Northern Ireland Protocol: Implementation Proposals

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 19th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, yesterday Northern Ireland business leaders told Members of Parliament that the Government have left them without clarity, details or time to deal with the huge change that is coming. The president of the Ulster Farmers’ Union said they are being asked to prepare with both arms tied behind their back and a blindfold on. So what are the contingency plans for business if the customs declaration service is not available by 1 January? Why have businesses had no information on how a tariff rebate system would work? As noble Lords know, businesses always need certainty, and certainty here is absolutely lacking.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to ensuring that businesses and communities are ready for the end of the transition period. I am sorry to hear of the remarks reported by the noble Lord, but our intensive programme of engagement with industry continues at pace. The Business Engagement Forum has now met 20 times since May, and this month the Chancellor of the Duchy formed a UK-wide business readiness task force. We have also made considerable progress on the provision of guidance, publishing over 25 pieces of sectoral guidance for businesses moving goods between Northern Ireland and GB in recent weeks.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD) [V]]

Yesterday’s Statement in in the House of Commons was a bravura performance, but completely out of touch with reality. Is it not the case that any small business in Northern Ireland planning for Brexit is faced with a nightmare of distraction, with few hard facts on which to base any decisions? The five essential steps on InterTradeIreland pose detailed questions on the supply chain, customs, people and data, to which answers are not available. If you ask your supply chain, they do not yet have the answers; if you ask customs, neither do they, and so on. When will the trader support service be in a position to deliver to businesses that register? Does the Minister accept that, given the continuing uncertainty, services in support of the trader support service will be needed for years to come?

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[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, in relation to the trader support service, I can report to the House that, whereas my honourable friend in the House of Commons said that 7,000 businesses had signed up, 9,000 businesses have now signed up, with hundreds more joining every day. We will shortly set out further support for agri-food producers engaging with new SPS processes.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend share my concern that far too many people see this issue solely through the prism of strand 2 of the Belfast agreement and of avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland? Will he confirm that the 1998 agreement contains three strands, while the consent principle underpins Northern Ireland’s position as an integral part of our United Kingdom? As such, is it not imperative that Northern Ireland continues to benefit from free and unfettered access to what is by far its largest single market?

[Lord True (Con)]

My noble friend raises an important point and I can certainly reassure him that the Government remain committed to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in its entirety, including all three strands; east-west is vital, as he says. We are delivering on our unequivocal commitment to deliver unfettered access, and I hope very much that noble Lords will reconsider their obstruction of the legislation on that subject.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I warmly welcome the joint letter of 5 November from the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to Commissioner Šefčovič. In view of the significant concerns that they jointly expressed, what is being done to allow supermarkets to continue to service Northern Ireland from Great Britain? Can the Minister confirm reports that the UK and the EU are considering agreeing a grace period to allow supermarkets time to adapt to the protocols approach, which is still under discussion in the Joint Committee?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Earl raises an extremely important point. I cannot go into matters that are, as he implies, under active discussion, but we have certainly committed to an intensified process of engagement with the EU to resolve all outstanding issues such as this, which includes securing flexibilities for trade from GB to NI. That is particularly important for supermarkets, where we have been clear that specific solutions are required. The recent joint letter from the First Minister and Deputy First Minister reflects how important that issue is for Northern Ireland, and we will continue to work closely with the Executive to get a solution to this problem.

[Lord Bilimoria (CB) [V]]

Agreement with the EU is key for the sustainability and implementation of the protocol. As president of the CBI, I hear from businesses on a daily basis about the urgent need for the clarity that is needed on the transfer of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. Businesses want clarity, but they also want to ensure that the protocol works long-term for peace, trade and investment—and this starts with a deal. Does the Minister agree that clarity is needed to ensure the continued flow of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

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[Lord True (Con)]

I certainly agree on the importance of clarity. As I have said, certain matters are still under discussion in the joint committee, but the Government have already issued 25 documents of sectoral guidance. We are actively engaged with business in Northern Ireland and we attach the highest importance to these points.

[Baroness Goudie (Lab) [V]]

This situation threatens the rights and equality clauses in the Belfast agreement, because European law has long been crucial to support those rights. At the time of the Belfast agreement, it was guaranteed that there would be no diminution of such rights as a result of Brexit. These rights are also threatened with regard to Britain’s future membership of the European Convention on Human Rights. In addition, the UK Government’s lack of commitment to guaranteed labour, anti-discrimination and environmental rights in Northern Ireland equal to those enjoyed during the EU membership suggests that they are also under threat.

[Lord True (Con)]

I disagree with the noble Baroness. The Government are committed to human rights principles and to the maintenance of the Good Friday agreement.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the Northern Ireland protocol commits to “unfettered” access for all goods, including agri-foods. Does my noble friend accept that there will be a new legal obligation for submitting a customs declaration for import and export purposes that will both take time and incur expense to fill in? How does that square with the commitment to unfettered access?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, unfettered access from Northern Ireland to GB will be sustained and there will be no customs checks. So far as GB-NI is concerned, any control will be at a very minimal level, with risk assessment and administration undertaken by UK authorities.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, would the Minister agree that we are being a little hypocritical in admonishing China over Hong Kong while preparing to renege on provisions in the EU withdrawal agreement and the Northern Ireland protocol? Would he also agree that trying to get the best of all worlds in trade could seriously affect progress under the Good Friday agreement?

[Lord True (Con)]

No, I do not. The maintenance of the Good Friday agreement requires unfettered access, which was committed to by the EU and in the reformation of the Northern Ireland Executive. So far as comparing the actions of the UK Government with those of communist China, I indignantly reject the parallel.

[Lord Robathan (Con) [V]]

My Lords, does Her Majesty’s Government consider that both sides in the negotiations regarding the protocol and the withdrawal agreement are acting in good faith? Would it not cause much greater harm to, and further undermine, the Belfast agreement if we were to separate Great Britain from Northern Ireland, contrary to the wishes, or without the consent, of all the people in Northern Ireland?

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[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, consent—and the consent of both communities—is absolutely fundamental to this whole process. I agree with my noble friend that it would be to the benefit of all if a reasonable agreement could be reached sooner, as the UK Government hope is still possible.

[Lord Hain (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, has the Minister any idea of how desperate businesses in Northern Ireland, especially those trading across the Irish Sea—as many do—are to know what their future will be in a month’s time? I say bluntly: please do not give us the same old warm waffle about how it will be all right on the night. People’s jobs and livelihoods are at stake here, and they have no idea what the future holds for them.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, to say that the Government are wholly committed to the future security and prosperity of business in Northern Ireland is not “warm waffle”; it is the truth of the matter. We are providing extensive support through the trader support service. I have referred to other measures, including the £150 million that has been put into IT systems, and we are working at pace to deliver all that is necessary. I hope that agreement can be reached in the joint committee and that any uncertainties there can be resolved.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Haskel) (Lab)]

All the questions have now been answered.