Justification Decision (Generation of Electricity by the EPR Nuclear Reactor) Regulations 2010

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I add my voice in support of these regulations. The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, and I were fortunate to attend a briefing this morning by one of the potential investors that would be building these nuclear power stations. One word came out of that. The noble Lord used it; it is “confidence”. He was talking about the billions of pounds that will be invested in the next generation of nuclear power stations. The investors will have to have confidence at every stage that this is going to go ahead and be successful.

We are discussing these regulations and the order. The whole process of justification has been very elaborate. I have here the justification report on one of the two designs of reactor. This has been a formidable step. The fact that the Secretary of State has now accepted that the justification process has been properly completed and that we now have these statutory instruments is one further step in the confidence of the industry.

This is not the last word: the industries have to continue to get further consents, not least the licensing of the designs through the generic design assessment process. We heard high praise this morning of the work of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate in getting to this stage. There seems to be confidence that this will happen by the due date of July next year. That has to happen, but I say nothing about planning—we are not talking about planning tonight, and that is another stage to be got through.

The industry has been looking for a number of steps to generate confidence. The Secretary of State’s statement last month was a major step along the way. There was no question about that: it made an extremely favourable impression on the industry and its potential investors and the supply chain as well.

Last week I asked a Question about the future of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate and I raised with the Minister who was representing the Department for Work and Pensions—he is responsible for the Health and Safety Executive, and the NII comes under the HSE—that we are still waiting for the decision about the reorganisation and, I hope, the setting up, through a legislative reform order, of a new statutory corporation to take over the functions of the NII. I do not know whether my noble friend can say anything more about that. It is something to which great importance is being attached by the industry, particularly because of the need for the NII to be able to recruit the people with the very scarce experience and skills against a background of a global nuclear renaissance. These people are much in demand and this process, which has been under discussion for some time, is seen by the industry as another important step which, if and when it is achieved, will continue to generate confidence. I hope my noble friend will be able to say something about that, although the actual process—I entirely accept this—is not for his department but for the Department for Work and Pensions. If he can say something that would help this process of confidence, to which I have referred, I would be extremely grateful.

Like the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, I too have an engagement. I hope I can stay until the end, but I offer my apologies to the House if I cannot.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I have never felt such pressure to make a short speech, so I will see if I can do it. I thank my noble friend for his usual panache in introducing the subject. One of the things that strikes me while reading through these statutory instruments is that we have, once again, a problem of opaqueness with respect to this industry and sector. They are among the few SIs I have read in which, even after reading the Explanatory Memorandums, it is quite difficult to really get to the depths of what they are trying to say. No doubt we can blame that on EURATOM regulations or whatever. In terms of designated technical matters, this sounds innocuous but is obviously crucial to these documents and the meaning of “justification” is rather different from what I have known before. In particular, we talk about approval, but neither of these reactors is approved at all. This is just the start of the process and there is much more to go on further. I was particularly interested that in the justification SIs we have two useful definitions—on intermediate-level waste and on spent fuel—but they are never referred to in the documents. That is slightly strange.

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[Lord Marland]

My Lords, I am very grateful to everyone who has spoken. This is a great day for the nuclear industry, and I am delighted. Unfortunately, everyone who has spoken seems to have left, which says a lot for my winding-up speech. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for sitting there and listening to what I have to say. Perhaps she can report it accordingly. It is a great day for the nuclear industry, and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, who is a terrific exponent as chairman of the NIA, for his kind words in saying that it is a great day. I think this clearly sends confidence to the industry that we are determined to get the nuclear show on the road. We have had 13 years without the nuclear show on the road. I am grateful to the previous Government for helping to change public opinion, but we have had no activity, and we now have activity. As always, the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, makes good points in everything he says on this issue, because he is an expert. He is a pleasure to work with on this subject. He makes good points about waste, the economic benefit perhaps of economies of scale working with government and with civil waste, and I take those messages on board. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, again talks about confidence. The first two statutory instruments clearly demonstrate that there is confidence and that we are going down the road for it. Both he and the noble Baroness have asked questions on the subject of the NII. I take on board her comments, asking us to get on with sending a clear route map of what we need to do. The Government have been considering two options for the reform of nuclear regulation, as was said at Question Time last week—a discrete agency within the HSE or a stand-alone, statutory corporation. This is a discussion between two departments, and I assure the noble Baroness that we are pushing very hard for a conclusion on it.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, made a series of excellent points, as always. He talked about spent fuel and the levels of waste not being defined. They are defined in the regulations, in the companion instrument to this order, and I should be happy to have my staff take him through those pages, because I shall not be able to do it myself.

[Lord Teverson]

I hope the noble Lord does not mind if I decline that particular offer, certainly this evening.

[Lord Marland]

It is all very well the noble Lord asking questions, but he should know the answer to them.

One question is why we should designate interim stores. Operators must provide for interim stores during the life of a station and it is essential to ensure that the money is set aside. I was asked whether the funds were secure. Yes, there is protection in the funded decommissioning programme and in the Act itself. Funds must be remote from the operation of the Government. Neither party, including the Treasury, can get its hands on it. That was the concern.

The two reactors are hybrids and based on the foundation of reactors already in use. Obviously, they are not the same, because the people who make them are continually trying to improve on them and technology is moving forward on that. The noble Lord asked whether other reactors would require approval. Of course they would—as, indeed, would a Mox plant, as it does not fit within this legislation.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, very much for her co-operation in this particular SI. She let me know in advance about some of the matters of concern affecting her Benches, and I am grateful for that level of co-operation. We are trying to build a consensus and get the ball rolling as quickly as we can, and it is very welcome that on all sides of the House we seem to have a common theme. I thank her very much for that.

The noble Baroness asked whether we have considered whether there should have been an inquiry. Over three years we have had the three consultation processes that her own Government instigated, which I think is pretty exhaustive in the current circumstances. She asked whether we were on track; we are, and we have published the timetable on the DECC website. If she has time available, we would be happy to show her how to get on to it. We can keep her posted through that means.

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[Lord Marland]

If I understand the noble Baroness correctly, the cost for provision for waste falls on the operator, who has to—as I have answered the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—provide funds at all stages of the decommissioning. That includes storage and the final decommissioning. They are fully aware of it. Clearly, we have not got to where we are now without consultation with all the operators. They understand the rules of engagement—I am not going to say they are happy with them, as I cannot immediately tell you that—and these rules are the way we are intending to proceed.

I hope the noble Baroness feels that I have answered the majority of her questions, if not all of them. As always, it is good to have a lot of questions as this is an important step change that we are making for the future of the nuclear industry.

[Lord Teverson]

I think my noble friend may be about to move off the questions. I did ask about these types of approvals in other European member states and how they had seen these reactors. I should have given the Minister notice of that question and I apologise that I did not. If he could write to me with any information on that I would much appreciate it.

[Lord Marland]

I felt that I had answered the noble Lord’s questions. These are obviously hybrids and there are similar types of reactors in Finland and France, which form the basis of these operations. If he feels that is not an adequate answer, however, I shall write to him later on the subject, if I may.

We face major changes in moving to a low-carbon economy. There is an urgent need for a diverse range of new energy infrastructure with a massive expansion in renewables, as well as more new nuclear, clean coal and gas. All of this will help us to reinforce our domestic security of supply. Regulatory justification is one of the facilitative actions necessary to enable new nuclear power stations to be built in the UK. It requires an assessment of whether the benefits of building these nuclear reactors in the UK outweigh the radiological health detriment that they may cause.

These instruments give effect to our decisions that the benefits, including the contribution which new nuclear power stations can make to ensuring secure, low-carbon energy supplies, outweigh the detriments. For that reason, they are very important measures. The provisions in the draft Nuclear Decommissioning and Waste Handling (Designated Technical Matters) Order 2010 are an important part of the statutory framework for the financing of nuclear waste and decommissioning, and another of the facilitative actions necessary to enable new power stations to be built in the UK. I commend these regulations to the House.