Deregulation Bill

Lord Stoneham of Droxford Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth]

My Lords, with your indulgence, perhaps I may correct something: I omitted earlier to declare an interest as an occasional documentary maker for BBC Four. I should also record that there is a bigger audience in this Room than I normally get.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

I think most noble Lords who have severe concerns about this clause fear that it stems from some underhand undermining of the BBC by its enemies, and to appease Back-Bench interests. I hope, from what the Minister said earlier, that he can give us full assurances on that: that the national institution that is the BBC, which has wide public appeal and respect, is not going to be foolishly undermined by an inappropriate, hurried action.

Everybody who likes institutions such as the BBC, and who supports the BBC strongly, is in favour of reforming and improving it, because that will keep it and what it does in the public’s favour. We should not be frightened of change, but that change must be considered and phased, and we must stand up for what was originally agreed in the settlement: namely, that there would be no change until 2016-17. If it is done in a considered way, we support it. However, it must not be done in an underhand way.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, almost before opening my mouth I must declare an interest, having been for many years—more than I care to think of—a broadcaster for the BBC, both on the staff and as a freelancer.

The points being made are important. When we talked about the arts in your Lordships’ House recently, the Government, it seemed to me, were very open to the concept that people need to know their budgets before they forward-plan. At a time when the charter review is coming up and the BBC accepts that there are many problems with the licence fee and current funding and is trying to deal with that, to cut the ground from under it before the charter is properly considered would be very dangerous.

From my own experience, the cuts within the BBC—particularly the cuts to Radio 3—have been draconian. Many people have been laid off; programme budgets have been cut. One of the things I find strange about this is that I subscribe to Sky—I enjoy it; I sometimes watch the BBC on Sky—but for my Sky package, which includes sport, I pay about £46 a month. For the BBC I pay £12 a month. That is a quite extraordinary disparity and it is worth thinking about it. For what the BBC provides—the Proms, the culture, the natural history, sport, Wimbledon: all things for which they are in competition with Sky—the figures hardly stack up. To add this additional burden would be rather irresponsible. I therefore beg the Government to consider delaying. It is not asking an awful lot—not to cancel, just to delay.

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Moved by

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

79: After Clause 60, insert the following new Clause—
“Busking deregulation
(1) Omit paragraph 14 of section 54 of the Metropolitan Police Act 1839.
(2) Omit sections 32 to 44 of the London Local Authorities Act 2000.”

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

I rise in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, who is unable to be with us today. I thought it might be appropriate to provide some musical accompaniment to this debate, but unfortunately I lack the skills to do that and speak at the same time.

Busking is an essential element of street culture in London and many cities. It is often the start of a major career. Eddie Izzard, for example, famously started his career on the streets of Covent Garden. As a leading busking campaigner, Nick Broad, once said:

“Street performance is one of the most noble ways that artists can earn a living: performance first, pay later, and only if you enjoyed the show. Making tips as a busker is a great alternative to making tips as a waiter or bartender: you get to practise, reach an audience and learn what people like about your show while earning a living. No managers. No PR. No cult of celebrity. No Facebook popularity contest. No latest gig app. No entrance fees. No service charges. No security guards or fences. No clever lighting. No razzle-dazzle. No fancy brochures or billboards. No sponsorship deals. No product placements. No middlemen. Just an artist and their audience”.

Live music and street entertainment can enrich a community’s quality of life and generate a positive atmosphere that can be enjoyed by many people. The Mayor of London, too, has rightly been fulsome about the place of busking in London life. Following the work of the mayor’s busking task force, the mayor has approved the creation of Busk in London and provided start-up funding. Together with more enlightened London authorities and busking campaigners, we are well on the way to agreeing a new busking code as a way forward in London, building on the experience in Liverpool. The aim is to implement the busking code of conduct in agreement with the London boroughs and other cities across the UK, to create an interactive map of London’s busker-friendly locations, to pilot the website and to secure continuing funding and sponsorship over the coming six months.

Despite this, not everyone is supportive. There remain great threats from inappropriate use of existing legislation. Therefore, this amendment is explicitly designed to remove Part V of the London Local Authorities Act 2000, which provides for busking licensing schemes at individual London councils’ discretion, so that the licensing of busking under that Act by a growing number of London councils is no longer allowed, and the conflict with the Live Music Act’s provisions on the playing of unamplified music in London is ended.

Camden, under the London Local Authorities Act, has banned street music at any time, amplified or unamplified, except through a special busking licence. The breach carries a fine of up to £1,000. Camden’s approach runs counter to the arguments heard and accepted by government and Parliament during the Live Music Act debates.

We should also remove Section 54(14) of the Metropolitan Police Act of 1839, which was recently used against buskers in Leicester Square. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has explained that the King’s Parade, the winners of the mayor’s busking competition, were interrupted by the police mid-song as they performed in Leicester Square and informed that they were in breach of Section 54 of the archaic 1839 Metropolitan Police Act. They were bundled into a van by eight officers and held at Paddington police station for more than six hours. This 174 year-old piece of legislation—which, incidentally, also prohibits kite flying, sleigh riding, doorbell ringing without excuse, causing mischief to cattle, rolling hoops on footways and distributing profane songs—was used to justify the arrest.

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[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

I thank the Minister for his support for busking. I also liked the unexpected but welcome support from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and my noble friends Lord Paddick and Lord Deben. Police never willingly give up any powers, and it is a matter for politicians, not the police, to balance freedom and law enforcement. I will withdraw the amendment, but I am sure that my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones will want to return to this at some stage, either in this legislation or in future.

Amendment 79 withdrawn.

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[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

My Lords, the main arguments have been made in favour of these amendments but I have just one or two points to make. We have to remember how the growth of pay TV is such that its revenues now hugely exceed those of our public service broadcasters. Sky TV’s revenues are more than twice the BBC’s, which gives it huge power. The Government are considering a review of licence fee collection, but are not prepared to accept some changes to this Bill along the lines of this amendment. Why on earth are they not prepared to have a review or consultation on the proposals which stand in this amendment—and the sooner the better?

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I believe that my noble friend will realise that my earlier intervention had a degree of mischievousness to it, as I had come in specifically to address this particular amendment. I do so for three reasons. First, sometimes we on this side of the House have been disappointed with the Deregulation Bill, because quite a number of things have been deregulated that really do not seem to have been very important. There has been a tendency to add up the number of things that we have got rid of. On one occasion my noble friend had to justify the removal of a statutory right from someone who was still able to exercise it voluntarily—not, I thought, one of the biggest things that we have ever done in government. I am particularly concerned that when we have an opportunity to make a change that is really worth while, we should do it.

The second reason for my concern is that sometimes one of the ways you can judge the validity of a proposition is to see who opposes it. For much of the time in my period in the House of Commons, there were one or two Members on my own side from whom, when I knew they were in favour of something, I was almost automatically on the other side. I believe that that is true of both sides of the House: we all have bellwethers, who are always extremely useful if we have not quite grasped what is behind the issue. My noble friend’s characterisation of the dual position of Fox News is one that deserves considerable investigation. The reason that people do not want that is because they make money out of it. We therefore have to ask ourselves some very simple questions. Should they make money out of it? Is it in the public interest that they make money out of it? Is it money that could be better spent somewhere else?

That brings me to my third point. Torn aside from all the history, the phrases, the arguments and the discussions, this is a simple matter. We once had a different system, and we had different rules to deal with that system. The system has changed but the rules have not. Would it not be sensible to change the rules now that the system has changed? If there is a big reason for deregulation, and there are several, the biggest of all is that many Administrations suffer from the inability to get rid of good things when they become bad. You can go round the whole Continent of Europe and find all sorts of bits of regulation that were frightfully good at the time when they were put forward but which now get in the way of trade, make it more difficult for people to innovate, and distort the market.

I am not always known for my upholding of the free and unfettered market, mainly because most markets are neither free nor unfettered. However, I wish to say that here there is an obvious way in which a Conservative-led coalition can make the market freer. In those circumstances, seeing as it appears to have the support of the Opposition as well as that of its coalition partners, there is not much reason for saying that this is not a sensible amendment. I therefore hope that my noble friend will find it possible, if not to give way on this occasion, at least to indicate that he has every intention of giving way at a more amenable moment, but before the Bill passes.