Birth of a son to Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cambridge

Lord McNally Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition have moved and seconded this Address with eloquence and elegance. It is only left for me from these Benches, with a sense of honour and privilege, to wish the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and their son a long and happy life in the service of this country.

Death of a Member: Baroness Thatcher

Lord McNally Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, I begin by following on from what the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition have said in associating these Benches with condolences to Baroness Thatcher’s immediate family. I will also tie in something the Leader of the House said with a personal reminiscence. Due to some serendipity, for about five years at the State Opening of Parliament I found myself sitting on the Bench opposite next to Mrs Thatcher and spending time with her as we awaited the Queen’s arrival. The one thing I want to share with the House took place in the year her husband died, when she had already had a number of minor strokes and did not speak a great deal. She suddenly turned to me and said, “My husband died earlier this year”. I said, “Yes, Baroness Thatcher, I know”. She paused again and then said, “I miss him very much”. That tremendous partnership between Baroness Thatcher and her husband, which was so much a factor in her own political life, is remembered today.

There are times when, for all the grandeur of the surroundings of this House, we have to play second fiddle to activities down the Corridor. Today, however, although the tributes in the other place will no doubt be eloquent and apposite, it is in this Chamber, as the Leader of the House has reminded us, that we will hear the memories and judgments of those who experienced first hand the Thatcher phenomenon. If one considers the number of people whom she sacked, promoted, defeated or berated, they must make up a goodly number of those present in the House today. In short, the importance of the next couple of hours is that not only does this House know where the bodies are buried but some of the bodies are present here.

In January 1965, when paying tribute to the life of Sir Winston Churchill, Harold Wilson referred to,

“the sullen feet of marching men in Tonypandy”—

a reminder that Churchill, in a long life, had sometimes been at the heart of bitter social conflict, as well as showing great leadership in the times of national crisis. So it was with Margaret Thatcher, and that reality was reflected in the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall. I quote again from Harold Wilson’s tribute to Churchill. He said that,

“the tempestuous years are over; the years of appraisal are yet to come”.—[Official Report, Commons, 25/1/65; col. 672.]

I shall not attempt such an appraisal today. Instead, I shall rely on two perspectives given not at the time of her death but some years ago.

Seven years ago, the New Statesman invited its readers to nominate their “heroes of our time”. Somewhat to the surprise and embarrassment of the New Statesman, Baroness Thatcher was the highest-rated British politician. The paper explained this result as being due to the fact that no one was in any doubt about what Mrs Thatcher stood for and what she believed in, and it was those qualities of steadfastness and clarity of purpose which had been recognised by the New Statesman readers.

My second assessment comes from another surprising source. As a Member of the other place in 1982, I was present for two exchanges that took place between Enoch Powell and Mrs Thatcher. To appreciate fully the quotations that I am about to give, your Lordships will have to imagine that slightly nasal, Black Country twang in which Mr Powell spoke, but which I shall not try to imitate. The first is Enoch Powell addressing Mrs Thatcher after the Falkland Islands had been invaded. Speaking on 3 April in the House of Commons, he said:

“The Prime Minister, shortly after she came into office, received a soubriquet as the ‘Iron Lady’. It arose in the context of remarks which she made about defence against the Soviet Union and its allies; but there was no reason to suppose that the right hon. Lady did not welcome and, indeed, take pride in that description. In the next week or two this House, the nation and the right hon. Lady herself will learn of what metal she is made”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/4/82; col. 644.]

My second quotation is from some 10 weeks later— 17 June 1982—after the British victory in the Falklands war. Enoch Powell said:

“Is the right hon. Lady aware that the report has now been received from the public analyst on a certain substance recently subjected to analysis and that I have obtained a copy of the report? It shows that the substance under test consisted of ferrous matter of the highest quality, that it is of exceptional tensile strength, is highly resistant to wear and tear and to stress, and may be used with advantage for all national purposes”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/6/82; col. 1082.]

That was the only time in my experience that Enoch Powell made a joke.

There is no need to airbrush out of history or to ignore the fact that most of us on these Benches spent a good deal of our political lives fiercely opposing many aspects of what became known as “Thatcherism”. However, that does not prevent us recognising the qualities that were highlighted both by the New Statesman and by Enoch Powell—qualities that have quite rightly brought us together today to pay due respect and proper tribute to Margaret Thatcher as a figure of enduring importance in our national life.

Leader of the House

Lord McNally Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, in leading the tributes to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, I am able to be the first to welcome formally as his successor the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford. The noble Lord, Lord Hill, is already very well regarded and liked by this House, and I both welcome his very imaginative appointment and look forward to working with him closely in the future, but he has a very hard act to follow. The departure from the Front Bench of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is a moment of great significance for this House. We shall all miss him, and especially so at great occasions, such as Prorogation, through the clerk not having to read out his full name, as that will mean that the Prorogation ceremony will be a good deal shorter.

A former Member of this House, Lord Wilson of Rievaulx—Harold Wilson as was—once very acutely observed that, “A week is a long time in politics”. Having done 25 years on the Conservative Front Bench, I calculate that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has done 1,300 weeks in politics, which is a very long time indeed. In that time, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has covered the ground. He entered government in 1988, appointed by the now noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, as a junior Whip in the old Department of Trade and Industry. There, as I understand it, he met a very young researcher from the Conservative Research Department called David Cameron, a contact which has clearly stood him in very good stead.

Indeed, if my memory serves me correctly, when, after the inconclusive result of the 2010 general election, David Cameron entered a room full of journalists to make his,

“big, open and comprehensive offer”,

to the Liberal Democrats, slipping into the room beside him—the only person to do so—was the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. So when the Prime Minister yesterday said in response to the resignation of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that to him personally he had always been a,

“staunch friend and wise counsel”,

I suspect that was the heartfelt truth.

I am less confident about just how comfortable the noble Lord has been with the results of that big, open and comprehensive offer—that is, the coalition. When it was put to him on “Channel 4 News” last night that he had been reported as saying he despaired that the coalition had broken down in the House of Lords he didn’t quite knock the story down completely when he replied:

“I’m sure that at times … over the … last 18 months I might well have said that.”

Of course, one of the most difficult issues that he has had to deal with since coming into government, again in the coalition, has been House of Lords reform, and in particular the exciting and very well thought-through proposals from his now ex-Cabinet colleague, the Deputy Prime Minister. Tom Strathclyde is, of course, a natural House of Lords reformer. He has shown nothing but utter loyalty to the Government’s now-abandoned proposals for an all or mainly elected House of Lords. We on these Benches of course completely believed him, and saw no signs at all of one of the biggest political winks in parliamentary history. All I would report is the view of one Member of this House from his own Benches who said, this morning, about the noble Lord and Lords reform: “There were times when Tom’s tongue was so far in his cheek that it was almost coming out of his ear”. As another of the noble Lord’s colleagues, the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, once so brilliantly put it: they might very well say that, but we on this side of the House could not possibly comment.

The noble Lord has had a long and highly distinguished political career. Indeed, he was Leader of the Opposition in your Lordships’ House for an astonishing 14 years, serving four leaders of his party in the Commons from 1998 to 2010 among the total of six Tory leaders he has served under. As Leader of the Opposition now, I both admire and am staggered by his tenacity, which was signalled very early on in his political career when in 1983 he bravely stood in the Conservative interest as an MEP candidate in Merseyside East. As natural a Scouser as he is a Lords reformer, sadly the noble Lord did not succeed on that occasion, although I am sure the European yearnings which that effort clearly showed will place him naturally in line with his mentor, the Prime Minister, when he makes his long-awaited speech on Europe.

Both as Leader of the Opposition and leader of his own party in Government, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, has always been a highly capable political operator, a straight dealer and a man of his word. Even so there have been difficult times, of course, but it really cannot have been part of the coalition’s plan for this House, with the coalition’s huge inbuilt political majority, that we on these Benches and others would defeat the Government 59 times so far since May 2010. If on occasion this has led the noble Lord to be pretty robust in his dealings with the House, his own wit and charm, and sometimes pretty old-fashioned bluster, have more than got him through.

I would say that the noble Lord has always been personally warm and friendly to me in our private dealings, even when texting to inform me that the following day’s business has been pulled. I thank him now for his judgment, his trust, his confidences and his counsel. Among the most difficult times we have seen in recent years were the issues we faced over allowances and Peers’ conduct. As leaders throughout that difficult period, we both worked hard to make sure that there was not the slenderest of cigarette papers between us in the service of the House. He played a particularly important role at a decisive moment in getting the new allowances arrangements agreed.

It is true that some of the noble Lord’s strongest fans have not always been found among some of my colleagues on these Benches, especially when he has picked individuals up personally on points in the Chamber. However, politics can be a rough old trade and there can be no doubt that the noble Lord has served his beloved Conservative Party and, in his public duties, the people of this country well and loyally. In particular, I know that noble Lords will want it said that he has served this House well and loyally. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, will be greatly missed and from these Benches we thank him for all he has done. We wish him well in his future life beyond Front-Bench politics and we look forward to his maintaining strong and deep connections with your Lordships’ House from a different perspective to his extraordinary contribution from the Front Bench during a quarter of a century of dedicated service.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, when Talleyrand died and Metternich received a telegram saying, “Talleyrand is dead”, he pondered and thought, “Now what does he mean by this?”. There has been something of a similar reaction to the resignation of my noble friend. After his 14 years as a leader in this House and 25 years on the Front Bench, our great media have had to speculate on why he is going. There was even an outrageous suggestion in some of the papers that he could no longer tolerate working with the Liberal Democrats. As my noble friends will confirm, there have been no more harmonious meetings than when Tom Strathclyde has come to give the Liberal Democrats one of his regular pep talks. Indeed, if he were so minded, I would be able to persuade two or three of my friends to make way for him here on our Benches.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, mentioned the name. What is in a name? Certainly not much for the William Hickey column of the Daily Express, which says that “Charlie Strathclyde” has departed as the leader. One would have thought that it would get the name right. I had to face—as the noble Baroness said—the annual humiliation at Prorogation when the clerk would read out Thomas Galloway Dunlop du Roy de Blicquy Strathclyde and Tom McNally. At one time I thought of adding Plantagenet just to give it a bit of class.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord McNally Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lady Saltoun of Abernethy]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

I think we will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Saltoun.

[Lady Saltoun of Abernethy]

My Lords, what makes the Government think that, if this House is to continue to do what it is doing at present, 300 Members will be sufficient to service the committees and the offices that have to be serviced? I have worked out that 300 would not be nearly enough and that it would take 450 Members to do the job. Would the noble Lord care to comment?

House of Lords: Reform

Lord McNally Excerpts

Thursday 21st June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

I think that we will hear from my noble friend Lord Tyler—and noble Lords should have a look at the third Question that we are coming to.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, returning to the original Question, can my noble friend assure the House that when an estimate is prepared in the light of the Government’s Bill in a few weeks’ time, we will have a true comparison of the future likely costs of not reforming the House along the lines of the Government’s Bill?

Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees

Lord McNally Excerpts

Wednesday 9th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I, too, warmly welcome to the role of Deputy Chairman of Committees the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho. I know that his long-standing interest in and involvement with Europe will stand him in good stead for the job, as of course it did for the noble Lord, Lord Roper. He has extraordinary and deep knowledge, and he is held in the highest regard throughout the European Union as well as in this House. The noble Lord, Lord Roper, has steered the European Union Committee with his customary skill, knowledge and courtesy throughout his period as its chair. He has been applying all of those qualities to managing the House’s current proposals to do some redrawing of its committees with considerable success. I know that that has caused the noble Lord and members of the committee pain, but I am grateful for the way in which he carried out the change.

We on these Benches, where, we suspect, despite his shift 30 years ago, perhaps part of his heart still lies, thank him for all that he has done and we wish him well for the future.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Roper, has made a journey not unlike my own, to which the noble Baroness has just referred. I am still smarting from that stiletto in the ribs delivered some time ago by the noble Lord, Lord Cope. I would only remind him of the story of the young Conservative candidate fighting his first election in one of the Welsh valley seats who started his adoption meeting by saying, “I was a born a Tory, I am a Tory, and I will die a Tory”, and a voice came from the back saying, “Why, man, have you no ambitions?”. Certainly I have no ambitions to join the Conservative Party but I am very pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Roper, back on our Benches.

I am very proud of the way the noble Lord has carried out the chairmanship of the European Union Committee. I think all sides of the House take pleasure in the reputation that that committee has for its diligence and objectivity in dealing with the issues of Europe, and much of that has been, over the last few years, due to the skill of John Roper. As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, indicated, that skill comes from a deep and long involvement in European affairs as an academic and a politician, and we have all benefited from it.

As for the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, when the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, e-mailed me to say that he would be asking the noble Lord to take this job, I replied with just one word: “Excellent”, and that is what I think it is—excellent.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, on behalf of the Cross-Bench group, I also welcome the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho, to this most important post. I also associate myself with the very warm tributes that have been paid to the noble Lord, Lord Roper.

The European credentials of the noble Lord, Lord Roper, run very deep. Visitors to the European Parliament or the Council of Europe, both in Strasbourg, may well have noticed the boulevard du Président Edwards, which runs from the Palais de l’Europe beside the beautiful Orangerie park. Understandably, they may have wondered exactly who was Président Edwards. Many of you will know that he was John Edwards, a Labour MP, who in 1959 became the president of the Assembly of the Council of Europe, and very sadly died in office that same year. John Edwards was the father-in-law of the noble Lord, Lord Roper, so the noble Lord’s credentials could not have been better.

The noble Lord, Lord Roper, has handled with great skill and tenacity a number of matters arising particularly from the Lisbon treaty, and a whole range of matters in the area between the national parliaments and the European Parliament. He has shown great personal qualities and determination. Only last week in Warsaw—and before that, in Copenhagen—he received a very warm welcome from delegates, who recognised not only the contribution he had made but his commitment and enthusiasm for the task.

This House has been extremely well served by the noble Lord, Lord Roper, and we thank him for that most warmly and wish his successor great success.

Chairman of Committees

Lord McNally Excerpts

Wednesday 9th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I echo the words of the Leader of the House and welcome the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, as the new Lord Chairman. He will be a loss to these Benches but, I am sure, a fine Lord Chairman. Of course, he has a hard act to follow. The noble Lord, Lord Brabazon of Tara, was Lord Chairman of your Lordships’ House for all the time that I have been a Member, and for a fair deal longer. The fact that he will no longer be Lord Chairman seems rather strange to many of us.

In his time as Lord Chairman, he steered the House’s internal and domestic side through many difficulties, but he rose to all the challenges. He was a particular stalwart a few years ago when the House was in the middle of a set of events that led eventually to our adoption of a new system of financial support for Members. Not so long ago he also became an unlikely star of YouTube—but of course not the House’s only star as he was joined shortly afterwards by the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, whose turn was also something of a must-watch.

The noble Lord served this House loyally, with great dedication and with huge effort as Chairman of Committees. I know that the officials and staff of the House, like us, enjoyed working with him and held him in high regard. On behalf of these Benches, I thank him for all that he did for the House, and give him our warmest good wishes for the future.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I rise with some trepidation to welcome the elevation of the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, because the last time I commented in this House on the noble Lord I said that he brought a “superficial academic authority” to his remarks. I make it clear that this was a moment of impulse, instantly regretted, and hope it will not influence my relations with him in his new, elevated position.

I have no problem at all in paying great tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon. I always thought that Brabs brought to his position all the touch and authority of a housemaster at a minor public school—which is exactly what the House of Lords needs in a Chairman of Committees. Noble Lords may get passionate about political issues, but they should see Brabs trying to steer through the introduction of an electronic pass system on the doors, or a new way of going in and out of the car park, or a safe way of crossing from Millbank. This required skill of the highest political order and was always done from the Dispatch Box with the most benign authority. It has been a pleasure to work with him over these years and I am pleased to pay this tribute to his quiet skills, for which the whole House is in his debt.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, on behalf of my colleagues in the Cross-Bench group, I associate myself with the well-deserved tributes to the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, during 10 years of quite outstanding service as Chairman of Committees. Those who have spoken before me are, of course, much better qualified than I to record his many achievements, but what is beyond doubt is that the noble Lord has been in that role throughout a period of considerable change and some unexpected—and, indeed, some unwelcome—challenges.

Beyond the big events with which noble Lords are familiar, I was struck by the noble Lord’s attention to detail. For example, one morning when I came into the building I saw him attending to the door that leads down to the River Room in such a way that I thought that he might be doing his early morning prayers. I could not resist asking him what he was doing, and he then gave me a detailed account of how the locking mechanism on that door was malfunctioning. That attention to detail has served this House to great benefit, most of all in big projects such as Millbank House, to which reference has already been made. The success of that project was due in no small measure to the noble Lord’s conscientious and careful work. It is his equable temperament and good humour that made him so well qualified to address other taxing challenges of immense importance to the House.

However, there are many other unrecorded issues that deserve mention. Many noble Lords will remember the way in which the noble Lord addressed matters such as mice and moths, and even the origin of the bacon that is served at breakfast in this House. Indeed, your Lordships may recall that at the time of the mice in 2010, a report in the Telegraph referred to the noble Lord in the following terms:

“P G Wodehouse, Pinter, Monty Python—none of them could equal Lord Brabazon of Tara for the dry, incisive, and yet irresistibly comic touch with which, as Chairman of Committees … he responded to questions about this most pressing of national problems”.

There is one other matter which would repay dwelling upon for a moment. In referring to it, I invite noble Lords to imagine the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, as he was, without a grey hair in his head. Hold that image in your mind—the noble Lord without a grey hair—because that is how he was before the Peers’ car park was landed on his plate.

We are all extremely grateful to the noble Lord for a job well done. We welcome most warmly his successor, the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, and wish him well in this important post.

Her Majesty The Queen’s Diamond Jubilee

Lord McNally Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, I readily associate myself and the Liberal Democrat Benches with these tributes.

The Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition have spoken about the Queen’s role as head of state, her service to this country and the immense changes seen in Britain over the past 60 years. It is not only in Britain that we have seen change. When the Queen came to the Throne she still reigned over an empire. The peaceful transition from colonies to a commonwealth of free nations is a legacy in which she has played no small part. From that spine-tingling dedication of self to service by the young Princess Elizabeth in Africa over 60 years ago, to a message to the Commonwealth earlier this week in Westminster Abbey, the Queen has been the inspiration and the personification of the Commonwealth which, in her words this week in the Abbey, can,

“draw us together, stronger and better than before”.

One aspect of Her Majesty’s work of which everyone is aware is the constant round of making and receiving visits. Anyone who has ever done a school prize-giving knows how much time and effort goes into making the day special for those you are meeting and greeting. The ready smile, the handshake, the interested question look all so easy and yet require care and preparation to ensure that those on the receiving end are left with lifetime memories of “the day I met the Queen”.

There is one passion that the Queen shares with me and millions of others. Anyone who has ever seen a photograph of her at a horserace meeting knows that she loves the horses. Last year, the Sun reported with absolute precision that the Queen was going to bet £10 on Carlton House, her horse in the Derby. How they could be so sure of the fact, one can only speculate.

In 2001, we in this House made the faux pas of holding the State Opening of Parliament in Ascot week. Only the fact that the Irish stagecoach broke the speed limit returning down the Mall allowed Her Majesty to be in Ascot in time for the 2.30. This time there is no such clash, and we know that on 2 June she will be at Epsom for the Jubilee Derby. After last year’s disappointment with Carlton House, which came third, I do not think Her Majesty has a runner this year. For the romantics among us, I suggest Imperial Monarch—but I think my noble friend Lord Sassoon should put the Treasury’s money on Camelot.

As the Leader of the Opposition said, any tribute to the Queen should also be associated with Prince Philip, who has been by her side throughout this period. I also say, as a son of the red rose county, what a pleasure it is that both the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition recall their time as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. My tribute is not only to the Queen but to “the Queen, the Duke of Lancaster”, and I am proud to make it.

European Council

Lord McNally Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, this sounds very much like a speech for the coming debate.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord has to sit down.

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Lord McNally]

This is a Question Time. Even though we have 40 minutes, we have already used five and are only on the second question. In fairness to the whole House, I think that the noble Lord should now sit down.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

May I ask one question of tactics? I am grateful to the noble Lord. Will he confirm that, exactly 20 years ago, John Major secured the social opt-out and the euro opt-out by attaching his conditions to the conclusion of the negotiation, where unanimity is required, and not to the convening of a negotiation, for which only a simple majority is required?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lawson of Blaby]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I think that it is the turn of the Labour Party, and then we will come back to the Conservatives.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

Lord Pearson.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, my gratitude is exceeded only by my surprise. I trust that the Leader of the House will forgive me if I congratulate the Prime Minister on his courage in standing alone and on taking what I hope will be the first small step towards the lifeboats on the “Titanic” which is the EU. I have two short questions. First, where do the Government now stand on the 49 proposals for new Brussels legislation in the financial area, some of which will be very serious for our financial industries and taxpayers, and which are already in the pipeline under qualified majority voting? Secondly, the noble Lord has said that we do not know what is on the way, so do not yet know the precise answer, but can he confirm that the other EU countries cannot use the institutions of the whole EU to further their ill-fated plans to prop up the euro without our consent?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, only the noble Lord could come out with that particular quip. Of course we feared the dangers to our national interests or we would not have said what we did. It takes two to agree but it also takes two to disagree. The other 26 could have wholly accepted that we had a deep concern about our national interest and agreed with us. Then there would have been a treaty of the 27.

[Lord McNally]

I am trying to keep count here. We will have the Liberal Democrats and then the Cross-Benchers.

Legislation

Lord McNally Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Haskel]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Haskel.

[Lord Haskel]

The Leader of the House says there are fewer pages enacted. Is this because the legislation is poorly drafted and requires a lot of work by your Lordships?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, my noble friend should not feel unduly exposed in this because the problem is of great antiquity. Does he know that Tacitus said in silver Rome that whereas formerly we suffered from crimes, today we suffer from laws. Dean Swift began trying to find a solution when he said that in Brobdingnag:

“No laws of that country must exceed in words the number of letters in their alphabet; but few of them extend even to that length. They are expressed in the most plain and simple terms, so that people are not mercurial enough to discover above one interpretation”.

In Brobdingnag, of course, to write a comment upon any law was a capital crime.

Seriously, does the noble Lord recall that under the guidance of Lord Hailsham, for example, and his predecessor, Reginald Manningham-Buller, within the Cabinet structure there was severe constant scrutiny of the very problem with which the House is now concerned? It does need to be taken seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I think that it is the turn of the Cross Benches—the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar.

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is desirable to have an automatic review of legislation after three to five years, to measure its effectiveness?