European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Teverson Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Monday 13th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I will make some short comments on a number of issues but, first, I must congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the staff of the EU Committee on having put together an extremely authoritative and objective report on the withdrawal agreement and the future relationship. I urge noble Lords who have not read it to do so.

One thing that came out of it really struck me. I have not been much involved in the Northern Ireland aspects of withdrawal, but it is quite clear that Northern Ireland will be separate from the rest of Great Britain. I hear the Minister say that the manifesto says, and the Prime Minister has assured us, that that is not the case—but he has already signed the deal and the division down the Irish Sea is there. I was there when the civil servants corrected the Secretary of State and said that paperwork would be necessary. No wonder the Northern Ireland parties are particularly upset about that. Having said that—I always try to be positive—I very much welcome the fact that there will continue to be a single energy market within the island of Ireland, which I understand is in the agreement.

What really surprises me about this agreement is something that we have debated a number of times—that we will put into legislation the fact that we will not extend the interim period. It is quite obvious that we are putting ourselves in exactly the same situation as we did when we invoked Article 50 without a plan. We immediately put the power into the other party, the European Union. At that time, they must have said, “Yippee, everything is on our side”—and that will be the case this time. We have given away our flexibility and set a deadline that can only work against us. I do not understand that. I was interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Butler, praise the Prime Minister for having got a new deal when it was predicted that he would not get one so quickly. The reason was that he accepted a deal that was already on the table from the European Union some years before—with its preferences. So are we going to have another repeat of history?

One area that particularly concerns me is fisheries—an area that I have been involved in both through committee work and in relation to regulation when I was in the European Parliament. I come from the south-west; big promises have been made to the fishing industry. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others have mentioned this subject. Yet, to me, the fact that we are expected to conclude a fisheries agreement in July this year, with a deadline for overall agreement not long after, means that the two are absolutely and inevitably entwined. There will be either trade-off or submission. I suspect that my fisheries colleagues down in the south-west already expect to be sold out, as they have been in the past. How will the Government ensure that that will not happen to the industry this time?

I will say one thing quickly about the chemicals industry. My committee, the EU Environment and Energy Sub-Committee, looked at REACH and all of that side. Given the Minister’s bird’s-eye view of the silos that sometimes occur in Whitehall, will he make sure through Defra and BEIS, which both have responsibility for the industry—Defra in terms of regulations and the REACH chemical regulations—that that industry, the second-largest manufacturing industry in the United Kingdom, is treated very carefully in terms of regulation? There is still great concern in that area.

Lastly, I will refer to Part 3 of the withdrawal Bill, which is around citizens. But there is not one clause in there about UK citizens; it is all about EU 27 citizens. I welcome most of that, but one of the biggest failures of the Government is that UK citizens in the 27 do not have freedom of movement. That right is kept within individual member states, and to me that is a major failure of negotiation. I want to see UK citizens recognised in this Bill, and not sold out as they have been so far.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued) & Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, very briefly, I want to add my support to the thrust of these amendments. I express sympathy with my noble friend the Minister. I suspect that, having listened to the arguments around the House, he would very much welcome the opportunity to try to keep to the manifesto commitments, which were so ably outlined by the noble Lord, and recognise the will of the people of Northern Ireland, who, as we have heard from across the House, support the thrust of these amendments, so brilliantly moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hain.

This does not delay the legislation but is about damage limitation. I implore my noble friend to take this back to the department and champion this House’s role of ensuring that the other place properly considers the implications of what is being proposed in this legislation. From looking at the debates in the other place, I do not believe that the sentiments expressed across this House and the wisdom that we have heard this evening were fully reflected there.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, the EU committee of which I am a member has spent a lot of time on Northern Ireland issues. Although I do not visit the Province regularly, I used to do business there and greatly enjoyed it; it is a fantastic part of the United Kingdom.

What really worries me goes back to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord McCrea: this denial by the Prime Minister that there is any problem here, when clearly there is. Yes, we have it in the protocol that the Province is to be part of the UK customs territory—but in reality it is part of the single market and the European customs union. It is de jure part of the UK and de facto part of the EU in terms of its economy.

The recent report by the EU committee stated:

“Notwithstanding the statement in Article 4 of the protocol that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the UK, the practical implication of the protocol’s provisions on customs will be the introduction of a regulatory border for goods travelling from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. The introduction of such a border within the UK will have financial and political consequences”—


which is probably an understatement.

I was in the EU committee when the current Secretary of State for Brexit, Stephen Barclay, said, on the advice of his senior civil servants, that there would indeed be that border down the Irish Sea, and that there would be documentation; it would not be frictionless. So I find it very difficult to understand why we have this very trite statement, as always, by the Prime Minister, when that is not the case.

To emphasise what the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, said, I will quote what has been said today by the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator, Michel Barnier. He stated that the protocol on Northern Ireland outlined in the withdrawal agreement means that checks on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland would have to be in place. He said:

“The implementation of this agreement foresees checks and controls entering the island of Ireland. I look forward to constructive co-operation with the British authorities to ensure that all provisions are respected and made operational.”


We have not heard a great deal from the European Union on this issue. I suspect that it is very wary about entering the politics of Northern Ireland. But that silence has now broken, and it is very firm. So it would show respect to the Province if the Government could be honest about what is foreseen.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, I very much support the amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I am very grateful for the detailed way in which he explained them. It could not be clearer; he covered pretty much every aspect. This has been reinforced by everybody else who has spoken. It is difficult to avoid the reality.

Let me first address the political dilemma. The Government have had an election, they have a majority of 80 and they can do what they wish in the House of Commons; we know that. The Minister has effectively got instructions that all amendments must be resisted. However, the Prime Minister’s personal reputation and integrity rest on this issue. He has explicitly said that there will be no checks—and in a sense, these amendments are trying to put into law the Prime Minister’s promise of what the protocol would mean. We all know the difficulty is that any analysis of the protocol does not square with the promise—unless the Prime Minister has got some way of explaining that which none of us has yet come across.

A useful analysis of the protocol has been produced by the Institute for Government, which makes it clear that the protocol means that while Northern Ireland will remain part of the customs territory of the UK, customs checks and controls will apply for goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland because that ensures that customs checks or controls are not required between Northern Ireland and the Republic. That is the essence of the protocol in a nutshell.

The consequences of that, therefore, are that not only will there be checks but that exports into Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK will be subject both to customs checks and, potentially, tariffs. There is an argument that these tariffs could be reimbursable, but that immediately introduces a bureaucracy of having to regulate them, and apply, and when and how long that takes. So let us be honest; we are facing a dilemma.

As has been said, the Northern Ireland economy is one of small businesses and is vulnerable and fragile. For many of those businesses, the practicalities of dealing with this could be life-threatening and could effectively destroy their viability. Indeed, one begins to wonder how the pattern of trade might change, inasmuch as businesses in Northern Ireland may find that trading with the mainland of the UK is just too difficult; and, indeed, businesses on the mainland of the UK may decide that Northern Ireland is too much trouble. Somebody trying to order something online through Amazon may find that it does not supply Northern Ireland, or will only supply it at a premium, or will charge a tariff which may or may not be reimbursable. These are the kinds of complexities that we are facing and envisaging, and everybody who has spoken recognises that to be the case—and I think it is reasonable.

I do not envy the Minister’s position, but I would love him to have a conversation with the Prime Minister and say, “Prime Minister, you have categorically stated that there will be no checks or tariffs. It would be helpful if everybody else in the Government could have it explained to them how this is going to be achieved, because I have not come across anyone who yet knows how it can be done”. So the amendments are well-intentioned and constructive. They are about saying, “We have a promise and this is how it should be delivered.”

Given the Benches I am speaking from, I should make it clear that I accept that we are leaving the European Union at the end of January and that the Bill needs to be passed in good time and in good order. I certainly do not regard this as anything other than a genuine recognition of a crucial issue that needs to be addressed on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. I do not have to repeat, but I will, that it has cross-party, business, and community support—literally, unanimity—across the entire Province that says, “Please help us through this dilemma.” I hope that the Government will recognise that they have an obligation to do so.

Perhaps I might raise one other slightly unrelated issue in relation to these clauses. The commitment to non-diminution of rights within the agreement is enshrined in Northern Ireland legislation—in other words, it applies to it—but there has been some concern, particularly in the debates we have already had about Henry VIII clauses and other clauses, that this does not apply to any other legislation passed by the United Kingdom Government. Does the Minister accept that if the UK Government can amend aspects of legislation in Northern Ireland—or, for that matter, elsewhere, but Northern Ireland in this context—the non-diminution of rights would be meaningless if UK law could compromise that and only Northern Ireland law is protected? I hope I have made myself clear and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on that.

In conclusion, the Minister can be in no doubt about the feeling across the House. I have said, both publicly and privately to the Minister, that his engagement on these and all other issues is warmly admired and respected—there is no question about that. His commitment and sincerity in wanting to get the right results is not in doubt or in question, but he is defending a difficulty here on behalf of the Government.

He has between now and next week. It is probably a forlorn hope, but I think he should have a conversation with the usual channels and the Government to say that this issue is really causing a great deal of fractious difficulty and the Government need to show in very real terms that they are going to address it. If they could in some way or other accept these amendments or bring forward a government amendment that followed that through, a lot of mistrust might be evaporated and the situation might be regarded as one in which the Government have demonstrated a genuine determination to get to the right place, which is unfettered access.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Yes, I am content to put in a letter the elements I have set out today, with the appropriate detail and clarity which I may have lacked in my explanation this evening, so that the Committee can see exactly what I seek to put on the record. I am occasionally guilty of being expansive—I know that my Chief Whip looks daggers at me occasionally—but I am happy to put that down in a letter in appropriate time, so that the Committee can consider it and make sure that there is no dubiety in what I seek to put forward. I am happy to give that commitment and I will ensure that it is there in good time.

Again, I bring myself back to the important point: I believe that we seek the same outcome, which is to secure Northern Ireland’s place within the family of nations that is the United Kingdom, and to ensure that there are no impediments to the trade within the Province of Northern Ireland as it seeks to trade within its important relationships with the rest of the UK. On that point, I am sorry that I am not able to give more positive support, but I will do all I can in the next few days to set out in writing the Government’s position.

[Lord Teverson]

For simple clarity, can the Minister confirm whether he agrees with Monsieur Barnier in his analysis?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Having been a Member of the European Parliament, I know that one of the challenges is that Commission officials can sometimes be too expansive in the way that they express themselves, for purposes that are not always clear. I am afraid that I do not know exactly why Monsieur Barnier said what he did but he may well fit into that category. I am also conscious that I did not answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. If he will forgive me, I will write to him, and on that point, I conclude my remarks.

European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Lord Teverson Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I very much support Amendment 37, tabled by my noble friends, but I want to talk to Amendment 44, which is in my name and in this group. It concerns retaining European citizenship for UK nationals. I do not expect this provision to appear in the final version of the Bill when it becomes an Act, as in a way this is a probing amendment, but it is of huge importance and something that many people feel strongly about.

I remind the House of the privileges that come with European citizenship. We know about the freedom of movement, which is often discussed, but there is also the freedom to establish a business. There is the freedom to carry on your education in the whole of the European Union, and there is the freedom of being able to buy property without permit within the European Union. On the health side, we have our European health cards. We also have consular protection from other EU member states, should we need it. We have visa-free travel in 153 other nations. We have no customs queues as we come into the then-to-be 27 member states and, of course, we have voting rights in a number of elections. Those are fundamental rights that we have had as European citizens and that we will lose as UK citizens once we leave the European Union, which we will do on 31 January.

By an accident of birth in the 19th century, I am able to retain my European citizenship, as I think a number of Members of the House are through various other historic reasons. But that ability is entirely random and not available to the vast majority of our citizens who wish to do that. I recognise entirely, as the constitutionalists will say, that it is generally agreed that it would require a treaty change for full European citizenship to be bestowed upon UK citizens once we are a third country. However, there are perhaps alternatives to that, such as associate citizenship, and there is a will among certain European institutions to allow it or to find a way for it to move forward over time, once we have left.

I thank the Government in that, when I have raised this in the past, they have been very open and said, “It’s not within our power as such, but if that offer came to the United Kingdom then we would not necessarily shy away from it”. I congratulate the Government on that quite brave statement, and I hope that they will continue to have that attitude in future. I also think, perhaps strangely and counterintuitively, that if a way were to be found for some form of associate citizenship, it could be one way in which the country could come back together again, because it would clearly not be compulsory. Those who do not want their European citizenship—I recognise that, for many years, many people have treated that status with disdain and have said they do not want it—can keep that “non-citizenship”. Only those who want to volunteer for this citizen status need take up the offer.

This is perhaps a way forward; it is one method by which the country could come together, so that people feel that they have not lost all of those rights that are so important to them. Yet those people who feel strongly, and who were the majority in the referendum who wanted to exit their citizenship, will indeed still be in that position. I would like to hear from the Minister that this is something on which the Government will keep their mind open, should such an approach ever come from the European institutions—many of us may continue to encourage that.

[Baroness Buscombe (Con)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, can he tell me: do you have to pay tax in any EU country in order to obtain EU citizenship?

[Lord Teverson]

Well, at the moment, you are automatically a European citizen if you are a national citizen of one of the member states, so your tax position is no different to your position as a national. You are subject as an individual to the treaties and the book of law of the EU and its member states, so I do not see that it makes any difference. If you become an associate citizen, then clearly it will depend on the details of that associate citizenship.

[Baroness Buscombe]

So the answer is that you do not necessarily have to pay tax in any EU country in order to obtain that citizenship. You could be claiming benefits in—or, in other words, not contributing to—any one of those countries.

[Lord Teverson]

No, it just stays as it is.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, on shining a light on this particular difficult policy area. I follow on from the remarks made by my noble friend Lady Altmann, but on a slightly different question, regarding a case study with which I am all too familiar because it concerns my own pension, so I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for raising this.

One area of EU law that has long concerned me is the free movement of pensions and that the pension to which one contributes while living and earning money in another EU member state should be recognised when one returns to the UK. In my case, I remember only too well that I contributed on two occasions, once as an employee and once as a self-employed independent lawyer. On one of those occasions, my contribution was taken and has simply not been recognised. I am sure that this is a common problem; I cannot believe that it applies only to me.

I am in a privileged position as regards my pension, other than the fact that I am told I cannot take my state pension until a slightly later year than I was expecting. When summing up on this small group of amendments, can my noble friend give the House assurance that, where an individual of whatever nationality —British, in my particular case—has contributed to a pension scheme in, for example, Belgium, France, Germany or Denmark and at some future date wishes to return to the United Kingdom, there is a guarantee that their pension will be recognised and will be paid as part of either a private or occupational or state pension at the time of retirement?