Great British Energy Bill

Lord Ravensdale Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I live and work in Derby, so it is a particular delight to see the noble Baroness, Lady Beckett, make her maiden speech. She is a living legend in the city of Derby, having served Derby South for 41 years—an incredible achievement.

I declare my interests, including as a chief engineer for AtkinsRéalis and a director of Peers for the Planet. I support the Bill; as the Minister said, it is a means of supporting more private investment in the industry and much-needed investment in energy in the UK. However, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, on the benefits to the House of being able to see the strategic priorities and plans in order to allow us to assess the aims in more detail as the Bill progresses through your Lordships’ House.

I will make three high-level points. First, there is the issue of cost, which was put across very well by the noble Lord, Lord Howell. It is at times like this that I regret the inability to use visual aids in your Lordships’ House. If I could, I would have projected a graph on one of the screens showing the changes in industrial electricity prices over the past five years, by country. In Italy and Germany, prices have increased by around 50%. In France, the figure is 93%, and in the UK there has been a 124% increase in industrial electricity prices over the period since 2019, which highlights the particular challenge of energy prices here. In the USA, prices have increased by 21% over that period and are now a quarter of the price we see in the UK.

Beside the obvious effects on bill payers for households and businesses, this has a real effect on the number one mission of the Government, the highest-priority mission, which is getting economic growth going again in the United Kingdom. Many companies I have spoken to in recent months have set out that they want to invest in the UK but cannot make the numbers and the business case stack up, due to that high electricity price, if they are energy-intensive users. That really needs some focus. The reason I mention it in the context of the Bill is that, looking at the objects of Great British Energy, we see set out, quite clearly, decarbonisation, sustainability and security of supply. But we do not see cost, which is conspicuous by its absence.

I would come at this from the point of view of join-up across the other agencies within government that are looking at the energy system—for example, the National Energy System Operator. The legislation that set up NESO, the Energy Act 2023, clearly set out its responsibilities in terms of costs, sustainability and security—the three sides of the energy trilemma. From the point of view of consistency and systems alignment, there is a real opportunity here for the Government to consider that as an object or duty for Great British Energy, given its priority for economic growth and the other missions.

My second point is on systems governance. It is welcome how the Government have set out the importance of local governance in terms of the energy system. In recent years we have seen a lot of work done on top-down energy system governance, but we have not seen the corresponding plan for how the energy system is to be governed from the bottom up, from local authorities up to regions up to the national level. That is vital if we are to deliver a coherent energy transformation to net zero over the coming years. It has been really encouraging to hear about the potential role of Great British Energy, as the Ministers set out in their remarks here and in the other place, in local power plans and local area energy planning. The issue we have seen over recent years with local area energy plans is their patchwork nature—varying levels of quality and robustness in how they are set out within local authorities. But they are essential in delivering the scale of investment we need for net zero. So I urge the Government to use the Bill as an opportunity to more clearly set out how that local governance structure is going to work, particularly in the context of NESO, which is responsible for the regional energy strategic planner role. If Great British Energy has a separate role within the energy system, that energy governance needs to be set out more clearly in the Bill.

My third point is on nuclear. The Minister in the other place set out quite clearly, as did the Minister here in his remarks, the need for a separation between Great British Nuclear and Great British Energy, which is absolutely the right way to go. Great British Nuclear needs that clear role and stakeholders on its board who have expertise in nuclear. But we need to see the roles and responsibilities more clearly set out and split between Great British Nuclear and Great British Energy, so I would welcome clarity on that.

I will finish with a few final questions. One of the objects is the distribution of clean energy. Can the Minister clarify what the role of Great British Energy is in relation to NESO in this respect? Another object is on security of supply, but that can encompass many things, from reliability to fuel security to physical security to cybersecurity. Can the Minister say how the Government would define security of supply within the Bill?

I look forward to working with the Minister and his team as this Bill goes forward to Committee.

Great British Energy Bill

Lord Ravensdale Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

The simple truth is that, even with the best will in the world, without having a clear and defined commitment in GB Energy’s objectives and getting this in the Bill, there are no guarantees that this stuff will happen, will happen in the future, and will happen under the next Government if the next Government are of a different political persuasion. GB Energy is an arm’s-length body and we call on the Committee and the Minister to support giving it a specific remit to support community- owned energy projects by including community energy in its objectives and in the statement of strategic priorities.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my energy interests in the register. I will speak to my Amendment 19 and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for her support of that amendment. This amendment is very straightforward and we have had some discussion already in the second group around cost and the importance of cost and reflecting that, but I will put a bit of a different slant on that.

Noble Lords will be very familiar with the energy trilemma and balancing the competing demands of cost, sustainability and security. Any public organisation that has energy system responsibilities should be focusing on and balancing these objects. We look at NESO, for example. This was set up in the Energy Act 2023 with a cost, sustainability and security duty. Likewise, Ofgem has cost and security considered in its consumer duty and a sustainability duty was added as part of that 2023 Act as well.

However, when I reviewed the objects—I was very grateful for the education provided by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, on the difference between objects and objectives and that is certainly something we need to come back to—cost was conspicuous by its absence. My first point is that we really should be considering system alignments and consistency across all those UK energy system organisations in terms of their objects and duties. Cost, sustainability and security should be running as a golden thread through all of them so that all those organisations are aiming at the same thing. Great British Energy is a central player in the energy system. It will be making significant investments of public money and aiming to crowd in private investment. Through these investments it will presumably be aiming to lower the cost of energy, which is a key government objective, as well as decarbonisation and security objectives.

My second point is on the importance of cost. We have already heard about the UK having the highest industrial electricity prices in the developed world. They are now four times those in the US. This not only has the obvious impact on bills but is a real brake on growth. I have spoken to a number of industrial companies recently which want to set up in the UK but cannot make the numbers stack up in their business cases because of our high electricity prices so are taking their business elsewhere. For the Government to achieve their number one mission of economic growth, they need to have a laser focus on reducing electricity prices and I know the Minister and the Government are very focused on this area. I hope the Minister can consider this small change and come back with a government amendment on Report which would really help align GBE with the critical priorities of the Government.

My Amendment 34 seeks to clarify the definition of security of supply. I look at Clause 3 and can see clear definitions for “clean energy”, “distribution”, “fossil fuel” and “greenhouse gas” but cannot see a definition for “security of supply”. Noble Lords have made the point in earlier debates about the importance of energy security. It is important to clarify this term: first, because the definition can be very broad; and, secondly, because it can mean different things to different people.

I have some personal experience here in that I recently chaired an energy security task force for the Midlands region and we spent a fair bit of time debating what we really meant by energy security. It is not as straightforward as it first appears. Many when considering this term would jump straight to fuel security and having sovereign energy so that we are not dependent on foreign states and can avoid the energy price spikes that we saw following the invasion of Ukraine. Of course, there is also price predictability: we could have fuel security but volatile prices remain. System reliability is also key so that people can access energy when they need it. Cybersecurity and physical security are other important aspects.

It is very important that in the primary legislation we are clear on what is meant by terms and help guide stakeholders, including business and industry, on how GBE will undertake its duties. I would welcome some further engagement with the Minister on how the Government would define this term and I again hope that he can consider this and come back with a government amendment on Report.

Finally, my Amendment 20 relates to local area energy planning. Great British Energy could play a really important role in energy system governance and I have been encouraged to hear from the Government the renewed focus on local planning, with a potential role for GBE in local power plans and local area energy plans which could bring in the focus on community energy, spoken to earlier by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux.

Given the role of GBE, the Government have an opportunity with the Bill to set out in more detail how energy system governance will work at a local level. The story of net zero so far has been a top-down one—in essence, central planning from the Government, which needs to be done—but that transition will not succeed unless this is matched by a bottom-up governance approach from local areas to regions to the national level. So much of the knowledge rests in those local areas; for example, the condition of housing stock relating to energy efficiency measures, and local energy infrastructure.

Local area energy plans could be the foundation of how energy system governance is planned and undertaken at a local level. The issue we have seen over recent years with local area energy plans is their patchwork nature. We have many in place but with varying levels of quality and robustness in how they are set out within local authorities. I note that only 31% of local authorities are covered by local area energy plans. These plans need to be delivered to a consistent standard, with robust data and analysis, and consideration should also be given to how this can be aligned to meet the input requirements necessary for regional energy strategic planning to undertake that flow-up of governance.

Three things are needed: guidance from government on what a local area energy plan is, as has already been set out in Wales; funding for stretched local authorities to develop these plans; and an oversight function to co-ordinate and ensure that those local plans are joined up. There is a really good opportunity here. If GBE is the organisation that is going to take on all or some of those roles, setting that out in the Bill would be an excellent step forward in firming up that crucial local governance function to stakeholders, and unlock local planning of energy. I would be grateful if the Minister could perhaps give us more detail on the role of Great British Energy in this area.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I will just intervene very briefly indeed in support of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, with regard to Amendment 34 and the question of system reliability. In my previous incarnation I represented a constituency that had the Dinorwig pumped storage scheme. That scheme was brilliant in terms of being able to help guarantee the availability of electricity when it was needed. Half-time in the cup final was a traditional way of interpreting that, when there was a surge of demand. It had the capability of going from zero to full output in eight seconds.

The economic benefit of that is obvious in having a system that does not need to match the total maximum demand. The peaks of that graph are cut off and equalised in a way that makes a lower capacity, and therefore lower total capital investment, a viable proposition. The point I put to the Minister is this: a number of pumped storage schemes are being developed at the moment. There is a significant number in Scotland, including some of the larger ones, but they are also in Wales. They have been waiting for years to get the necessary information on which to base investment decisions. There is one using an old slate quarry hole in Talysarn in my former constituency. It is raring to go but, until it gets the details of the prices that will apply, it obviously cannot make an investment decision. We are talking about tens of millions of pounds, possibly hundreds of millions, and a benefit to the overall system.

In responding, can the Minister give any comfort by way of the timescale by when the framework for such decisions can be made? We really need to get on with it. I am quite sure that those in charge of Great British Energy will also need this information.

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This has been an interesting debate, and I hope that noble Lords will feel that I have responded appropriately.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his response to my amendments. I wanted briefly to clarify something he said in responding to my Amendment 19. He essentially made a link between a clean energy system and price stability, therefore making the argument that “costs” was not required in the objects. But there are of course wide variations in the costs of a clean energy system: there are expensive clean energy systems, and cheaper ones. NESO is developing a wide range of scenarios here. So I argue that we cannot rely purely on making that link—the organisation needs to take costs into account more broadly as well.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I very much take that point. Clearly, my department is cognisant of costs. Much of our discussion with His Majesty’s Treasury on the resources made available obviously takes in those constraints. The point I made earlier is simply that we believe—and we are supported by NESO, the Committee on Climate Change and the OBR—that the best way to secure stable prices in the future is to charge on to clean power net zero.

Great British Energy Bill

Lord Ravensdale Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ravensdale]

56: Clause 5, page 3, line 27, at end insert—
“(6A) Prior to publishing a statement of strategic priorities for Great British Energy the Secretary of State must consult—(a) the Climate Change Committee,(b) the National Energy Systems Operator,(c) Natural England,(d) the Environment Agency, and(e) any other person the Secretary of State sees fit.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult relevant stakeholders before publishing the statement of strategic priorities.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my energy interests in the register and rise to speak to Amendment 56 on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who cannot be here today. This is a probing amendment around which bodies the Secretary of State ought to consult with ahead of publishing a statement of strategic priorities. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, has tabled Amendment 86 in relation to this, which is similar and which we will come on to in a later group.

On previous groups, noble Lords have been quite clear that we would like to scrutinise the statement of strategic priorities alongside the legislation. As that will not be possible, in lieu of that we need to ensure the robustness of the process of agreeing the statement. This amendment is simply about ensuring that all the relevant information, evidence and expertise have been factored in ahead of the publication of the statement of strategic priorities to ensure that the relevant trade-offs, difficult questions and conflicting pressures are being considered ahead of that fixing of GBE’s strategic priorities.

Between them the organisations listed in the amendment have a comprehensive overview of what needs to be done to deliver our climate change targets, the Government’s target to achieve clean power by 2030 and our environmental targets. Consulting each of them will ensure that their views and recommendations have been fully considered in the preparation of that statement of strategic priorities. I hope the Minister will consider this suggestion as a helpful addition to the Bill.

I also support Amendment 116 to which the noble Baroness, Lady Young, will speak. It would align with other recent legislation that specifically mentions our climate and nature targets and would ensure that we take a consistent and systems-led approach across all that legislation. I reference here the recent work on the Crown Estate Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment 56A (to Amendment 56)

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I shall make a few brief points. I take the point made by the Minister about the list system with Amendment 66, but I hope we can get some assurance leading up to Report on the stakeholders that Great British Energy will engage with.

On Amendment 56A, without retreading some of the debate on previous groups, I support what the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, is saying about this. There is clear consensus that GBN should remain a separate organisation from Great British Energy, but that is not to say that Great British Energy cannot invest in nuclear projects—fuels, components or nuclear batteries, for example. Clearly, there is an important interface there.

I was very encouraged by what the Minister said on Amendment 116 about the importance of the consistency, and by the strong arguments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on the Crown Estate Bill and consistency with other legislation. I also enjoyed the interesting and unique angle that the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, had on his support for Amendment 56. I look forward to further discussion with the Minister between now and Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56 withdrawn.

Great British Energy Bill

Lord Ravensdale Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, we seem to have gone into Committee mode.

I want to talk briefly to Amendment 35 from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, to which I have added my name. It is important never to forget that there are those issues in rural communities. I also am on oil, I regret to say. In Northern Ireland, 50% of households are dependent on oil and only 33% are connected to the grid. It is an important area, and I very much support the spirit of that amendment.

I also want to talk very briefly to Amendment 7, which is about adding “nuclear energy” to the list in Clause 3. I do not understand this amendment because Clause 3(2)(b) on the list refers to

“the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from energy produced from fossil fuels”—

that must include nuclear—and Clause 3(2)(d) refers to

“measures for ensuring the security of the supply of energy”.

I would have thought that the nuclear sector would say it met both those objects. To add nuclear energy to that list would suggest that it does not meet the other two criteria, so that seems totally counterproductive.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a chief engineer working for AtkinsRéalis. I will make two very brief points.

My first point is on nuclear and the amendment the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, just spoke to, which was brought before the House by the noble Lord, Lord Offord, and spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield. She made a great point; it is all about that statement of intent from the Government. The only other point I add is that, as regards Great British Energy, we need to think about not only the benefits in terms of the nuclear power stations but capturing that broader benefit for the economy of all the supply chains associated with it. The components, fuels, pumps, rods, control, drive mechanisms—that all requires investment in factories and infrastructure to capture the full economic benefit for the UK. I hope that perhaps Great British Energy could get involved in that, alongside Great British Nuclear.

My second point is around energy security. To follow on from something I raised in Committee, we have clear definitions for much of the terminology in Clause 3 but we do not have a clear definition there for energy security. I raise that because it can mean different things to different people. I think the Government are very focused on fuel security—gas and reducing our reliance on fossil gas. But of course there are many other aspects to energy security: there is cybersecurity, physical security, system reliability and price predictability. It is important to fully define that term so that stakeholders are not left guessing about what is really in the remit of Great British Energy. When summing up, can the Minister commit to having, certainly in the statement of strategic priorities, a firmer definition of what we mean by security of supply?

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, people are talking a lot about carbon dioxide, and I hugely support carbon capture and utilisation. We have large plants manufacturing carbon dioxide deliberately. For instance, it is used for manufacturing fertiliser and in fire extinguishers—noble Lords may well have some in their house, and there are certainly some around Parliament. The food industry uses a whole lot of it, partly for carbonated drinks and also for refrigeration and some of the manufacturing processes. It is used for freezing and for transporting organs and such things in dry ice, which your Lordships have probably all heard of. It is used in greenhouses for bringing on the ripening of various things, and in the manufacture of a lot of chemicals. It has many industrial uses, and it is used in curing concrete. It is used for lots of things, so capturing it and using it would be very sensible, and we might manufacture slightly less of it.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I shall join in the general outbreak of harmony that has struck your Lordships’ House and welcome government Amendment 8 on community energy. This is one more demonstration that campaigning works—but, boy, does it often take quite a long while. I really must commend Community Energy England, Green Alliance, and Peers for the Planet, which have all been pushing this issue for a very long time. I also commend your Lordships’ House collectively, because your Lordships may recall that, in the previous Government’s Energy Bill—now an Act—this was the last amendment standing, as we defended again and again the need to include community energy on the face of that Bill. Perhaps this is a demonstration to your Lordships’ House that it is a good idea to stand up for principles, because eventually you will get there, even if it takes some time.

To echo the remarks of the noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady McIntosh, yes, we would like to see the Government go further, both in the strategic priorities and in the sense that we need long-term, stable policies. I remember meeting so many community energy groups that were just about ready to go when the feed-in tariff was ripped out from underneath them and their projects collapsed after so much voluntary effort had been put in. The people doing this need the certainty to know that this will work and deliver, and that means long-term, stable policies.

Turning to Amendment 14 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, I can say that, based on the clarification that he has just provided, the Green group will be pleased to support his amendment, should he press it to the vote.

In the previous group, we were talking about Drax, which has benefited from £6 billion of subsidies since 2012, which the people and the planet cannot afford anymore. Imagine if that £6 billion had gone into home energy efficiency instead; there is good evidence to show that we would have needed so much less generation in the first place. The cleanest, greenest energy that you can possibly have is the energy that you do not need to use. There are not only the environmental benefits and the cost-of-living benefits, as huge as they are; there are also the public health benefits, since so many people live in unhealthy homes. Your Lordships’ House often talks about productivity and all the people of working age who are not in paid work. The quality of our homes is a big issue there, and that must not be forgotten as an added bonus, as well as the environmental and cost-of-living ones.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, I too very much welcome the Government’s Amendment 8 and thank the Minister for the productive engagement we had in between Committee and Report.

I also thank the Minister for facilitating the very useful discussion with the CEO of Great British Energy on local area energy planning, which tunes into some of the things we are doing in the Midlands. I would welcome a brief reassurance from the Minister on local area energy planning and how that is to be taken forward. One of the concerns is that it is absolutely vital to get local authorities engaged in the process and have that bottom-up view on energy assistance governance to match the top-down view that will be brought forward in the spatial strategic energy plan, as other noble Lords have said. Local energy planning is central to that, but we have seen a great disparity in the UK, with large, well-funded combined authorities and councils taking a rigorous approach, but other, less well-funded ones simply not having the resources to do that. Great British Energy could provide a key role here in funding local authorities and in having that view across the system of local area energy planning. I would welcome some reassurance from the Minister on the way forward for local area energy plans. Will they be one of the things that Great British Energy invests in?

[The Lord Bishop of Norwich]

My Lords, I support the Government’s Amendment 8. It is good that the Government have introduced this amendment so that Great British Energy can facilitate, encourage and participate in local community energy projects. I pay tribute to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for the work he has done on this, as well as a number of different campaigning organisations and other Members of your Lordships’ House. This is a very important amendment, and it will be a great help to a whole range of different community organisations.

I also support the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, and the noble Earl, Lord Russell, in pressing the Minister about the community energy fund. Some reassurance there would be very helpful.

Village halls, sports centres, voluntary youth organisations and churches could all benefit from being able to generate local energy for local people. I certainly see the potential for our churches, which have wonderful south-facing roofs. With the planning consent given to King’s College Chapel in Cambridge to have solar panels and other landmark projects such as York Minister and Salisbury Cathedral, there are new opportunities emerging.

I warn your Lordships that, if you are ever invited to go to a dedication of solar panels on a church roof, just beware. When I went to dedicate the solar panels on the roof of St Peter Mancroft church in the centre of Norwich back in September, a very observant member of the public rang 999, saying that a youth was stealing lead off the roof. When I came down, having dedicated the solar panels, I had to answer to two local police officers who had turned up—it was a great compliment to be called a youth, though.

This is important work for community groups and the charitable sector to be able to contribute to their local communities in new ways, particularly in areas of low economic activity, and to provide income for their sustainability. There is a challenge that I wanted the Minister to be aware of, however. The connection charge that is asked for to upgrade the electricity connection to many churches and community centres often prohibits them being able to do this sort of work. In the diocese I serve, St Margaret’s church in Lowestoft has just been quoted a sum of around £100,000 to make the connection. That means that the project is just unaffordable, so we need to be creative and think more about how community groups can be able to engage.

But I warmly support the Government bringing forward their Amendment 8.