Justification Decision (Generation of Electricity by the EPR Nuclear Reactor) Regulations 2010

Lord Jenkin of Roding Excerpts

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I start by declaring an interest as chairman of the Nuclear Industry Association. I do so for a number of reasons, not least because the NIA undertook the drafting of the justification report on which these statutory instruments are based. It was a lengthy process. Indeed, some of us thought that we would never see the end of it—first, in getting the reports right and, secondly, in terms of ministerial overview and the preparation of the SIs which we are debating today. It is fair to say that this is of critical importance to the realisation of the new nuclear build programme.

There are various elements. One could say that the building blocks, or the foundations, involve more than just the justification process in respect of the Areva and Westinghouse reactors. These reactors will also be subject to the rigorous generic design assessment programme being undertaken by the health and safety regulator and the Environment Agency. But these are of a different order, being almost exclusively technical in character and they do not concern us today. We have to satisfy ourselves and the country that the kit we are going to use is of a quality that can allay the fears of people in the UK. We have to recognise that there is not unanimity on the issue of nuclear power. There is certainly now, I think, what could be called a working majority and the consensus is probably a wee bit more robust than some of the elements within the coalition, but in order to reinforce and develop this consensus, we have to deal with the broad issue of the environmental concerns of the EU.

We have ceded to Brussels—probably correctly—a number of responsibilities in relation to environmental matters. I may be wrong, but I think that, apart from the reactor at one of London’s universities, the nearest one to London is in France, so it is only appropriate that we are subject to rather broad environmental legislation which covers the continent and not just this island.

In considering the process of preparing the report it would be wrong of me not to pay tribute to the work of Peter Haslam on behalf of the Nuclear Industry Association and its members. He had the responsibility of herding the cats into the bag and it was not always easy getting the various players around the table, but consensus was established, agreement was reached, the document was prepared and it is in no small way due to the efforts of Peter Haslam.

We have to be careful, not only about the issue of building a consensus of tolerance of and support for nuclear power, but about taking account of the fact that there are those who are quite happy—with other people’s money, usually—to seek access to the courts to have judicial review and things like that. It may well be that this will be the subject of a judicial review. I hope not and, indeed, I think that one way to ensure public confidence is that when those who are against nuclear power—they are perfectly entitled to be so— take the advice of their learned friends, they get the message that this document stands up to close scrutiny. The Minister and many of us across the House feel that to have got to this stage and to have these statutory instruments being discussed is evidence of our confidence in the robustness of the documents and, as time will go on, of the robustness of the case for nuclear power.

It is fair to say that issues relating to waste and decommissioning are worries. There is sometimes a wilful ignorance of the fact that other countries have accommodated waste, are treating it and dealing with it in a way which has, by and large, allayed public anxieties within those countries. We can look to Finland and Sweden. In Sweden, there has always been an anxiety about nuclear power, but there has not been the concern about storage, because Sweden has got on with the job. The funding of decommissioning and the treatment of waste and its storage are paramount and people have to be reassured that that part of it that has been created by private industry will be paid for by private industry. I make that distinction at this point because a lot of the waste that we have was created by nationalised industries and therefore is the responsibility of government. That part of the deal is not a subsidy but is the public purse meeting its historical responsibilities.

My second point is that not all of the waste is civil in character. It is waste that has come about as a result of the various forms of nuclear deterrent we have had. That again is a responsibility of the state. That is not a subsidy. It may well be that in putting together the three elements—the privatised waste, if I can call it that, the nationalised waste and the military waste—we create economies of scale that make the job that bit easier because the volumes will be such that critical mass will be created and we will be able to do it more cheaply, but that is not to suggest that we are talking about subsidies of one against the other.

It is important that these statutory instruments are dealt with today and that they get the support of the House. The industry can stand up to the challenge, “Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they?”. It does not want to be an unsafe industry. That is one argument, but the other argument, which is far more compelling, is that if these private companies do not get it right, it will perhaps cost people their lives, but it will certainly cost their shareholders a hell of a lot of money. Therefore, we realise the significance of the investments, the dangers of the materials that are being used and the problems that could be created if the reactors are not satisfactory. All these issues are being considered. Once we have this element out of the way, get the generic design assessment process completed and eventually get the planning applications going to the IPC in whatever form it finally emerges, we will be in a position to start building the nuclear power stations.

At the end of the day, even if we build no more nuclear power stations in this country, we will still have to decommission the existing facilities and handle the waste, so the three statutory instruments are relevant this evening. It is important that they are given the best support that the House can give them. I do not anticipate there being a vote as that is not our custom.

I have a commitment this evening so I have to leave the House and will not be here for the wind-ups. No discourtesy is intended. I was going to send the Minister a letter, but I thought that since there are not many people here I could just say it entre nous, as it were. It is important for the industry that we get this cleared out of the way. It is one of the important building blocks. It has been not tiresome, but time-consuming, and it is a necessity that no one would shirk from recognising has been central to the development of the nuclear industry and its regeneration in this country.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I add my voice in support of these regulations. The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, and I were fortunate to attend a briefing this morning by one of the potential investors that would be building these nuclear power stations. One word came out of that. The noble Lord used it; it is “confidence”. He was talking about the billions of pounds that will be invested in the next generation of nuclear power stations. The investors will have to have confidence at every stage that this is going to go ahead and be successful.

We are discussing these regulations and the order. The whole process of justification has been very elaborate. I have here the justification report on one of the two designs of reactor. This has been a formidable step. The fact that the Secretary of State has now accepted that the justification process has been properly completed and that we now have these statutory instruments is one further step in the confidence of the industry.

This is not the last word: the industries have to continue to get further consents, not least the licensing of the designs through the generic design assessment process. We heard high praise this morning of the work of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate in getting to this stage. There seems to be confidence that this will happen by the due date of July next year. That has to happen, but I say nothing about planning—we are not talking about planning tonight, and that is another stage to be got through.

The industry has been looking for a number of steps to generate confidence. The Secretary of State’s statement last month was a major step along the way. There was no question about that: it made an extremely favourable impression on the industry and its potential investors and the supply chain as well.

Last week I asked a Question about the future of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate and I raised with the Minister who was representing the Department for Work and Pensions—he is responsible for the Health and Safety Executive, and the NII comes under the HSE—that we are still waiting for the decision about the reorganisation and, I hope, the setting up, through a legislative reform order, of a new statutory corporation to take over the functions of the NII. I do not know whether my noble friend can say anything more about that. It is something to which great importance is being attached by the industry, particularly because of the need for the NII to be able to recruit the people with the very scarce experience and skills against a background of a global nuclear renaissance. These people are much in demand and this process, which has been under discussion for some time, is seen by the industry as another important step which, if and when it is achieved, will continue to generate confidence. I hope my noble friend will be able to say something about that, although the actual process—I entirely accept this—is not for his department but for the Department for Work and Pensions. If he can say something that would help this process of confidence, to which I have referred, I would be extremely grateful.

Like the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, I too have an engagement. I hope I can stay until the end, but I offer my apologies to the House if I cannot.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, I have never felt such pressure to make a short speech, so I will see if I can do it. I thank my noble friend for his usual panache in introducing the subject. One of the things that strikes me while reading through these statutory instruments is that we have, once again, a problem of opaqueness with respect to this industry and sector. They are among the few SIs I have read in which, even after reading the Explanatory Memorandums, it is quite difficult to really get to the depths of what they are trying to say. No doubt we can blame that on EURATOM regulations or whatever. In terms of designated technical matters, this sounds innocuous but is obviously crucial to these documents and the meaning of “justification” is rather different from what I have known before. In particular, we talk about approval, but neither of these reactors is approved at all. This is just the start of the process and there is much more to go on further. I was particularly interested that in the justification SIs we have two useful definitions—on intermediate-level waste and on spent fuel—but they are never referred to in the documents. That is slightly strange.