Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Lord McKenzie of Luton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

1: Clause 1, page 1, line 4, leave out “by 1%”

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I will also speak to Amendments 5, 7 and 10 in this group. These amendments stand in my name and in those of my noble friend Lady Sherlock, the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester. I say at the start that we view the amendments as consequential on Amendment 1, and we are advised that should these amendments be carried, they do not pre-empt a discussion on the subsequent amendments on the Marshalled List.

Amendments 1 and 7 would remove the reference to 1% in Clauses 1 and 2, and hence would remove the 1% cap on the uprating of the relevant sums and amounts. Amendments 5 and 10 would delete the prohibition on uprating such sums and amounts under the annual uprating of benefits and tax credits. As we explained in Committee, we fully intend these amendments to negate the fundamental purpose of this Bill, which is to lock in real-terms cuts to a range of benefits for the two years to March 2016. This follows on from the equivalent cut for next year, which has been implemented by statutory instrument.

The uprating of benefits and tax credits should proceed in accordance with the existing statutory framework, whereby the Secretary of State is required each year to review the rates of various benefits and tax credit components to see whether they have retained their value in relation to the general level of prices. There is no general requirement to fully uprate, but there is an obligation to assess on the basis of up to date information on the cost of living.

On these grounds alone, the Bill is completely unnecessary. If the Government are intent on three years of cuts by 1% uprated, they can use existing mechanisms, just as they have for 2013-14. They would then at least retain some flexibility to revisit the policy, especially if inflation were to surge above currently expected levels. If the Bill stands, there is no certainty about the level of real cuts that have been imposed on some of the most vulnerable people in our country.

The government assertion that committing these cuts to primary legislation is crucial to giving confidence to the markets has no credibility. It is frankly untenable to suggest that by locking into legislation these estimated benefit savings, which amount to less than 0.1% of government spending, the markets will be assured and comforted. It does not seem to have cut any ice with the rating agencies.

Let me reiterate Labour’s position. We will make no commitment now on spending or tax for the next Parliament, and we will set out our spending plans at the time of the next election. However, right now, we would uprate in line with inflation. I will come in a moment to how the Government can plug the hole in their increasingly fragile finances.

This Bill is misdirected on several other counts. We are told by the Secretary of State that cutting benefits and tax credits is necessary in advance of universal credit, as a contribution to fiscal consolidation. However, it does nothing for the deficit or borrowing. Indeed, by withdrawing real resources from low-income families, which of necessity have the highest marginal consumption rates, it is damaging demand. It ignores the IMF warning that the fiscal stabilisers should be allowed to operate. Just last week, the FT joined an increasing chorus of those pointing out that fiscal tightening could raise the debt ratio in the short term, as fiscal gains are partly wiped out by the decline in output.

We also had the spectacle of the Prime Minister being rebuked by the OBR for asserting that the Government’s debt-reduction programme had not affected growth. Its justification is supposed to be that there needs to be some correction for the fact that benefits have been uprated at a faster rate than earnings over the past five years: essentially, that those out of work have done better than those in work. It is perverse, therefore, that some two-thirds of those hurt by the 1% restriction are those who are actually in work.

Looking at percentages rather than cash amounts is misleading. One per cent of a small number is a very small number. Indeed, specifically included among the cuts are in-work support such as working tax credits, SSP, SPL and maternity pay, as well as in and out of work benefits such as housing benefit: the very support that enables individuals to sustain employment and manage work and family responsibilities. We are told that the Government are committed to eradicating child poverty, and of course we would accept that child poverty is not only about income levels, but improving income and relative income is an essential component of tackling poverty, and matters are being made worse by this Bill, with another 200,000 children being drawn into poverty. Compared with CPI uprating, this Bill and the 2013-14 order mean that 30% of all families are affected, losing on average £156 a year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, there have been some very powerful speeches in this debate. I am very grateful to all my noble friends for their contributions and for laying out so clearly and eloquently the economic case for this Bill and for what we seek to achieve. As they have been so clear, I will not repeat much of what they have said. However, I will start by making clear to your Lordships’ House that the amendments before us would, in simple terms, remove the commitment to a 1% uprating from the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said in Committee:

“We fully intend these amendments to undermine and negate the purpose of the Bill”.—[Official Report, 25/2/13; col. 855.]

My noble friend Lord Newby said in reply that these are the sort of amendments that equate to,

“a vote against the Bill at Second Reading”.—[Official Report, 25/2/13; col. 866.].

It is important that we understand what these amendments seek to do.

As has been made clear by my noble friends, these are not decisions that we take lightly. I do not deny that they will have impacts on those who receive the benefits in question or that those impacts will not be easy. However, we have made a conscious decision to protect those benefits which reflect the additional costs that disabled people face, while also protecting pensioners through our commitment to the triple lock.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester is right to highlight those in need and I am glad that he does. It is important that we all remember and are conscious of the people affected by some of these changes. However, I ask him and all noble Lords not to forget that, as part of the Government’s wider reforms, we are prioritising resources towards measures and reforms that support families and help to change lives.

Let me name just a few of those measures. We are expanding early-years education to ensure that children have access to early education and to support parents in work. We are attaching additional funding to disadvantaged pupils through the pupil premium, which will rise to £2.5 billion a year by 2014-15. We have protected the schools and NHS budgets to ensure that these vital services continue to support families. More than £1 billion of investment will go into schools. We are introducing universal credit—a new, radically simpler benefit payment designed to ensure that work pays.

As my noble friend Lord Bates already has acknowledged, this last change is about transforming our welfare system. It will significantly increase the incentive that people have to work. Indeed, we estimate that it will lead to up to 300,000 more people moving into work. It is important that we focus on that point for a moment. As my noble friends have already indicated in their speeches, we must not look at the changes that we are discussing today in isolation; we must see them in the wider context of the changes that the Government are making. They reflect the fact that this Government’s focus is on how to help people off benefits and into work.

We need to be aware of the level of support that people can receive while they are on out-of-work benefits. For many, this is supposed to be a temporary state—an interruption between periods of work. By making the system simpler, by reducing the risks from people moving into work and by making work pay, we can reinforce that temporary nature and ensure that more and more people are moving into work. That is what we are seeking to achieve through universal credit and, as I have said, I ask noble Lords to bear these wider changes in mind when considering this Bill and all the amendments that we will debate today.

This Bill is a short-term change, made at a desperately difficult time, as we seek to rebalance the public finances. However, in our other reforms we have made a huge commitment to the long term, a commitment to changing lives through helping people back to work. Although we still have challenges in the labour market, the fact is that more people are moving into work already. Unemployment is falling. Private sector employment is up by more than 1 million since the election and the number of people employed is at its highest level ever.

We are continuing to provide for a 1% increase in these benefit rates. As my noble friends have said, this will mean that the value falls in real terms, which is not a decision that we take lightly, but it is an increase and we must compare this, as some of my noble friends already have, with what is happening elsewhere. Ireland has cut unemployment benefit by 4% a year for two years since 2010. Portugal has cut unemployment benefit by 6%. Spain has cut payments to people who are unemployed for more than six months by 10%. Let me remind noble Lords that the UK’s deficit in 2010 was larger—I repeat, larger—than the latter two countries. I am not saying that that justifies the measures we are discussing today; they are justified by the need to rebalance the public finances. However, it is, I hope, a reminder that these are very difficult times. The actions this Government have taken and continue to take to reduce the deficit are helping to secure economic recovery, but there are still tough decisions to make.

While this group of amendments seeks in simple terms to remove the 1% figure from the Bill, as many of my noble friends have already pointed out, it does not suggest an alternative. It should be noted that if the amendments before us were to pass, they would make it possible for the Government to increase benefits by any amount that they wanted in the years in question, without reference to prices or any specified factors, including uprating by less than 1%. Let us assume that the intention would be to upgrade in line with CPI. That would mean that the £3 billion in savings from the Bill would not be delivered. I appreciate that the decisions we have made in the Bill are not easy. We never claimed that they were. However, they are absolutely necessary. This was made clear by my noble friends, who made contributions that were much more powerful than I could have made.

Let us not forget that the central purpose of the Bill is to set out clear plans on uprating that deliver significant and vital savings that will help us on the road to economic recovery, along which we simply must travel if we are to preserve for the future the kinds of things that we value and from which we will all benefit: a stable economy, a growing labour market and opportunities for the next generation.

When the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, moved the amendment, he said that all the amendments in the group were linked and were consequential one on another. Perhaps it is premature for me to make this point, but I will make it clear that in the Government’s view the amendments are not consequential one on another. If Amendment 1 is agreed, the Government will not oppose Amendment 5. However, we will oppose Amendment 7. It is important to make that clear.

I have made the case for seeing these changes in a wider context, and my noble friends have made powerful contributions about the wider economic context. It is clear that the changes, while painful, are necessary. Therefore I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Low, for his support for the amendments in this group. He made the very important point that we are potentially moving into a period of greater inflation. This point was made last week by the FT, which talked about the risks of stagflation in this country. I also thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester for his support. He posed the key question: how will making these people poorer help the national interest? What we heard from noble Lords who oppose the amendment did not help us on that point.

I say to the Minister and to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, who prayed in aid universal credit, that it would be good to know that universal credit is on track because from everything we hear it is not. Even with universal credit as proposed, we know that something like 1.8 million people will have their benefits from work reduced in comparison to their current position.

I stress that the amendment challenges the locking-in over a three-year period of the restrictions on uprating. Uprating by less than the rate of inflation is a real-terms cut. We should recognise that it is a cut in people’s benefits. The fundamental proposition in the amendment is that these things should be looked at in the normal way on an annual basis by reference to what is happening to prices.

The noble Lord, Lord King, and the Minister said that other countries are cutting benefits. Benefits have been cut in this country, too. Council tax benefit, housing benefit, DLA, ESA and tax credits have been cut by something like £18 billion to date.

[Lord Newby]

Will the noble Lord confirm that no benefits in this country have been cut in cash terms, as they have widely been in the rest of Europe?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Housing benefit is one such benefit. Council tax benefit has been dumped on local authorities with a 10% restriction on funding, which means that people’s support will be cut in cash terms. That is absolutely happening.

I say to the noble Lords, Lord King and Lord Forsyth, that it seemed that the mention of Cyprus was meant to lead us to a conclusion that bears no relation to reality. We are not dealing with a situation here that would take us anywhere close to the situation in Cyprus. We are talking about restrictions on uprating which, on the Government’s own figures, would amount to something like £1.9 billion.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

The Government’s ability even to pay this level of benefit will partly depend on our ability to borrow enough money at low enough rates to continue the policy. Is the noble Lord not aware that there is a big shiver going through the eurozone about the financial situation? It has suddenly come back into the headlines. If it was thought at this moment that the Government were going to deviate from their previously planned approach—if it was voted down by your Lordships’ House—it would have a serious effect. Then the problems faced by some young people and people in poverty at the present time, as spoken to by the right reverend Prelate, could be seriously aggravated. Our job is to try to make the best we can of a very difficult situation.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, of course we are aware of what is going on in Europe, and I shall come on to issues of borrowing in a moment. We are talking here about an amount that is less than 0.1% of total government expenditure. The noble Lord cannot seriously be arguing that taking our position rather than that of the Government would bring the whole edifice crashing down. That simply does not reflect reality.

The problem that the Government have is that because they have failed to deliver growth in the economy there is a real risk—this is what is happening—that their austerity programme is making debt worse. This was again a point made in a very powerful article last week in the FT.

We have heard a great deal about the Labour Government’s record. When the Labour Government left office the economy was growing again and it was the austerity measures which choked off that growth. As to the Labour Government’s record on debt, before the international crisis hit, our debt levels were the second lowest in the G7, lower than when we came into office in 1997, I believe.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am following the noble Lord’s argument very carefully. If he is saying that we can get growth again by spending money uprating benefits in line with inflation, why will he not therefore make the commitment that a Labour Government would do that?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, I make the commitment that we should review on the usual basis at each uprating period. No Government or Opposition immediately prior to a general election are going to pre-empt the programme they would have. The noble Lord knows that full well. He is making a silly political point.

There is a real risk that by cutting back you make the debt situation worse. It depends upon the multiplier. There have been some recent studies which suggest that it is made worse because the multiplier effect would mean that if you did not cut back you could create growth greater than the saving you are seeking to make. We shall hear from the Chancellor tomorrow about his view on borrowing for capital spend, for example. The relative merits of that depend upon the multiplier effect.

Ultimately, the argument in favour of the Government’s Bill as it stands is that it is locking in an unknown. You cannot know in year two or indeed the next year what the rate of inflation will be and you cannot know, therefore, the extent of the cut you are visiting on the poorest people in our country. That is what we object to in this Bill.

We could go on for ever in an economic debate, but I think it is time to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am happy to give way to him if he wants to explain where the money would come from, but I suspect not. A large part of his flock of the clergy will be recipients of benefits because of the wages that they are paid by the Church of England. Everyone is in the same boat here. The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, argues that somehow it is possible to find money which we have not got and that she is proud to support the amendment because of the reduction in the top rate of tax paid by those who she describes as millionaires. I remind her that those people are paying 5% more in tax than they did under her Government. I also remind her that the effect of cutting those high rates of tax has been to increase revenue and therefore to make it possible to do more in that respect.

Surely, by now, we have learnt that lesson. It is a cheap political argument to say that it is possible to create money out of thin air and that this Government want to protect the rich at the expense of the poor. If we want to help the poor, we have to get the economy growing again. The noble Baroness says that the economy is not growing because of this Government. The economy is not growing because of the burden of debt which she and her fellow members of the Labour Party ran up.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

The noble Lord keeps going on about debt. Is it not right that, because of the failures of the noble Lord’s Government, the lack of growth has meant that borrowing is now about £200 billion more than they planned when they came into being?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am utterly amazed by the noble Lord. He is now criticising us for spending £200 billion more than we planned, when part of that money is being used to provide the 1% uplift in benefits. Talk about wanting to have it both ways. On the one hand, he is criticising the Government for not borrowing enough, but now he is criticising the Government for borrowing more than we planned. The reason why we are having to borrow more than we planned is because of all the commitments made by the previous Government without a clue as to how they would fund them. That includes commitments on welfare. Welfare spending accounts for £1 in every £4 that the Government spend.

On the basis of the noble Lord’s criticism that we are spending £200 billion more, that would mean that £50 billion is going on welfare. In all the time that I have been involved in both Houses of Parliament, I have never seen a more irresponsible Opposition. It is not good enough for the right reverend Prelate to come to tell us that we need to do more to help working families with young children without explaining from where the money is to come or addressing the main problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Deben is not in the Chamber, although I had a word with him outside. I am not sure that he was fair in asking the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon where he would find the money on the previous amendment. However, when we get into the guts of this amendment, it would be reasonable to expect the Official Opposition at that stage to explain where they would find it.

My memory goes back to Grand Committee on a couple of Bills in the final two years of the previous Government. They were held in the Moses Room; one was on housing and the other was on planning. I recall that the second one occurred in the very first week of the then Governor of the Bank of England—who is still the governor—who expressed anxiety that a recession was now becoming a real possibility. I asked why the Government, in their explanation of the text of the respective Bills on housing and planning, thought that future conditions would be like conditions in the past. I was told by both the Minister and knowledgeable government Back-Benchers in Grand Committee that I was not to worry my head about these things. There was no acceptance that the economic ice was beginning to thin and, specifically, I was told that the recession had not yet happened.

It was only later that I recalled a new year message in the 1950s or 1960s in the Observer by its essayist Paul Jennings in his weekly article. He explained that the new year had come in over a weekend and he had therefore had the opportunity to use the weekend to explore in his diary what the publishers thought he needed to know in the coming year, which they had not supplied in the previous one. It transpired that the answer was the thickness of ice. He explained that he was now in a position to tell the Observer’s readers that you required half an inch of ice to sustain a duck and an inch of ice to sustain an infant, going up in a series of categories until you reached 16 inches for a County-class locomotive and 24 inches for a regiment of foot. It was on reaching the statistic for a regiment of foot that Mr Jennings began to wonder how they knew. He imagined a scene in the Crimea when not much else was happening. The same young Mr Hemmings who took part in the film “The Charge of the Light Brigade” was riding up to Lord Raglan with the news that they had just lost another battalion of the Grenadiers.

If I move from that analogy to the departure of the previous Government, I recall that Mr Byrne, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, left a note for his successor saying that there was no more money. As a message, that seems to me as daunting for a new Chief Secretary as the news to Lord Raglan that he had lost a battalion of the Grenadiers during what must have been the Crimean War. It is therefore reasonable to ask the Official Opposition where they would find the money for their support for this amendment. Indeed, perhaps the Official Opposition might express some regret for their mistakes in government and explain to the Bench of Bishops what went wrong in their economic policies.

In the same context as the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, I shall personally look forward in the hope that we will be able to come back to that subject on a future amendment, in which I would much enjoy joining with him.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we have added our names to this amendment moved so comprehensively by the noble Lord, Lord Low. It requires that all the components of ESA—the personal allowance and the additional component for those in the work-related activity group, as well as those in the support group—are taken outside the 1% cap on uprating. As we have heard, the amendment rightly includes provision for children to be made under universal credit, although it remains to be seen how much progress the faltering universal credit will have made by the time the Bill is spent.

As we have argued on previous amendments, it is the vulnerable who are most affected by the Bill. This is particularly so for those on ESA for two specific reasons. They are much less able to increase their income through work and their living costs are generally higher. This is particularly so for those in the support group, who are furthest from the labour market, but also for those in the WRAG. It is worth remembering that there is a rigorous testing process for people who are unable to work due to ill health or disability. We know that the gateway to this benefit is tough. Although the process involving Atos has been improved, there are still many who end up on ESA only after a successful appeal.

Although individuals in the WRAG are closer to the labour market through their conditionality or otherwise, the route to paid work is not easy, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, said. We know that the Work Programme has not covered itself in glory in this regard. As things currently stand, individuals in the WRAG will lose something like £191 a year by 2015 as a result of this Bill. Those in the support group will fare little better in terms of income, being some £138 a year worse off by that date.

Macmillan has specifically drawn our attention to how these measures will affect people with cancer. Its estimate is that in excess of 40,000 cancer patients will be claiming ESA by 2015 with the presumption that they will be placed in the support group. Macmillan particularly stresses the impact of rising energy bills on this group. Like the noble Lord, Lord Low, I remind the Secretary of State that he should fulfil his commitment to make sure that people on ESA are being fully protected.

The noble Lord, Lord Brooke, challenged me to say where we think the money should come from. I thought I made it clear in the first debate that we think the Government should not proceed with the tax cut that is proposed for those earning £150,000 a year. The proposed tax cut from 50% to 45% would be a source of revenue. The Government say that this will not produce very much, but that assumes that people can get away with planning their income to defeat the thrust of that change. If the Government are alert to that, they could garner that revenue and we believe they should.

There is a wider argument about the extent of debt that can be sustained. The point I come back to is that the greater the failure of the Government in their economic policy—the greater the paucity or lack of growth in the economy—the more it will be necessary for the Government to borrow. If the Government can get growth back into the economy, that begins to ease the debt burden. There is another source there.

I also remind the noble Lord that these amendments take ESA out of the fixed uprating—the collar that this Bill puts around them—so a judgment would have to be made for each uprating period. Traditionally and rightly that has been an increase by the rate of inflation of one sort of another. That is what these amendments are doing. They are not technically, of themselves, proposing a different rate, although I made it clear that we support uprating by inflation for the year that we are about to enter.

It is clear from that combination of reasons that this proposal can and should be supported. It is not constrained by the economic position of the Government. It is the Government that have got themselves into a bind because they have failed to generate growth in the economy.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

As the noble Lord understands some of the complexities of this matter which many others may find more difficult, what does he assess the cost of this amendment would be over the next few years?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

The total cost is certainly less than that proposed for the totality of the arrangements in the Bill. It would be a portion of that. The number of people in the support group is something like 200,000 and there are around 300,000 in the WRAG. If you assumed you were looking at a difference between uprating by inflation and uprating by 1%, that would be the calculation. I stress that this amendment is saying that you simply take ESA out of the 1% collar, and it leaves open the question of whether uprating next year and the year after should be by whatever inflation is then. However, this amendment does not put a figure on it.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

The noble Lord is a signatory to this amendment. He is speaking for the Official Opposition and it obviously represents a cost. I wonder what that cost is. I do not see how the House can vote if it is not clear what extra costs are envisaged. If he is suggesting that there is no extra cost at all, I do not imagine the Government will find great difficulty with the amendment. Presumably there is a cost; I wonder if he knows the figure.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

It depends on what the alternative proposition would be. I have tried to stress that this amendment takes ESA outside this 1% fixed uprating—outside that collar—so we would have to judge the impact at each uprating period thereafter. A judgment would have to be made in the light of inflation and general economic circumstances at that point in time. That seems a very clear proposition, is it not? It is certainly a basis on which we are very happy to support this amendment.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, all of us want to protect those who are furthest from the labour market or who have additional costs because of disability, and I think that all of us who have contributed to this debate so far and all of us in the Chamber today share that view. There is no disagreement among us on that.

That is what the Government are doing. We have not included key disability benefits, including disability living allowance and attendance allowance in the 1% annual uprating decision in the Bill. Nor have we included the disability premiums in working age benefits or the disability elements of tax credits in the Bill. We have also excluded the support group component of employment and support allowance and the higher of the universal credit disabled child additions. All these benefits will continue to be uprated by CPI. We have protected them because they help support those who are furthest from the labour market or who have additional costs because of disability.

In one of the exchanges that has just taken place, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to cancer sufferers and made the point that we want to make sure that we provide them with the support that they need. It is worth reminding noble Lords that earlier this year, in January in fact, we introduced changes that will mean that more people with cancer will now qualify for the support group, which is protected, whereas before they might have been placed in the work-related activity group. We have taken on board the concerns in that area. They were valid concerns, and we were glad to be able to act on them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, let me make it clear that we support each of these amendments. The request in the amendment in the name of the noble Baronesses, Lady Morgan of Drefelin and Lady Masham of Ilton, that there should be a review seems modest and straightforward. If the Government should seek to resist that, or a reasonable and clear alternative, I would be amazed.

The case is the same with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood. As I understand the proposition, he is saying that should in any year the current expectations of inflation be in excess of 3%, which we currently expect to be the case, the 1% automatic uprating would not apply and there has to be an annual assessment, as happens at the moment. That assessment might lead to a 1% uprating, or to some other form of uprating, but there would not be the automatic application of 1%. Who knows what will happen to inflation? I do not predict that there will be a surge in inflation but, if there were to be, is any level of real cut in the standard of living of poor people acceptable to the Government? Is that what they are saying? They would be if they rejected this amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Would the noble Lord apply the same principle to pay in the public sector?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

We are talking about specific provisions in the Bill about the uprating of benefits. The noble Lord has worked quite hard to differentiate himself from the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and his amendments. The suggestion that somehow having this provision in the Bill will fuel wage inflation across the land, fuel expectations up and down the country and bring the economy to a halt is, frankly, frivolous and a nonsense. The noble Lord knows that full well. He is an experienced parliamentarian and an able debater, but I do not believe that he did himself justice in the way he sought to pick away at the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I was asking the noble Lord a straightforward question. He is enunciating the principle that if inflation were at 3% or more, it would be necessary to abandon a position that held the increase in benefits to 1%. I am simply saying that if that is the Opposition’s view, is it also their view in respect of public sector pay? If inflation turned out to be much higher, would the same apply to people working in the public sector? If not, why not?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we are debating a different Bill. If the noble Lord wants to debate a proposition about public sector pay, let us have some propositions and we can consider that. The noble Lord knows full well that he is trying to lead the Opposition in a particular direction.

I come back to the point that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, is very straightforward. It just says that an automatic 1% uprating would not apply automatically if inflation reached a certain level. That seems entirely unobjectionable and I cannot see why the Government cannot accept it. If the Government do not accept it, they have to say what level of inflation, what level of real decrease in people’s circumstances, they would find acceptable, because that would be the consequence of rejecting the amendment. This is a very modest proposition. I really am surprised at the trouble that the Government are having with accepting it. I would hope at least that the noble Lord’s colleagues would stick with him on this issue as the arguments that we have heard against it are quite spurious.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the first amendment in this group in the name of my noble friend Lord Kirkwood would mean that the Bill would apply only if inflation was below 3% for the purposes of uprating in that year.

I shall provide a reminder of what the official inflation forecasts currently show. While inflation is forecast to be above target—that is, 2% in the near term—it will fall back towards the target in the medium term. In the final year of the Bill, the current forecasts show that inflation for the purposes of uprating in that year will be 2.2%. That was the view of the Office for Budget Responsibility at the time of the Autumn Statement. The OBR produces independent and authoritative forecasts for the economy and public finances and we take decisions based on them.

However, the OBR is not alone in forecasting that inflation will fall back to target in the medium term. That is also the view of other major economic forecasters. I refer to the IMF, the OECD and the Bank of England. Indeed, the latest assessment of independent forecasters in February was that UK inflation would be 2.2% in the 12 months to quarter 1 of 2014 and in the 12 months to quarter 1 of 2015. That is an average assessment of people who make their living by doing this job.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, said that he thought there was a 50% chance of inflation being over 3% in the period covered by the Bill. I remind the House that that means a 50% chance that inflation will be over 3% by September 2014, because that is the last point at which the Bill has an effect in terms of benefit uprating. All I can say to my noble friend, for whom I have the greatest regard, is that his view is just not shared by any reputable international or national body that is making forecasts about inflation.

[Lord Newby]

I am coming on to that. In fact, I will deal with it now. It is relevant to the point that was made by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. The purpose of the Bill, as we have debated about 20 times since Second Reading, is to give some certainty to the Government’s fiscal plans. The reason we are doing that is that a number of international bodies and rating agencies have said that this has a specific and significant impact on the way that they view the UK’s prospects. Entrenching something in a Bill has the effect of giving a degree of certainty, which is immensely useful with regard to the markets.

As my noble friend Lord Forsyth has said, there seems to be a sense that the markets think that we in the UK are in a very good position and that a little tweak here and there in terms of borrowing will make no difference. That is not the way the markets work. It starts off with a little tweak and then the markets feel that something is going wrong. Once that feeling takes hold, the markets can move very quickly.

As we have debated many times in your Lordships’ House, it does not need much of an increase in inflation to make a huge difference to the Government’s finances and the lives of ordinary people.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

Can the noble Lord tell me how the markets have moved in response to the Government borrowing £200 billion more than originally planned?

[Lord Newby]

The reason why they have not moved is that the Government have not changed our underlying policy.

The effect of a 1% increase in inflation on someone with a £100,000 mortgage is £1,000. These are big differences and a 1% increase in the interest rate is by no means out of line with the interest rates being paid by a raft of European countries whose borrowing as a percentage of GDP is significantly less than ours. The risk in terms of interest rates is real and present. It is not some airy-fairy possibility that would come into play only if the Government were suddenly to go mad and spend huge amounts of money. It can happen with a relatively small change.

The Government remain committed to low and stable inflation. As we have said umpteen times, it is good for individuals and for business and is a prerequisite for economic prosperity. That is why the Government set the remit for the independent Monetary Policy Committee to target inflation. The Chancellor will set the remit at Budget tomorrow, as usual. I do not know what the remit will be but I know it will not be, to quote my noble friend Lord Kirkwood, to loosen the constraints so that inflation rips. I am confident that the Government’s commitment to low inflation will remain.

My noble friend Lord Kirkwood and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, “What happens if, contrary to what the Government have said, inflation does rip? Suppose we have a circumstance that we don’t believe is going to happen”. If Governments legislated for every circumstance that they did not believe was going to happen, we would have Bills thousands of pages long. The Government can legislate and act only on the basis of a central assumption of what the future, in respect of the particular area of public policy they are dealing with, is going to be like, and that is what we have done here.

I turn to the issue that many people have faced and in many cases continue to face—real-terms reductions in pay. Inflation risk is something that everyone has to face in everyday life. We have been taking about public servants but let us just talk about them a bit more. Public servants have seen their pay frozen and then increased by 1%. When inflation rose to 5.2% in September 2011, many public servants were in the middle of a pay freeze. The Opposition supported that policy and there was no inflation guarantee within it. This includes, for example, many hard-pressed personal advisers in jobcentres who are on modest incomes and are having to see restraint in their pay in these very tough times. That is the right policy. However, the consequences have been that many out-of-work benefit recipients have seen higher cash—yes, cash—increases in their benefits payments over the past three years than many Jobcentre Plus personal advisers have seen in their salaries.

These are difficult but necessary decisions. We must remember the tough circumstances that many people in work have faced and continue to face across the country as we deal with the effects of the economic crisis. As I have said, we believe that this Bill is necessary to set out a clear and credible plan to make savings from welfare, help reduce the deficit and restore economic recovery. We are taking the tough decisions because it is necessary to give confidence to the markets. Adding to the Bill conditions such as those proposed by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood would diminish the confidence that we require.

I now turn to Amendment 12, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Drefelin. This amendment would place a duty on the Secretary of State to instruct the Social Security Advisory Committee to commence a review of the level of uprating if inflation reaches 3.2% in any of the relevant periods as defined in the amendment. I hope that during this and previous debates both I and my noble friend Lady Stowell have been able to convey to the House that we understand and share noble Lords’ concerns about measuring the impacts of the Bill and all our reforms on individuals. However, as the noble Baroness slightly suggested in her speech, we believe that the amendment is unnecessary.

Noble Lords will be aware that we already have comprehensive arrangements in place to report on the impacts of government policy. First, we have already published a full account of the impacts of this Bill based on the forecast set out by the OBR. Again, these forecasts are broadly shared by the other main economic forecasters. Noble Lords will be aware that we have also published the child poverty impacts of the Bill. The Government already have a suite of ongoing reporting mechanisms in place and report on the levels of poverty every year in the households below average income series. It is only by looking at poverty issues in the round that we can have a meaningful debate about poverty. Noble Lords will be aware that the Government are currently analysing responses to their consultation on new measures of child poverty, measures that will attempt to capture the wider reality of poverty in the UK today.

Later this year we shall see the first of what will become an annual report from the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission, which will report on the Government’s progress towards reducing child poverty, in particular meeting the targets in the Act and implementing the most recent UK strategy. This commission, chaired by Alan Milburn, will report to Parliament and will enable detailed scrutiny of the Government’s work to eradicate child poverty.

Finally, the Government regularly produce an analysis of the cumulative impact of changes on households across the income distribution. This information is published by the Treasury at every Budget and other major fiscal events. This analysis will use updated inflation projections. We believe that it is a better approach than that in the amendment as it looks at the cumulative impacts of all changes rather than artificially isolating just one policy. The publication of cumulative impacts is a coalition initiative and was not produced by the previous Administration.

The Government have taken unprecedented steps to increase transparency and enable effective scrutiny of policy-making by publishing detailed distributional analysis of the impacts of their reforms on households. Our published distributional analysis goes further than that of any previous Government. Having these mechanisms in place means that we are confident that the Government will be able to scrutinise the effects of this Bill and of our whole suite of welfare reforms. I therefore ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.