Budget, which will fix the foundations of our economy. Anyone who was watching the faces of the Opposition Front Bench will know that most of the measures were clearly a surprise. The leader of the Opposition seemed particularly glum as he looked at his phone for his revised lines.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister understand why we on these Benches feel that we keep hearing the pot calling the kettle black? I note that, in the Commons, the Conservative spokesperson complained that the Labour Party was behaving just as badly as the Conservatives had. Perhaps I should admit that, during the coalition Government, George Osborne, as Chancellor, was heard to complain that Nick Clegg’s office briefed out all the juicy bits from the Budget before he had a chance to give his Budget speech—so everyone does it to a certain amount. Does the Minister accept that the idea that everything in the Budget should be unknown beforehand and sprung immediately on Parliament is perhaps not the best way to handle financial and spending planning in today’s complicated environment, and that that is one of the things the new Government should be reconsidering, in consultation with the other parties?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

This party and the Government understand our obligations to Parliament and take them extremely seriously, but I note the noble Lord’s points. As the Minister for the Cabinet Office said in the other place, we have heard what the Speaker said, and all Ministers are very clear about their responsibility to the other place and, on this Front Bench, to your Lordships’ House.

Statutory Instruments (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 18th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, this is a modest but constructive proposal for a change in the way in which Parliament and the Government interact. I very much hope that the Government will welcome it and give it their support or take it forward in some other way. We are talking about balance: the very important balance between Parliament and the Executive, and the equally important balance between primary and secondary legislation.

There is a major underlying principle that I have become more and more irritated about during my years in this House. One hears people talking about the principle of parliamentary sovereignty—how that is the foundation of our constitution—but the reality, we all know, is prime ministerial sovereignty, Executive dominance and “elective dictatorship”, as a former Lord Hailsham described it when in opposition. He of course did not think that way when in government. I noticed that on the Conservative Front Benches only a week ago the noble Lord, Lord True, said, in effect, that this Government were behaving like an elective dictatorship. It is not something he would have been saying a few months ago.

One sees a new Government coming in and one hopes that the quality of governance will improve. So far, the signs are not good. One sees Ministers wishing to rush ahead with a whole set of proposals. One sees reports that Labour Whips are telling their MPs that under no circumstances are they to vote against any government proposals. That does not have much to do with parliamentary sovereignty.

What we saw under the last Government was a situation in which primary legislation got more and more like skeleton Bills, secondary and tertiary legislation increased and, as Ministers came and went every six to nine months, the belief that they should act immediately and push something else through meant that we had inconsistent policies and, frankly, increasingly bad government. Good government is slow and considered government, with rationales for what is being proposed and with impact assessments.

The Bill proposes that the Government should be willing to think again and that, when there is secondary legislation, some mechanism should be provided to make the Commons and the Government think again. I remind the Minister that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report says:

“The abuse of delegated powers is in effect an abuse of Parliament and an abuse of democracy”.


We are not talking here about the primacy of the Commons; we are talking about the fundamental importance of parliamentary scrutiny for democracy in holding the Government to account.

The second report said that,

“if because of modern conditions Parliament is being asked to accept new ways of legislating, then it is surely right that the Government must stand ready to accept new methods of scrutiny”.

So I ask the Minister: will the Government accept that we need to change the rules? Do they also accept that that has to be done by primary legislation? Or do they agree with the comments of the Hansard Society that this could be done by changing the Standing Orders of both Houses? In which case, would the Minister agree to look into that and see how quickly it might be done?

Procurement Act 2023

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I can only agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that, when the Procurement Act was first presented—it started in the Lords—it was one of the most badly drafted Bills I have ever seen, and that the Government themselves produced 350 amendments between Second Reading and Committee? Do the Government intend to look again at the rules covering outsourcing, particularly to companies which have in the past made excessive profits from government contracts?

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

I will look into that matter and write to the noble Lord on that point.

Public Sector Productivity

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, I want to talk about morale as an important part of improving the productivity of the Civil Service, about digital transformation and, above all, about training.

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, talked about culture as important. One thing that I saw when I was in the coalition Government was the cultural problem of the relationship between Ministers and officials and the cultural assumption that some Ministers had—quite a lot of Ministers in the Conservative Party—that civil servants were lazy and inefficient and therefore were to be insulted. I recall vividly a meeting at which there were several Permanent Secretaries and a senior Conservative Minister who started by saying what he thought of the Civil Service and how useless they were. Then, afterwards, he was rather surprised that the Permanent Secretaries had not been particularly sympathetic to the criticisms and proposals that he was making.

When we have one of the two candidates left fighting for the leadership of the Conservative Party talking about 10% of the Civil Service needing to be put in prison, we are dealing with a culture in which you are unlikely to motivate civil servants to do things that you would like. I hope that this Government will treat the Civil Service with a great deal more respect.

I also hope that Ministers will stay in office for longer. The most depressing thing that I have heard in this context in the past few days is the suggestion that the Government might push through a ministerial reshuffle after six months. Civil servants whom I know— I used to teach people who then went into the Civil Service—spoke to me about how awful it is when you have a new Minister and then, nine months later, he or she is gone and another one comes in who is either too arrogant to bother to learn about the subject or too slow to want to learn. A number of the best officials whom I worked with in government have since left. Of course, another reason why they have left is that the gap between Civil Service pay and outside pay has grown too wide. That is one reason why it was right to increase the pay of senior civil servants. I speak with passion on this because a member of my family left the Civil Service two years ago and is now earning about 40% more than what she was earning as a senior civil servant. If you have that gap, as with teachers and with junior doctors, retention becomes a problem.

On the digital dimension, we have fallen a long way behind. That is, again, partly a failure of government. I was very sorry to see in the Times this morning the attack on Mike Bracken after he was appointed as a director at HMRC. I worked with him when he was head of the Government Digital Service and was attempting to drive a digital transformation earlier in Whitehall. That failed partly because he did not get the support of senior Ministers and because each department fought its own territory. We need people like him who will push forward a digital transformation in Whitehall—the sort of thing that gets rid of those who have to work with paper—and make databases link across Whitehall. It is not an area in which I am expert, but it is clear that there are substantial productivity gains to be made.

However, I really want to talk about training and the failure that we have seen on training in the last seven to 15 years. I declare an interest in that my wife trained civil servants in the early years of the Civil Service College. I too worked some 25 years ago on the top management course, which was a wonderful team-building course for senior civil servants. One of the things that happened in 2010—I regret that the Liberal Democrats failed to stop it—was that the National School of Government was abolished and Sunningdale sold off. Civil Service Learning was left online—indeed, an online campus was developed. I heard very critical remarks from my former students about how useless this was. Of course, it was outsourced, first to Capita and then to KPMG and EY. The Government have just extended the KPMG contract for another £223 million, on the assumption that KPMG in turn will subcontract, having taken on others for delivery. This is waste and inefficiency. If one is serious about training civil servants, one needs to rebuild the capacity within government which can help to give a sense of corporate responsibility, team-building and the professional skills that we need. If we restore morale, sustain ministerial leadership, drive forward investment in digital transformation and rebuild training, we will have a much more productive Civil Service.

Whitehall: Prioritising Performance

Lord Wallace of Saltaire Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

All of us have probably come across points at which people are treated as almost indispensable. Part of the value of people stepping back and having a report of this kind is that we can focus on what those critical single points of failure are. I will feed back the noble Baroness’s comments to the relevant Minister.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned that retention of the exceptionally talented is a problem. I have been distressed in the last five years to discover that some of the most talented civil servants I worked with in the coalition have given up and left the Civil Service, partly because of the rapid turnover of Ministers, partly because of the way in which some Ministers treated their officials, and also because a number of Ministers always seemed to prefer advice from consultants to that from civil servants. In that context, can the Minister explain why the Government have just given—perhaps she inherited the idea from her predecessor—a £200 million contract to KPMG to train civil servants? To my knowledge, KPMG is not particularly expert in training governmental officials, and it would be much cheaper and more effective to ask the university sector to train civil servants instead. I declare an interest as I used, as a university academic, to train civil servants.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

This is not an issue that I have got specific details on. I will go back and ask about it, but I assume that this would have been subject to a pretty rigorous procurement process.