Commercial Payments Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd and Lord Fox

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st July 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

I make one brief observation on Amendment 83. When one looks back at the last group of amendments and at this one, one sees that what is happening, in effect, is the creation of an entirely alternate system of dispute resolution—a new form of court or adjudication procedure. It is also apparent from the focus of the debate that this is not easy legislation to follow. I therefore think that, if one is to provide access to justice—that justice now being provided by the Small Business Commissioner—we must put the rights into ordinary language.

As experience showed in the 19th century, when the county courts were created—which had the same idea as all this—once you let lawyers in, you destroy them. It is imperative that lawyers do not become involved because it will destroy the system. It destroyed the county courts and it destroyed workmen’s compensation. Tribunals were created to get away from the lawyers. I will come back to this in a further amendment, but the key is to make procedure and law accessible without lawyers, or this system will not work.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

A lawyer steps up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, I have one or two brief observations in support of the amendments, particularly Amendments 73 and 78 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. First, it is critical that people are given an easy understanding of digital access to the system, but that is said in the context of the more important Amendment 78. I may have been slightly tendentious in what I said about getting lawyers out of the system, but we are likely to see much more being done in the system by artificial intelligence. At the moment, there is not a lot of public confidence in decisions on adjudication, on what are likely to be relatively simple things, being done by machine. However, that is coming. Worldwide—and I really mean worldwide—the courts are very concerned to look at the use of AI in being able to make decisions on a lot of areas.

But it is no use going down that route if there is not the public confidence, and that is why I think Amendment 78 is very important. Unless you are prepared to explain to the public what you are doing and how this is reliable, you will not get there. But I have absolutely no doubt that we are going that way. From looking at what is happening, a little bit in this country but much more elsewhere, we are into the route of AI being used to put arguments to the adjudicator, to respond to them and to distil the arguments into decision-making. It may be that this will produce the return to 1846—that is, the County Courts Act, which was meant to do what this Bill is trying to do now.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, these amendments are very much of the style that I had expected, knowing that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, was involved in the Bill, and he certainly made his arguments. To some extent I think there is a mixed thing here, with some of it mandating tools that the SBC could or should use. I do not think we need primary legislation to mandate that at all. I think the point that the noble and learned Lord made on Amendment 78 was slightly different from the one that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, made. I may have misunderstood. But it is very important to know where AI is being used for decision-making and resolution. I think that was the point that the noble and learned Lord was making, and there I have complete agreement.

The use of distributed ledger is probably a very good idea. Do we need primary legislation to make or advise the SBC to use it? I am not sure. There is a mixed bag here, but the important element is that technology will change how the commissioner will approach her job and she needs to be financially and technically resourced in order to be able to address those changes and, I hope, to be one step ahead of them.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd and Lord Fox

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB)]

My Lords, it is an enormous privilege to have been in a position to add my name to these two amendments and to have listened to the elegant description of the way in which they are meant to work, as explained by my noble and learned friend Lord Hope of Craighead.

I come to them from a slightly different perspective. The new Government have brought into being a desire to make the union work as a union by co-operation between the Governments in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. Looking particularly to Cardiff, one would have hoped that this is an ambition capable of easy realisation. These clauses give one an opportunity to mark that stated aim in very clear terms. It seems to me that if one looks at what the two clauses have brought about, which my noble and learned friend has so elegantly explained, one sees that they touch on areas of devolved competence, without any doubt at all, and there are legislative consent Motions before the respective devolved legislatures.

There are two areas, as my noble and learned friend has explained. One is consultation. I have never understood why across the board in areas such as this consultation is not mandatory. The previous Government were not very good at that; they did not uphold it properly, I regret to say. I hope they will now see a changed way through, and I very much hope this Government will accept the first amendment on consultation. I can see no argument whatever for not accepting that change.

The second area, as my noble and learned friend Lord Hope, explained, is common frameworks. He has explained how it is necessary to make the amendment, but I hope there is also something to the amendment that will breathe life back to common frameworks. It is fairly useful to go back to what was said in the communique issued after the heads of Government meeting in 2017:

“As the UK leaves the European Union, the Government of the United Kingdom and the devolved administrations agree to work together to establish common approaches in some areas that are currently governed by EU law, but that are otherwise within areas of competence of the devolved administrations or legislatures. A framework will set out a common UK, or GB, approach and how it will be operated and governed. This may consist of common goals, minimum or maximum standards, harmonisation, limits on action, or mutual recognition, depending on the policy area and the objectives being pursued. Frameworks may be implemented by legislation, by executive action, by memorandums of understanding, or by other means depending on the context in which the framework is intended to operate”.


Those were lofty ambitions. Regrettably, and it is not the occasion to go into it now, those ambitions were not properly realised. I pay especial tribute to what my noble and learned friend Lord Hope did when the United Kingdom Internal Market Act was promulgated in obtaining the clauses to which he has referred. It was only by his skill, diligence and considerable persistence—I say with respect—that we got these amendments through. Unfortunately, if there is not the spirit of co-operation—I regret that such spirit was not there for a lot of the past two or three years, although it came back towards the end, particularly under Mr Sunak’s Government—we cannot begin to hope for the lofty ambitions of a union where the Governments work together being realised again.

I hope that, because we have referred to common frameworks in this legislation, we will see them coming back. Much has been said about the need for co-operation and working together, but I think these two amendments are important because it is often said that men are judged not merely by words but by deeds—one could put it in a more colloquial phrase. It seems that these two amendments, drafted in the Government’s words, are and ought to be the deeds by which the Government show that they really mean to go ahead and operate on the basis of a union where, in these areas of devolved competence, there is co-operation but within a framework that permits divergence. Therefore, I very much hope that the principle of these amendments will be accepted, because it is so important to the future of the union.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Foster will speak to his Amendment 102 in a few minutes, but it makes sense to follow the noble and learned Lords with my comments on Amendment 47 and the two amendments in my name, Amendments 93 and 96.

It is an enormous pleasure and something of a responsibility to follow two absolutely fantastic speeches on this subject, and I am afraid that my mind did go back to the long nights of the internal market Bill and the tenacity—as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, set out—of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, in bringing his amendments forward, because a really important thing was eventually done there.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, referred to the danger of impinging on the devolved authorities. I will give just one practical example and this is not theoretical, because it is already something that the Welsh Government have raised. In their response, the Welsh Government concluded that

“there are relevant provisions in the Bill which, for the purposes of Standing Order 29, are within the legislative competence of the Senedd and therefore a Legislative Consent Memorandum (LCM) is required”.

I do not think that is disputed by the Government.

For example, the power within Clause 1(1)(a) could be used to reduce or mitigate risks presented by products that endanger the health of a person, distinct and separate from any risks to a person’s safety. The use of “health” in Clause 1(4) broadens the scope of how power could be exercised beyond simple product safety, which is a reserved matter, and enables provision to be made for public health purposes, which is an area within the Senedd’s legislative competence. This is just one example.

In their response document, the Welsh Government raise issues covering product regulations, product requirements, emergencies, information sharing, cost recovery, consequential amendment of certain Acts, interpretation, and the Schedule. Happily, the Welsh Government seem okay with Clauses 5 and 6, but the rest of the Bill forms a grey area around competence and responsibility.