Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Skelmersdale Excerpts

Monday 21st November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I rise to speak very briefly in support of these amendments so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Touhig. Many of the arguments that underpin these amendments have already been rehearsed in the previous debate, so I will not take too much time.

It seems sensible to have an equal-handed approach to these circumstances. If someone has a condition that is palpably for life, the guidance should be that the benefit should run for life. Equally, in those circumstances where there may be doubt, there needs to be flexibility. What is needed, perhaps on the face of the Bill as these amendments propose, is that there are guidelines that take those two sets of circumstances properly into account. The system itself must be willing to respond to the individual circumstances rather than just follow a dogma about restricting benefits even where benefits are probably much needed.

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, I am not sure whether I ought to declare an interest, but I will do so nevertheless. My daughter is a research biochemist at the University of Sheffield where she works in a cancer laboratory. Her objective, as it currently stands, is to starve cancer cells of blood—something that other researchers around the country, and indeed around the world, are currently working on without yet having achieved a satisfactory result.

Although I readily understand why the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, has moved his amendment, I find the amendment, although this might be unfair, perhaps—to make up a word—a little closed mind-ish. There is no doubt that, over recent years, the medical fraternity has made leaps and bounds in research. There is even, as I understand it, a possibility that stem cells could be used to repair the nerve system up the back. Now, such developments may come up in five, 20 or 50 years— I do not know, and nobody knows—but an amendment like this is so restrictive that it rather ignores the possibilities of medical science.

I readily understand the interest of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, in mental health, particularly autism. I confess that I do not know anything about autism, whereas clearly he does. It is not beyond the wit of man to believe that some better treatment, understanding or social environment in respect of any mental disease could well improve matters to allow people a certain amount of, for example, work. My son-in-law suffers from ME, and apparently there is tremendous argument as to whether ME is entirely a mental disease or a physical disease with mental attributes. I do not know whether he will recover enough to work; I suspect that neither he nor anyone else knows that. However, I find this particular amendment—especially the second one—somewhat restrictive.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, in his amendment. I respect the view of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, on ME, and I also thank the Minister for his recent letter to me that clarifies a lot about the department’s stance on ME. I am very grateful for what he has done.

However, there are serious cases of ME where people are just not going to get better. In the House the other day during our consideration of the Health and Social Care Bill, I described a young lady who has had ME since she was 15 and who is now 30 and is not going to get any better. There are a lot of people like that. She is suffering terrible stress with worrying about what is going to happen with her personal independence payments, and that is not helping her condition. In cases like that, where it is pretty obvious that the person is not going to get better—unless there is a miracle of medical science, when of course it should be reviewed whether the person’s health can be improved, which would be all well and good—such patients should not be subjected to the stresses of a medical examination.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Skelmersdale]

Before my noble friend the Minister responds to the questions asked by noble Lords, it seems to me that the key to all these questions is in Clause 99(4)(c)—in other words, what exceptions to the application of the benefit cap are due to be made? As I understand the matter, the average annual salary for a full-time worker is currently £25,900 a year. In his very long speech, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, talked about the amount of money out-of-work families are expected to live on. Those were his exact words. I find it extremely difficult to anticipate that the amount of money out-of-work families are expected to live on should be more than the average annual salary for a full-time worker.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Skelmersdale]

Can I just finish? I accept that this will involve lifestyle changes. It is inevitable, is it not? Noble Lords have spoken about housing. There is no doubt that idleness—no, idleness is an unfair word—having more time than someone in full-time work costs money. How and with what—

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Would the noble Lord approve of a lifestyle change that forced someone out of a council house, whatever the level of rent, into much more expensive private sector accommodation because they had been made homeless? Is that a lifestyle change that the noble Lord would approve of?

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Perhaps I may add to my noble friend’s comments. Would the noble Lord care to compare apples with apples rather than apples with oranges—in other words, not compare the situation of a single man earning the average of £25,000 with the situation of a family who would also be entitled, for example, to child tax credits? If the noble Lord is going to make comparisons, he must in all integrity compare like with like.

[Lord Skelmersdale]

If there is a family where the sole income comes from either the man or the woman, then the situation is as I have described it. If, however, someone is working full time and someone is working part time, then the situation is clearly different, which is what I suspect the noble Baroness means.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

The noble Lord is incorrect. He is failing to recognise that a man in work with a family at that income level will be entitled to tax credits that go into his net income. He is failing to take into account the additional benefits that come from the state over and beyond wages for someone in full-time work. He must compare like with like in all integrity.

[Lord Skelmersdale]

In that case, it would be useful for my noble friend Lord Freud to tell us how many families with an income of £25,900 a year are on benefit of any sort. I cannot imagine that he will be able to do so off the cuff but—

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

Perhaps I may intervene. I can tell the Committee off the cuff that all of them with children will be receiving child benefit, which has a 99 per cent take-up rate. They will be receiving exactly the same amount in child benefit as people out of work, and one of the amendments in the next group will address this matter.

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, as I understand it, everyone with children gets child benefit, so you can cut that out quite regularly because you know that it is going to come under subsection (4)(c)—that is inevitable. As I said at the beginning, we will find out from my noble friend what exceptions the Government are currently planning in order to change what the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, calls apples and pears into apples and apples or perhaps pears and pears.

[Lord German]

My Lords—