European Union Bill

Lord Tomlinson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, it will not surprise anyone who was at Second Reading that I not only support the amendment so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, but think that no part of Part 1 is worth preserving. It is therefore axiomatic, as someone who is opposed to the whole of Part 1, that I support every aspect of deletion of the Bill—hence the various notices that I have given, along with colleagues, to vote against clauses standing part of the Bill. However, if the House were to be persuaded by the more gentle logic of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, in relation to particular aspects, such as Article 48(6), I might well be prepared to concede, if individual clauses are so useless by the time they are amended, that a Motion to delete a clause might not be necessary.

Let us be absolutely clear—and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, made it particularly clear—that Article 48(6) and the procedures laid down by it were debated in this House and in another place when we endorsed the Lisbon treaty. The article was endorsed by both Houses in the ratification process. All that it does, as our Constitution Committee pointed out with abundant clarity, is allow for the provision of Part 3 of the Treaty on European Union relating to internal policies and actions of the EU, and to them only, and subject to a restriction that this kind of decision shall not increase European Union competences.

Under this provision, the European Council, when it is debating anything proposed under Article 48(6), is required to consult the European Commission and the European Parliament and then to act in unanimity. In these circumstances, I should be very interested to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Howell, precisely which type of issue his normally extremely fertile mind can determine might be one to which we want to agree in the Council but we are fearful that we will incur the wrath of the British people and, therefore, may have to hold a referendum. It would help your Lordships’ House if we heard one or two illustrative examples of the sort of potentially excessive transfers of powers to the European Union that are causing Foreign Office Ministers to have sleepless nights.

I support the amendment. It is the least change that would be acceptable to many Members of your Lordships’ House. It should be carried if there are no persuasive arguments to retain this provision. If that happens, it may not be necessary to delete Clause 1, although obviously that option will remain available to us when we have completed the debate.

[Lord Deben]

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, can help us on this occasion, because I fear that if he does not, two problems will occur. The first is the way in which the Bill has been explained to people such as me, who hold the same view about Europe that we started with and have no intention of changing it because it is even more important now than it was when we began. We have been told that the Bill is merely a means whereby we can give the British people confidence that, should some very large change be made, there will be an automatic opportunity for them to give their view.

I do not believe in referenda in any circumstances. They are wholly unsuitable in a parliamentary democracy; they are a foreign invention used by people for ulterior motives; and they have never been part of the sort of society in which we live. I am ashamed that my Government have brought this forward. I am even more ashamed that the Liberal Democrats allowed an agreement with the Conservative Party to contain this element. I look forward to hearing an explanation from some noble Lords who stood side by side with me in debates again and again yet who allowed this to happen. However, it has happened and the excuse given to people such as me is that it is all right because it will be used only in extreme cases when probably one would want the information anyway, and we have to understand that we have moved on when it comes to referenda.

I have still to be convinced, and this does not help the convincing. The suggestion is that we reserve the right to have a referendum on something that cannot take powers from this country and give them to the European Union. Later I shall point out that there are many things that we need. I will mention quickly the need for greater European competence in energy, so that the Spanish will be able to feed their energy into the grid and will not be stopped by the French who want to protect their nuclear industry. That needs specific European powers. I can imagine going up and down the country, trying to explain to people why we have to have a referendum on energy moving from Spain to France, because the Government have trapped themselves with the Bill. However, that is for later. Here we are giving the Government powers to ask for a referendum on something that they do not need in the rest of the Bill; it is the most amazing proposal. I will come to my second reason when I have given way to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful to my noble friend—I think I can call her that in relation to that contribution, just on this occasion.

I want to finish by following the point made by my noble friend Lord Tomlinson and asking the Minister to give us a few examples of the kind of things that would be dealt with. I suspect that we will not get many examples or, if we do get any, they will not be very convincing. The Government are reluctant to give us examples because, by giving them, ridicule would be poured on the Government because they are either so irrelevant or so minor.

[Lord Tomlinson]

If we cannot find prospective examples, can the Minister give us some retrospective examples of the things that the Government would have sought the authority in this Bill for?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am really grateful to my noble friend. That is exactly the kind of thing that I was seeking. I know this House, and I have the greatest of respect for the noble Lord, Lord Howell, who I have known for many years and who has been very helpful to me on many occasions. I really feel sorry for him that he has been asked to pilot this Bill through the House. I think it says a great deal for his dedication and his commitment that he is willing and able to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I hear what the noble Lord says. His career and mine have been perfectly different. I am in favour of a certain number of referendums on very important issues. He says that the Bill will allow referendums on trivialities. I do not see that in the Bill at all and I am quite sure that any referendums would be on major matters that would involve the transfer of significant powers to the European Union.

[Lord Tomlinson]

The noble Lord is missing the fundamental point that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is making. We are not discussing all those wider issues; we are discussing referenda that arise from Article 48(6), relating to issues that are already specified as requiring unanimity, with the precondition that there is no further transfer of power. Those are the limited areas that we are discussing.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

It really would be nice if I were allowed to answer one question before I was asked another. I was going to say to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who seems to object to me taking up the issue of referendums, that the whole debate has been about referendums and whether noble Lords agree with them. I am trying to show that referendums are a perfectly legitimate way of testing people’s opinions. We have had lots of referendums. We had them about devolution in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We have had all sorts of referendums and the voices of the people have been heard. We seem to have been having a second Second Reading debate, at least until now. Incidentally, I mentioned the noble Lord, Lord Howell, not because he is a Conservative but merely because, if a party puts forward a policy before the election and tries to carry it out, that is the essence of democracy. It would be undemocratic for a Government not to put that policy into operation.

Allow me to carry on for a moment. I shall not speak at great length, although I should like to. However, we have been considering the amendment for an hour and 36 minutes so far. I want to say this: if we had had a referendum, as promised, on the Lisbon treaty, this Bill would probably not be before Parliament now. It is because so many people were so offended that a referendum on that Bill was not agreed and carried out that we are now seeing a great deal of public anger about the European Union. It is a great pity. When the issue was put to this House and to the House of Commons, the fundamental changes in that Bill were such that it needed the consent of the people. The fact that that was not sought has caused a great deal of difficulty throughout the country. That is why we have this Bill.

I will not go any further. I am sure that the opposition Front Bench will want to say a word, because if I remember rightly it was the noble Baroness who took through the Lisbon treaty. No, it was not; it was the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton. Nevertheless, I know that the noble Baroness will want her say and I am sure that it will be worth hearing. I doubt whether there will be a vote but, if there is, I am afraid that I shall certainly vote against the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Will the noble Lord clarify one point? He said clearly that there was a promise to have a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. That was never the case. The promise was for a referendum on the draft constitution. If the noble Lord has not understood by now the difference between the draft constitution and what became the Lisbon treaty, he does not have the perception that I believe he has on these matters.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

I must say that I read the constitution and the Lisbon treaty and could find no fundamental difference between the two. That is why the people of this country believe that they were cheated when a referendum was not given to them.

--- Later in debate ---

Debate on whether Clause 1 should stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, I hoped not to have to move my opposition to Clause 1 standing part of the Bill. After the persuasive arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I was hoping for a sufficiently clear explanation from the Government to have satisfied me on the point about Article 48(6). However, as we do not seem to have made a great deal of progress on that—I shall not tire the House by going over all the arguments—it is my intention to move that Clause 1 does not stand part of the Bill unless we reach a satisfactory arrangement in relation to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr.

Clause 1 agreed.

European Union Bill

Lord Tomlinson Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the European Union Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 6, Schedule 1, Clauses 7 to 17, Schedule 2, Clauses 18 to 22.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, I raise one small point on this matter. So far on this Bill we have had Second Reading. We have also had the allocated dates for the first and second days of Committee. The date of Second Reading was 23 March and the dates for Committee will be 5 April and 26 April. The one thing that these dates have in common is that they are all Tuesdays and therefore clash with the meeting of the European Union Select Committee of this House. It strikes me as rather absurd that we should discuss the European Union Bill on all three days when it clashes with your Lordships’ European Union Select Committee. I raise no objection to this Motion, but I ask the Leader of the House whether he can look at this and make sure that we do not downgrade the work of the Select Committees in the way that these arrangements do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tomlinson]

Further to that point, if that was widespread concern across the House, perhaps it would have been better raised by someone who was in attendance at the debate.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I was in attendance at the debate and was concerned at the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, was treated. The fact that he was able to take it with his usual good nature should not detract from the fact that some remarks were made in a spiteful way. That is not in accordance with the traditions of the House, and nor should it be. I am sure that the little debate this afternoon will be taken note of, and that future debates on European Union matters will be a little less vicious.

European Union Bill

Lord Tomlinson Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, the test of whether it should be declared is what a reasonable member of the public might think, and I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, has now passed the test.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, can I invite the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, to pass his own test? I once asked him whether he was prepared to declare the interest that he got for forestry land that he owned from the FEOGA—the European Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee Fund. All I got from him was an abusive letter and no declaration of interest. I wonder whether he wants to catch up with us now.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, the noble Lord is coming close to misleading the House. I put the matter straight in a letter to the Guardian newspaper, which had suggested that I had taken this grant. It is not a grant. The noble Lord might like to know that when something goes wrong with a plantation, for instance if it burns down, you have to repay the money or replant the thing at your own expense. He will be delighted to hear that the plantation in question has burnt down and I have had to replace it.

I was suggesting that even noble Lords who have been MEPs might want to mention that experience because it suggests that they may have a better understanding than most of the complicated world of Brussels, but of course it is up to them.

Pope Benedict XVI: State Visit Funding

Lord Tomlinson Excerpts

Thursday 10th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

As I tried to explain to the noble Baroness, it came from the running costs of the department. It does have running costs; and costs contributing to this project, along with all the other departments which contributed, including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, are taken out of the funds that are used for running the department. Other economies might have had to be made in the running of the department, but they are not specified and I cannot give an answer.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Does the noble Lord accept that his reply is misleading to the House? Making a semantic distinction between the running costs of the Department for International Development and official development assistance is quite unacceptable. The administrative costs are there to administer the cost of overseas development, and however welcome was the visit to this country of His Holiness the Pope as a head of state, that can in no way be defined as overseas development.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

The noble Lord is usually right in his interventions, but in this case he is dead wrong. The contributions from DfID and other departments all had their good reasons. It so happens that the Government take the view—and, I suspect, the noble Lord takes the view—that the work of the Catholic Church in health and education overseas reinforces and combines with our work in a most valuable way. I hate to hear any suggestion that it should be downgraded as the noble Lord’s question implied.