Police and Fire Reform (Scotland) Act 2012 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2013

Lord McAvoy Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Mar and Kellie]

My Lords, I am perfectly happy with what the Scottish Parliament has legislated for and I am happy with the order. I should like to record my surprise at the strategy of going for a national police force in Scotland. It certainly has been the tradition in Scotland and across the whole of Britain as an island that policing should be organised locally. At home, I have maps which point out where the Alloa borough police force was: it had a chief constable, a sergeant and 10 constables. The tradition in Britain has been one of local policing.

I also acknowledge that in another part of English-speaking Europe, in Ireland, that it always has had national policing. After 1922, the Royal Irish Constabulary was replaced by two national forces—the RUC and the Garda Siochana. I want to record the fact that I am surprised by the strategy which apparently we want to have in Scotland, while I am very happy about us having a strategy in Scotland.

[Lord McAvoy]

My Lords, the Opposition support the measure, which as yet is another example of continuing devolution. I will not pay tribute to the Minister’s staff today because the last time I praised one of them, she mysteriously vanished and we have never seen her again. I do not know quite what he has done to her but I hope that she survives and makes a further appearance. The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, has mentioned the Scottish tradition of policing but we all have to recognise devolution and its implications. There was a consultation process that was very supportive and there did not seem to be any dissenting voices to the proposal. As the Minister rightly says, this is necessary after the 2012 Act. I cannot quite remember the context in which he mentioned torture, but I do not think that that has relevance on this.

There are comparisons with other nations and regions of the United Kingdom—we all understand the Northern Ireland one—but the Scottish Government have considerable powers and I can understand why there are reservations about having a national police force against a background of the police always being regionally organised. I was on the police and fire committee of Strathclyde regional council, which has a very good operation. The Minister mentioned that there were 14 abstentions in the Scottish Parliament—I presume that that was his own party, or did the Liberal Democrats vote against? I welcome the conversion and hope that we can have further co-operation like that.

Although the report is rightly subject to scrutiny and questioning, I want to develop a wee bit further the principle of disaffection. As a trade unionist, the word “disaffection” towards anything raises questions. It has been mentioned that some of the clarification that the Minister’s staff was able to pass on was on questions asked by the committee regarding who could be charged with disaffection. The initial reply seemed to indicate that only certain police could be charged with disaffection, but further clarification suggested that it could apply to a member of the public as well. Although I totally accept the Minister’s point that the Government do not envisage anyone being charged with this wrongly, unfairly, or whatever, he will know better than I do that legal history is full of people who have been prosecuted for offences for which at the time it was indicated they would not be prosecuted. So, I would like further clarification on disaffection because the police are different. It is acknowledged that they are not allowed to join trade unions. We have to have law and order and a legal system, so it is right that in case anybody tries to suborn or undermine the police in carrying out their duties, the defence should stay in.

I press the Minister to go a bit further in giving us assurances that no “innocent bystanders” who have had a pint too much on a Saturday night and preach treason—I have certainly done that myself a few times with pints of soda water and lime, I hasten to add—will be prosecuted. I seek assurances that ordinary members of the public, letting off steam—to use one of the expressions mentioned—will not be liberally prosecuted. I will leave it at that and hope that the Minister can give us some of those answers. That will reassure me.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank both my noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for their contributions to the debate. I note the concerns of my noble friend with regard to the establishment of a national police force. He will be aware, as I indicated in opening, that our Scottish Liberal Democrat colleagues in the Scottish Parliament voted against this. At one point the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, suggested that the 14 were Liberal Democrats—if only we had 14 Members in the Scottish Parliament. It was five Liberal Democrats and one Green who voted against and 14 Conservatives who abstained. The point is not about whether we support this policy intent, but that the Act was properly passed by the Scottish Parliament, and by a large majority. It is very consistent and in the spirit of the devolution settlement that this Parliament, through the use of a Section 104 order, should give effect to the intentions of the Scottish Parliament in areas where, because of its competence, it was not able to do so. It is in that spirit of making the devolution settlement work that we bring forward this order.