Children and Families Bill

Lord Nash Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

Amendment 65A seeks to appeal restrictions to Section 8 orders for children in local authority care. At present, legislation which aims to ensure the welfare of looked-after children is not being consistently implemented at local authority level. For instance, Section 9 of the Children and Young Persons Act 2008, states that:

“As far as is reasonably practicable”,

and when “consistent with their welfare”, a local authority must provide accommodation for a child that is “in the authority’s area”, yet in reality one-third of children in care are placed outside their local authority’s area. In the case of residential care, almost half of children are placed outside their area.

Similarly, Section 8 of the Children and Young Persons Act 2008 states that suitable accommodation should ensure that,

“if C has a sibling for whom the local authority are also providing accommodation, it enables C and the siblings to live together”,

yet in a survey by the Children’s Rights Director in 2011, almost three-quarters of children in care reported being separated from their siblings. Young people in children’s homes are most affected with, I am advised, 96% being separated from a sibling. Noble Lords will agree that the current situation is unacceptable, yet there is little recourse at present for looked-after children to enforce their rights.

Independent reviewing officers are supposed to intervene if a child's views and welfare are not being taken into account in care planning, and have the power to report cases to CAFCASS, which reports to the family courts. However, this rarely happens in reality. Between 2004 and 2011, independent reviewing officers reported only eight cases to CAFCASS. Independent reviewing officers seem to lack the time, independence and legal expertise to properly ensure children’s rights are not breached.

Similarly, the complaints procedures available to looked-after children are both too lengthy and insufficiently robust to make a difference in serious cases. A survey by the Children’s Rights Director in 2012 found that over one-third of the looked-after young people surveyed said that making a complaint made no difference at all to their situation and over one-fifth said it had made it worse.

Finally, children in care already have access to legal action through judicial reviews for very serious cases. However, while judicial reviews are superior to complaints procedures and IROs as they are truly impartial, robust and fast enough to make a real difference, there are also limits to their effectiveness. First, they can question only the way a local authority has made a decision, not the decision itself. Secondly, judicial reviews are an extremely expensive way of enforcing rights, costing upwards of £30,000. Given the economic climate we are in, it is increasingly unlikely that judicial reviews will continue to be an option for looked-after children. Thirdly, they happen after the event and usually after significant harm has been sustained.

However, there is an important legal right that looked-after children are denied, which could provide them with a means to prevent local authorities acting against their interests. As I am sure noble Lords are aware, Section 8 orders such as contact, prohibited steps and specific issue orders enable children to prevent their parents taking actions that are against their best interests. If a parent attempts to prevent a child seeing a family member or tries to move the child away from their home, the child may, through their solicitor and if that legal representative considers there to be sufficient grounds, ask a court to make a Section 8 order. Though rarely exercised or indeed necessary, the right to do this is a crucial protection for children in difficult situations.

However, at present, Section 9(1) of the Children Act 1989 states:

“No court shall make any section 8 order, other than residence order, with respect to a child who is in the care of a local authority”.

This is a gross inequality for looked-after children, denying them the same rights available to all other young people. Opening up Section 8 orders to looked-after children would give them a clear and direct means of redress if a local authority is acting against their interests and welfare. For instance, a child threatened with an unnecessary move far away from home could ask a court to make a prohibited steps order. The threat of legal action would also provide a clear incentive for local authorities to implement existing policy concerning looked-after children and act in their best interests. The paramountcy principle is enshrined in the Children Act 1989; importantly, this will be driven not by government but by the people whose lives are most affected.

It is not envisaged that large numbers of looked-after children will approach courts to make Section 8 orders against local authorities. However, for those in very serious situations where such legal action is appropriate, this will be an enabling right which could make all the difference. The potential gains of opening up Section 8 orders are very great. By allowing young people to seek help from a court to prevent local authorities acting against their interests we could prevent many disruptive placement moves, which have such a harmful effect on the outcomes of children in care. Opening up Section 8 orders would enable prevention of harm rather than simply redress after the event. It is a vital early intervention measure and this proposal will be an historic step forward for the rights of children in care. I look forward to hearing the Government’s response.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)]

My Lords, in responding to Amendments 27 and 28, I pay tribute to the long-running commitment of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, to improving the lives of our most vulnerable young people by ensuring that their voices are heard. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley said earlier, it is only if we listen to children in the child protection system and those who come into care that we will ensure that they are being effectively supported and safeguarded. In particular, children in care need to be able to challenge and influence strategic planning as well as day-to-day decisions taken about their lives.

For those in the child protection system, the revised government guidance Working Together to Safeguard Children makes it clear that the child’s needs are paramount and that children need advocacy as part of an effective child protection system. The Department for Education has also worked with the office of the Children’s Rights Director on the publication in August this year of the Young Person’s Guide to Working Together to Safeguard Children. This highlights that in child protection conferences and the child protection process children should be listened to and supported, including by being able to ask for an advocate to help them put their views across. To quote from it, social workers,

“should ask your views so that you can have your say on what should or should not be in the child protection plan. Remember, you can ask for an advocate to help you do this, if you want”.

I believe that the guidance strikes the right balance of clarity over statutory responsibilities, while allowing local authorities and professionals to develop professional practice in the best interests of children. I feel that guidance rather than primary legislation is the most appropriate vehicle for promoting advocacy support for children.

While advocacy can help and benefit some children, sadly one of the concerns highlighted in recent, tragic cases is that the social worker and other front-line professionals have sometimes not done enough to seek the views of children at the assessment or the child protection inquiry stage. I would not want at this stage to detract from the important responsibility of professionals to listen to the child by introducing in legislation an additional person with this responsibility.

I turn to advocacy for looked-after children. The Children and Families Minister meets regularly with groups of children in care and separately with care leavers. We recognise that many of them say that they do not have access to advocacy services and that, as the noble Earl said, provision is patchy. That is why the Government, as part of our commitment to improving advocacy services, have doubled the funding to them from £150,000 to £300,000. This year, we are supporting both the National Youth Advocacy Service and Voice to provide an advocacy service for looked-after children and care leavers. The services will include information and advice via telephone, enabling young people to access and obtain advice when they want it, and the allocation of an independent advocate to support and represent young people when they want it.

We do not think that further legislation in regard to the role of advocacy in children’s reviews of their care plans is necessary. The Government have already strengthened the role of the independent reviewing officer to give due consideration to the wishes and feelings of the child when making decisions with respect to the child. It includes a specific duty to ensure that a child understands how an advocate could help to support them at their care plan review meeting. We recognise that even more needs to be done, and that is why we are working closely with the advocacy sector and Children in Care Councils to enable all children to know their rights to have an advocate.

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[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I listened to the noble Lord very carefully. I note that the amendment of my noble friend Lord Listowel refers to,

“independent advocacy for the child in relation to any decision making meeting in the course of section 47 enquiries”.

I have a lot to do with young people who have ME. In many cases, not even the parents are invited to the decision-making meeting, and the children are never consulted. Can the noble Lord reassure me that this will not occur in the future? One particular charity, the Times Trust, has dealt with 90 such cases in the past 12 months, and each time the parents and the children are ignored—the decisions are made over their heads.

[Lord Nash]

I hear what the noble Countess, Lady Mar, says. They should be consulted and Ofsted should inspect that again. However, we will write to the noble Countess on this matter.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott]

I thank the Minister for his response to my amendment and I am delighted that he acknowledges the spirit behind it. I believe this to be worthy of more discussion, and I know that his officials have already promised that. On that basis, I shall not be pressing the amendment.

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[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

My Lords, at the moment considerable consultation is taking place with local authorities on children’s homes, particularly in the area of safeguarding and bringing in new and helpful ways of running them. Is it possible, within that consultation, to consider the relationships of the children in the home, and why siblings are separated? Could that be part of the appraisal of the effectiveness of running children’s homes?

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and Lady Jones, for raising this extremely important issue. The amendment gives me the opportunity to say that I have published draft regulations for your Lordships’ consideration. I completely agree that contact between siblings can be of great importance and extremely beneficial—this is not in dispute. However, I hear what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, my noble friends Lady Hamwee, Lady Walmsley and Lady Benjamin, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Lord, Lord May, have said. I am afraid that we do not agree that amending Section 34 is the right thing to do. The Family Justice Review recommended that the Government should consult on whether Section 34 should be amended, along the same lines as proposed in this amendment. We did just that. Drawing on the experience and knowledge of a number of experts, we agreed that amending the law was not the right thing to do, and that more work needed to be done to improve practice and facilitate positive contact between siblings.

When the child’s local authority is considering what contact there should be—whether with the child’s parents or siblings—the authority must ensure that it is consistent with safeguarding and promoting the child’s welfare. In doing so, the draft regulations require local authorities to have regard to the child’s care plan. We consider that that is the right approach. Current regulations already require local authorities to consider and review contact arrangements with siblings. Local authorities are under a duty to include in a child’s care plan details of how they will meet the child’s needs in relation to all family relationships. This includes arrangements for promoting and maintaining contact with siblings.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

I wonder whether the Minister could develop his argument and try to convince us. First, what was the reason given by the respondents in that consultation as to why changing the law was not the best course of action? Secondly, picking up on the point made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, why does the Minister think the current requirements on local authorities in the regulations, to which he is referring, are patently not working, as so many children in care are losing contact or are not placed with their siblings?

[Lord Nash]

I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s further question. We consulted a number of experts, including Dr Beth Neil, Fran Fonseca, Jack Smith, Linda Jones, Roger Morgan, Julie Selwyn and Alan Rushton. They felt that this was a matter of practice and that more work needed to be done to improve practice. I agree, and I share the noble Baroness’s concern about this. In the light of the feelings expressed today, it is a matter that we need to look at again, but our current thinking is that it is a matter of practice and not a question of changing the law.

When siblings are looked after but are not placed together, their individual care plan must set out the arrangements made to promote contact between them. The care plan must be reviewed regularly, which allows for the arrangements to be revised as the child’s circumstances change. Sibling contact is already provided for in the Children Act 1989, and the court must consider contact arrangements before making a care order. The looked-after siblings can apply to court for contact. We have specifically ensured that the court continues to consider contact arrangements through Clause 15.

As for the question about children in care homes, which was raised by my noble friend Lady Walmsley and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, I can give the commitment that we currently have a programme of work to look at how to improve the quality and support of practice in children’s homes. I shall ask my officials to look specifically at the issue of siblings being placed together as part of this work. It is true that Ofsted should look at how siblings are placed in children’s homes.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

I wonder whether I could pursue something that has been said. On the question of whether the children’s officers throughout the UK are in support of this system—and I am thinking particularly of the requirement that the English Children’s Commissioner is clearly going to have much more independence than she currently has—is this an area that needs looking at? Could the Minister clarify that?

[Lord Nash]

It is something that we can ask the Children’s Commissioner to look at. We will talk to her about this. As my noble friend Lady Walmsley said, perhaps this is an area where we should do further research. I shall ask my officials to consider this. I think that the noble Earl raised that point as well. I have noted the strength of feeling on this point today, and we will take it away for further consideration. Nevertheless, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.

[The Earl of Listowel]

Before the noble Baroness does so, it occurs to me that the matter of staying put might be helpful in this arena. If there are two siblings, one of 16 and one of 17, in the same foster care household and then one turns 18, enabling the foster carer and the young person to stay together past the age of 18 might enable that sibling relationship to endure further. I do not know what the experience is there, so if the Minister can help with any information with regard to whether there is a significant factor in helping young people to stay put—if that helps in the issue of keeping siblings together—I would be grateful to him. Perhaps the voluntary agencies know of examples in that area; again, I would be grateful to hear about that.

[Lord Nash]

We will note the noble Earl’s question and feed it into the considerations to which I referred.

[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

First, I thank all colleagues who have contributed to this debate, because their contributions added considerable weight to my introduction. There was obvious support across the Committee for this amendment and the issue. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, were able to give us some direct testimony of children, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, as ever, gave us her insight into what is going wrong with the system and why things are as they are.

I am pleased that the Minister said that he has heard the strength of feeling on this issue. He made two points in response. The first was that a number of experts had said that because this was a matter of practice, changing the law was not the right way to try to improve contact between siblings in those care cases. There is a dynamic relationship between the law and practice, is there not? We frequently set out what professionals ought to do in legislation. Yes, we may flesh it out further in regulation, but practice is often defined in legislation. His second point was that we already have regulations that require that. Clearly, they are not working when so many children in care—by accident, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, said; it is not intended—are by default losing contact with their brothers and sisters.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, we have had a good debate and I do not intend to talk at any length. However, I wish to make a few quick points.

First, obviously, I welcome and endorse the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young. She made an eloquent speech last week about the importance of identity and she has raised the issue in a helpful way today in a different but complementary context. It is no doubt important for children as they are growing up and becoming fully rounded adults to know about their history. It is their history and it is their right to have access to it. We all accept that point.

The second point to make is that we have talked about children and young people leaving care but very often adults can be well into middle age before they really begin to question their identity and want to search for that information. That provides a particular challenge for the people who keep the data because we are talking about keeping it for a very long time. Nevertheless, it is still people’s right to have access to it.

To pick up on a point made last week by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, about people in care who had been bereaved, having lost their parents, one would have hoped that somehow or other we could have lined up all these rights to information and brought them together. We are talking here about the same sorts of issues coming up in a number of different contexts. I would have hoped that somewhere in the midst of all that would be a universal right to that information and that we could address it in that way rather than in a piecemeal way.

Thirdly, I was alarmed to hear noble Lords today talking about data being lost, or indeed being dumped on a doorstep. There is a real issue here concerning the security of the information. It is rather alarming, and I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth. What has happened to all those accurate expectations of privacy and security and of records being kept properly? You cannot help but wonder whether there is going to be a scandal at some point with all this stuff coming to light, having been left on a rubbish dump somewhere. I do not think that anybody here has a sense of reassurance that this information is being kept securely in a proper place. Perhaps the noble Lord could address that and say what the requirements are for keeping the information secure.

I should just like to add my support for the amendment. The noble Baroness has raised a very important point, as have the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott. In particular, I hope that we will get a chance to debate the whole question of staying in foster care until the age of 21. I know that my noble friend Lady Hughes will respond in more detail on that but I want to pick up one point which the noble Baroness touched on concerning the distinction between foster care and residential care. Clearly, there is a distinction and we have to be careful not just to lump the two issues together. There is a difference for young people leaving residential care, which is, after all, still formally an institutional provision. What those young people really need is a phased transition to independence, rather than just the requirement to stay on until they are 21. They need help over a period of time to find their feet and to find independence. Therefore, while the noble Baroness raised absolutely valid points, I think that we need to separate them out and make slightly separate provision for them. I know that we will debate this in more detail when we come to Amendment 38. Apart from that, we have had a very good debate and I thank noble Lords.

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, so far as concerns accessing information for looked-after children and care leavers, I share the convictions of the noble Baronesses, Lady Young, Lady Massey and Lady Jones, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, and my noble friends Lady Hamwee and Lady Benjamin that all young people should be able to access their records. However, we believe that this is a matter of practice rather than legislation. As the Committee will hear, our regulations on this are clear.

Regulations require the local authority to open a case record in respect of each looked-after child. So, for example, a child seeking information referring to them that is held within a foster carer’s records could make a subject access request to see that information. Care leavers are entitled to access their records, regardless of whether they were in foster care or a children’s home.

Our transitions guidance states that local authorities must assure themselves that agencies which contribute to the young person’s pathway plan understand their responsibility to make arrangements for secure storage of documents containing personal information about care leavers. Local authorities have a duty to retain records for 75 years from the birth of a child. Under the Data Protection Act 1998, people who were looked after have a right of access to personal information held by their responsible local authority, fostering service et cetera.

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[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I am pleased to inform noble Lords that the department is also funding Catch22 to deliver a project on improving support to care leavers from children’s homes, including looking at how providers can offer an environment in which young people from children’s homes can benefit from staying put-type arrangements.

On the question of 16 and 17 year-old care leavers returning to care, the statutory framework states:

“Local authorities should use joint protocols to ensure that: there is flexibility to enable young people to return to more supported accommodation if they are not coping with independent living … Provision and partnerships should be developed in such a way as to permit young people to move to other accommodation in a crisis, including returning to more supportive accommodation if appropriate”.

We are also planning to change the law so that directors of children’s services sign off decisions for 16 and 17 year-olds leaving care. We think that such a move will ensure that young people leave care when they are fully ready. We believe, therefore, that we do not need to impose new duties on local authorities, but need to ensure that all local authorities use good practice. Again, the new Ofsted inspection framework will lead to support for care leavers being given more scrutiny. I hope that the course of action that I have outlined will reassure the noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady Massey, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott. I urge that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Lord Northbourne]

My Lords, the noble Lord has said many times that local authorities should do this, that and the other, but we all know that some local authorities are under tremendous pressure and have difficulty in finding adequate social workers as they do not have enough money. Some of us were wondering whether the Government have sanctions to ensure that local authorities do it. What provisions are there for ensuring that it happens? I believe that Ofsted has to report on it but I am not sure.

[Lord Nash]

If the local authority has a poor Ofsted inspection on this matter, we can and will intervene. There is a specific section on care leavers.

[Lord Northbourne]

I thank the Minister.

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[Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in this group—in particular my noble friend Lord Touhig’s amendment—but I very much support the point made by my noble friend Lady Massey about the need to evaluate. That is a theme throughout the considerations of this Committee. It is not that nobody has thought of doing the right thing but that we have not been good enough in implementation and monitoring, and in amending what we do in the light of the evidence. That is why that amendment is important and is one that we should pursue.

My comments will be in particular about the pupil premium. It is a brilliant little idea. I admit that when I first looked at the Bill and when we were discussing it at Second Reading, I could not be against the notion of the virtual school head but it did not quite ring right with me. I was not against it but I was just not sure that it would have any impact. Perhaps those local authorities that have voluntarily carried it out and feel they own it will make a success of it. My worry was that once you made it statutory throughout the nation, it would become just a job to be done and a box to be ticked. It needed some sort of bite beneath it that would give it teeth and make sure that something happened. I did not raise this at Second Reading because I could not think of anything at the time, but I think that the pupil premium might be one of those things that means that schools and other places in the education system have to sit up and listen because there is a control of resource in someone else’s hands. That might just give the edge to this post, new as it is, as it starts its contribution to education.

There are perhaps one or two other reasons. My noble friend Lord Touhig was right to say that the evidence at the moment is that some schools are not spending the money to greatest effect. Many are, and there are now lots of things that will help them spend the pupil premium to great effect, such as the toolkit. A lot of good work is being done by Ofsted and a lot of people. My worry is that this could be one of the cases where the group of people on whom it is spent least effectively are those children who are looked after. They seem to miss out on every bit of the system. This gives us a chance to make sure that in this we actually give them a head start.

I envisage that those people who are virtual heads could build up a body of expertise and experience about how best to spend the pupil premium. In that way, they could be champions of spending quite a significant amount of money. I am sure that teachers throughout schools in all local authorities might then look to them for advice. I trust that they will do it carefully. I would sooner the amendment said “in partnership with schools” because I do not think it will work unless it is in partnership with schools. Perhaps after consideration here, if it were to be brought back on Report, my noble friend Lord Touhig and others might wish to reflect on that. However, it is a really good addition to what is basically a good idea—the virtual school head. Until this amendment, they ran the risk of not having any teeth to do their work.

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I am delighted by the cross-party support which Clause 9 has attracted. In spite of the modest progress in recent years in the attainment of looked-after children, progress is nowhere near what it needs to be. That is why we have decided to make the role of the virtual school head statutory, so that all local authorities are required to appoint a dedicated officer to discharge its duty to promote the educational achievement of the children it looks after.

Natasha Finlayson, of the Who Cares? Trust has said:

“Virtual school heads have been shown to have a positive effect on the attainment of young people in care”.

Ofsted’s thematic inspection of the role of virtual school heads published last year found that, where the role works well, it has a positive—some might go as far as to say transformative—effect. One of Ofsted’s key findings in that report referred to the very effective support virtual school heads provide. That support not only made a difference to children’s educational progress but often enhanced the stability of their placements and had a positive impact on their emotional well-being. Every inspection report of local authorities will in future, from November, include how virtual school heads are improving outcomes for looked-after children

On the aim of Amendment 36, I am sympathetic to the motivation of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris. If we want to maximise the benefits of pupil premium funding it is right to expect the virtual school head to have a role. As looked-after children will attract a pupil premium plus of £1,900 in 2014-15, dialogue between schools and virtual school heads will be vital.

We have therefore signalled our plans to extend the role of the virtual school head to work with schools to manage the pupil premium plus and ensure that the money is spent on securing the best educational support for children in care. Discussions between the school and local authority on the content of a child’s personal education plan and how the pupil premium will be used to support meeting the needs set out in that plan are crucial. That is a message that we intend strongly to emphasise in guidance.

I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the role of the virtual school head in relation to care leavers. We know that their educational outcomes are not good enough compared to their peers and I recognise entirely how important it is that someone is there to support care leavers who are in, or who wish to return to, education. I can see therefore why there are calls to extend the role of the virtual school head to cover care leavers. In a number of local authorities, the virtual school head’s remit includes some overlap with care leaver services.

Although I share the objective of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, in the amendment, I believe that addressing the educational needs of care leavers will not necessarily be met by adding a new duty to Section 23B. Extending in statute the role of the virtual school head to care leavers too widely risks undermining the very reason we are making the role statutory: to redouble our efforts to narrow the intractable attainment gap between what looked-after children achieve compared to their peers. If we extend the role of the virtual school head, it would add significant burdens to the local authority and the person undertaking that role and would dilute the impact of the role. We do not wish to do that.

I do not wish to appear complacent on this point. Supporting care leavers to stay in education and training is vital. That is why we have extended local authority responsibilities to care leavers up to the age of 25, where they are in education and training.

Under its new inspection framework, Ofsted will be looking at the quality of care leavers’ services and whether they have access to appropriate education and employment opportunities, including work experience and apprenticeships. They are encouraged and supported to continue their education and training, including those aged 21 to 24. Care leavers are progressing well and achieving their full potential through life choices, either in their attainment in further and higher education or in their chosen career or occupation.

If we are changing legislation, we have to be really sure that the changes are for the better and we have to have evidence of impact. We know that the virtual school head has had an impact on looked-after children nationally, and we cannot risk diluting that. There are other ways to ensure that the support that care leavers get to continue their education and training takes place.

I hope that I have provided reassurances to the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, of our commitment to improving outcomes for all looked-after children and care leavers, and that they will join me in welcoming our recent announcement on the pupil premium plus and withdraw their amendment.

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[Baroness Hughes of Stretford]

My Lords, I do not want to delay the Committee but I want to make a few quick comments in support of this amendment. It is very dear to my heart, as I was Minister of State for Children when we instituted the pilots to which several noble Lords have referred. One reason we did that was because, in the White Paper we wrote at that time, I felt strongly that one of our guiding principles in going forward and trying to improve the situation for children in care—a view shared by members of the Committee—was that we should provide them, as far as possible, with the same opportunities that we would want for our own children. As so many noble Lords have said, we have seen a social change over the last 20 years in that our young adult children do not leave home at 16, 17 or 18. Even if they go to university, their bedroom is still there and they come back. They often come back after they have done their studies and they now do not leave home until, on average, their mid-twenties. When the state is the parent, we have to aspire to the same opportunity for those children for whom we are collectively responsible. This is one of the most compelling reasons why we should extend these pilots and make them national.

The benefits to the young people in the pilots have already been well expressed and I will not rehearse them. There is, of course, a cost. The Department for Education has estimated, on the basis of the pilots, that the cost of instituting Staying Put nationally would be £2.7 million. I know that it does not work out as an average because some local authorities have more children in care than others, but, on average, that is £18,000 per annum, per local authority—not per child or per placement: per local authority. So the costs, relative to the benefits, are very small and, as we have heard, there are additional savings to the state from some of the state-funded benefits and support that would have been reduced in the pilots.

The Minister in reply to the previous debate said that helping care leavers to stay in education and training was vital. He also said that when the legislation is being changed, we need evidence of impact. I put it to the Minister that this particular proposal satisfies both of those criteria. If we were in government, and if we are in government again, this is something we would definitely be looking at to see if we could fund because the costs relative to the benefits are also small. I hope the Minister will consider this favourably.

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to debate the important subject of how local authorities support care leavers. I fully understand concerns raised by noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Baronesses, Lady Young, Lady Massey, Lady Morgan and Lady Howarth, the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and my noble friends Lord Storey, Lady Howe and Lady Walmsley, and many external parties about the ongoing support for care leavers. As the noble Earl has said, we have had the opportunity of discussing this matter privately on a couple of occasions recently. I look forward to further discussions with him on this matter as he knows I also feel strongly on this subject.

We have emphasised the importance of staying put in revised statutory guidance, because we recognise that for many young people the ability to stay on with their former foster carers, particularly when they are in further and higher education, is the right decision. The Minister for Children and Families wrote to all directors of children’s services last October, encouraging them to prioritise their staying put arrangements, so that all young people who wanted to could benefit from this provision. I accept there is more to do. Naturally we are disappointed that the 2013 statistical returns from local authorities show only a marginal increase in young people in staying put provision. However, we should recognise that these figures collected by local authorities are a snapshot at 19 and they run only until March 2013, so there is not much time to see the impact of the actions we have taken since 2012. Moreover, they do not tell us about the number of young people who might be benefiting from this provision from the age of 18, and who will leave this arrangement before they turn 19. From next year the department will be collecting data at age 18, 20 and 21, and will be able to see from 2014 how many young people are benefiting from this provision before and after the age of 19.

Our approach is and has been to improve practice. We are continuing to look for ways to promote and encourage this. We have already worked with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Department for Work and Pensions to issue practical guidance on staying put to help carers and local authorities around tax and benefit issues. As I have already said, the revised Ofsted inspection framework that comes into practice in November has a specific focus on the quality of leaving care services. A focus on the care leaver assessment will be on accommodation, and inspectors will consider staying put opportunities. Being able to stay in placements beyond 18 is mentioned within one of the grade descriptors of the care leavers’ judgement. We will monitor closely the reports on these inspections and feedback from care leavers, and expect to see significant improvements in 2014 and 2015 in the number of young people staying put. In addition, through our work with the National Care Advisory Service, my department will encourage local authorities to share effective practice where they are making good progress in this respect. While doing everything that we can to promote staying put, we must recognise that this sort of provision will not be appropriate for all young people. Care leavers, like their peers, have different needs, and attitudes regarding their transition to adulthood. The crucial point is that young people should be offered a range of placements that are safe and suitable, and meet their individual needs. I want to reassure noble Lords that the Government want to encourage all looked-after children to stay in care until they are 18 and beyond, where this is the right choice for them. We want to do everything we can for all care leavers.

I recognise the strength of feeling expressed today, and wish to take the issue away to consider further what more we can do to increase the numbers of young people in staying-put arrangements. I understand that noble Lords feel there is a case that all we are doing is not enough. I have asked my officials to work further with the Fostering Network and others on this issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, mentioned a figure of £2.5 million, which is no longer our view of the figure, although it is a figure that the Fostering Network has recently come up with. We believe the figure is considerably higher, but we will be working with the Fostering Network to see if we can pin this figure down further. I would be pleased to discuss this issue further with the noble Earl over the coming weeks.

I hope that what I have said reassures noble Lords of our commitment to this issue and I therefore urge the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and my noble friends Lady Sharp and Lady Walmsley not to press their amendment.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I thank the Minister for his reply. Before thanking colleagues, perhaps I may put a few questions on the detail to the Minister. With regard to the timescale, he was good enough in his comments just now to say that he expected a significant increase in the next two years in the number of young people staying put. Perhaps he would like to write to me with a clearer timescale. My concern is that unless we move quickly on this in the next one, two, three or four years, hundreds of young people will miss out on a pathway which we know would do them a lot of good and mean that they would have much better outcomes. If the Minister wishes to take a different approach, the voluntary approach, I should be grateful if he could make it clear when he hopes to achieve the target of 25%, which I think is the government target. It would also be helpful to know what steps the Government will take if that target is not reached or if good progress is not made in that direction. Those are just a couple of questions. He may prefer to write to me rather than answer them now.

[Lord Nash]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for his further questions. We expect to see an increase to 10% in 2014 and 25% in 2015 but, as I said, I look forward to discussing the whole issue with him, officials and the Fostering Network shortly.

[The Earl of Listowel]

I thank the Minister. I thank all colleagues for their support for the amendment. It is heartening for me to hear that depth of support from across the Committee. If I may say so, it was most interesting to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, about his experience today in an adult court. It was not at all surprising.

I should have made clear a couple of things in my opening remarks. First, 11 local authorities took part in the pilots to begin with. Then two of them merged, so it became 10. That is the reason for the disparity between the comments made by my noble friend Lady Young and me about the number of local authorities in the pilot evaluation. I also omitted to say that some of the local authorities taking part in the evaluation were selecting young people who work in education or training, so that does not give us as clear a picture about the successful outcome as one might like. I think that it is still very clear, but I want your Lordships to be aware that there was a difficulty there in terms of the group used in the pilots.

I welcome what the Minister has said. Of course, the measures that he is proposing are untried. We have seen only a marginal improvement in the past year. My concern is that in the years to come—the next one, two, three or four years—if the movement is too slow, hundreds of children will miss out on an education, a training or employment and go down much worse pathways if we do not grab the nettle and act now. I look forward to studying what the Minister said and to further conversations before Report.

I reiterate once more how grateful I am to noble Lords across the Committee for their support and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.