Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill

Debate between Lord McColl of Dulwich and Lord Carlile of Berriew

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 1st February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord McColl of Dulwich]

What is the limit? My apologies.

I return to my basic question and ask whether the Minister can confirm—[Interruption.] I am speaking to two amendments; 15 minutes each makes 30 minutes. Can the Minister confirm that the Government intend to define widely the word “information” in proposed new subsection (6B), introduced by Clause 1(4), so that if someone said, “I am convinced that my husband was unaware of the deemed consent law and would have opted out had he known, so you should not take the organs”, this would be regarded as meeting the definition of “information” in the Bill? If the answer is yes, I will happily withdraw the amendment and I will not die in a ditch for my second amendment, but it is entirely reasonable to suggest that the people of England deserve the same statutory assurances on advertising as the people of Wales. I beg to move.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord McColl. He has great distinction as a surgeon; I recognise, as I am sure other noble Lords do, both that distinction and the great care he took, perhaps with a little liberality with the rules of the House, in presenting his arguments.

I will be brief. I think that I am one of six former Welsh Members of another place in the House today. At least some of us, perhaps most of those present, were reasonably or very enthusiastic supporters of devolution to Wales. One reason why the law on organ donation has changed in Wales is because devolution has allowed for a much shallower pyramid in the Welsh legislative process. In December 2015, the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly changed the system to one of presumed consent. It has worked very well. For me, as a Welsh-born former MP for Wales, it is a matter of great pride to be able to say to your Lordships’ House, on this occasion at least, “Look up to what has happened in Wales”. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, as a former Welsh Minister, carries some credit for what occurred there.

I offer a few short propositions. First, there is no evidence of sound ethical principles being undermined as a result of the new Welsh legislation. Believe it or not, medical ethics in Wales are at least as good as in England, and patient satisfaction levels are at least as high, if not higher. Secondly, there is clear evidence of a better understanding of organ donation issues among families in Wales. The figures speak for themselves: on 16 November 2018, the Welsh Government announced that the rate of family consent in Wales is now at its highest ever—80.5%. That compares with 66.2% in England, 63.6% in Scotland and 66.7% in Northern Ireland. I suggest that these figures show that understanding of the new organ donation arrangements in Wales among Welsh families and the Welsh public is very high. There is no evidence of any irresponsibility, either legislatively or in the health service, in ensuring that organs are available in Wales.

Finally, I have no particular objection to the ambition of the noble Lord, Lord McColl, that public information levels about the new process of deemed consent for organ donation should be the highest possible. That has happened in Wales, which is why families there understand these issues so much better, as borne out by the figures I just gave. Indeed, can the Minister—who is a she, not a he, by the way—confirm the Government’s ambition for public information levels to be at least as high in England and wherever else the Act will apply, which is a matter for later discussion, as in Wales? The Government would be crazy not to undertake a publicity campaign to explain properly something quite fundamental that needs to be explained to the public. Can she also confirm that patients in other parts of the United Kingdom to which this excellent Bill applies will not be at any disadvantage?