Scotland: Constitutional Settlement
Lord McAvoy Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I entirely agree with my noble friend on that need. The best way forward is to have an enduring union, to which I am certainly committed. The proposals in the White Paper which the Government produced at the end of January give effect to the agreement reached under the commission chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin. Not to have acknowledged and fulfilled the commitment given to the electorate would have been more damaging to the union. I have taken part in numerous debates in your Lordships’ House where noble Lords from all sides have called for a constitutional convention. That may well be the way forward after the election.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, on behalf of the Labour Party, I welcome the noble and learned Lord’s further commitment to the Smith commission’s proposals for devolution. If elected in May, the Labour Government will be committed to including the home rule Bill in their first Queen’s Speech and introducing it in their first 100 days. The Smith commission also expressed a strong desire for further devolution within Scotland. Do the Government have any proposals for ideas at this stage to ensure that devolution does not stop at the Scottish Parliament but goes further through Scottish public life?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord’s commitment on behalf of his party. It is important to say that all three United Kingdom parties have undertaken to make that commitment in their respective manifestoes. I also share the noble Lord’s view that devolution should not stop at Edinburgh, not least because in the constituency which I used to represent, there is a very strong view that there should be devolution within Scotland. Most of the powers to do that rest with the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government, but in public debate we should be making that point very clearly because we have had considerable centralisation under the present SNP Administration.
Courts Reform (Scotland) Act 2014 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2015
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The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)
My Lords, the main purpose of the order is to give full effect to the Courts Reform (Scotland) Act 2014, which I shall refer to as the 2014 Act, and to make provision where the Scottish Parliament does not have the legislative competence to do so.
The order is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998 and makes necessary or expedient legislative changes in consequence of the 2014 Act. It is quite technical in nature. It maintains the status quo and ensures that courts in Scotland retain their specific powers in relation to devolved and reserved matters.
To provide noble Lords with some background, the 2014 Act implements the majority of the recommendations of the Scottish civil courts review of 2009, which was an independent review chaired by Lord Gill. As the Committee may know, Lord Gill was at the time of the review the Lord Justice Clerk of Scotland and is now the current Lord President of the Court of Session.
The 2014 Act is intended to make the civil justice system in Scotland more efficient, with most of that Act focusing on a restructure of the civil courts system in Scotland. The 2014 Act makes some additional provisions relating to criminal matters.
From 1 April this year, the functions of the Scottish Tribunals Service will be transferred to the Scottish Court Service as a result of provision within the 2014 Act, and that Act will rename the Scottish Court Service the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service. It is intended that this transfer will protect the independence of the administration of devolved tribunals by separating it from the Scottish Government. It will also create a joint independent administration for both courts and tribunals, with one board chaired by the Lord President as head of the judiciary for both courts and tribunals.
The Pensions Appeal Tribunal for Scotland, or PATS, was established under the Schedule to the Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943. While pensions are a reserved matter, PATS is currently administered by the Scottish Tribunals Service, since the non-statutory function of providing administrative support was executively devolved to the Scottish Ministers by the Scotland Act 1998 (Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 1999. The order before us transfers the administration of PATS from Scottish Ministers to the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service.
Section 2 of the 2014 Act updates existing powers to alter sheriffdoms and sheriff court districts in Sections 2(1) and 3(2) of the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971. The order consolidates and re-enacts the compensation provisions in those sections and permits the Scottish Courts and Tribunals Service to pay compensation for loss of office or loss or diminution of emoluments in consequence of an order made under Section 2 of the 2014 Act.
Currently, the Court of Session may make rules to regulate procedure and fees in both the Court of Session and the sheriff court, and it is important that the Court of Session still has this ability both for reserved matters and those which are devolved. The principal powers under which these rules are made are contained within the Court of Session Act 1988 and the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1971. As powers which were conferred on the court by pre-devolution statutes, these rule-making powers cover both reserved and devolved matters. This means that the court has been able to make special rules governing practice and procedure in relation to reserved areas of the law such as immigration, financial services and terrorism.
The court’s rule-making powers are now to be contained in the 2014 Act, but, because of the current legislative competence arrangements, that Act can provide the rule-making power only for matters which are devolved. Accordingly, the order provides that these powers may be used to make provision which relates to a reserved matter, or which modifies the law on reserved matters; that is, provision modifying existing special rules relating to reserved matters. This preserves the pre-existing ability of the court to regulate practice and procedure regardless of whether the subject matter of the proceedings in question is devolved or reserved.
While the 2014 Act provides for the Lord President of the Court of Session to direct certain categories of sheriff court case as suitable to be dealt with by specialist judiciary, and for the Lord President or the sheriff principal of a sheriffdom to be able to designate particular members of the sheriff court judiciary as specialists in one or more areas, the order provides for these powers to be exercisable in relation to categories of case which relate to reserved matters.
Similarly, while the 2014 Act inserts new sections into the Court of Session Act 1988 to include the application of a second appeals test applying to applications for review of decisions of the Upper Tribunal for Scotland, the order extends these provisions to apply to the UK Upper Tribunal.
The 2014 Act provides that civil proceedings which a sheriff has competence to deal with, and in which orders of value are sought of an aggregate value which does not exceed £100,000, may be brought only in the sheriff court. However, this order prevents the 2014 Act applying to proceedings for the winding-up of a company, with the consequence that such proceedings will remain competent in the Court of Session regardless of any order for value sought.
Finally, the order makes consequential modifications to existing UK legislation. For example, the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 and the Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 are each amended to reflect the abolition of the office of stipendiary magistrate and the introduction of new judicial offices of summary sheriff and part-time summary sheriff in the 2014 Act.
A further example of the consequential modifications made by the order is that, as the 2014 Act has repealed several pieces of legislation in so far as Scots law is concerned, it replicates these repeals for the rest of the UK, thus tidying up the UK statute book. A specific example of this is the repeal of the Judicial Offices (Salaries, etc.) Act 1952 by the 2014 Act. This order replicates those repeals for the rest of the UK.
I consider this order to be a sensible use of the powers under the Scotland Act 1998 and it once again demonstrates this Government’s continued commitment to working with the Scottish Government to ensure that the devolution settlement works. I therefore commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
Again, I place on the record my thanks to the noble and learned Lord and his staff for keeping me fully informed. It is with trepidation that I set foot in a Room when an order mentioning emoluments and compensation for legal people is being discussed. I am not that brave and prepared to tread that ground too much.
The noble and learned Lord says that is sensible devolution. It is a steady process that is working well and, on behalf of the Opposition, I fully endorse the order.
Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2015
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The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)
My Lords, this draft order will devolve competence to the Scottish Parliament so that it can enact legislation about certain safety measures in relation to all dedicated school transport in Scotland. I will give the Committee a brief explanation of how the draft order achieves this and why it is felt to be an appropriate and sensible use of the powers under the Scotland Act 1998.
The draft order is made under Section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998. Section 30(2) provides a mechanism whereby Schedule 4 or Schedule 5 to that Act can be modified by an Order in Council, subject to the agreement of both the UK and Scottish Parliaments. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, will recall that we debated a similar order on the Floor of the House last week.
The draft order will amend Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 to make an exception to the road transport reservation in Section E1 of Schedule 5 to that Act. The amendment will devolve power to the Scottish Parliament to legislate in relation to the regulation of the description of motor vehicles, by reference to their construction and equipment, which are used to transport pupils and students in Scotland to and from places where they receive education or training, such as schools and colleges.
There is an ongoing petition before the Scottish Parliament’s Public Petitions Committee that calls for provision to be made to ensure that every school bus in Scotland is installed with three-point seatbelts for every school child passenger and to ensure that proper regard is given to the safety needs of the children. Although it is the Scottish Government’s current position that the specific terms of dedicated school bus contracts are matters for individual local authorities, in an approach consistent with the petition I have just mentioned, Scottish Ministers have indicated that they intend to introduce legislation with the aim of ensuring that it becomes a requirement for seatbelts to be installed on all dedicated school transport in Scotland. This order will confer legislative competence on the Scottish Parliament to allow them to do so.
Once again, the order demonstrates the Government’s continued commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I hope the Committee will agree that this order is a reasonable use of the powers in the Scotland Act 1998. The draft order has passed Committee stage in the Scottish Parliament and we expect that Parliament to conclude its scrutiny by 19 March 2015. The other place is expected to consider this draft order in two weeks’ time. I commend the order to the Committee and I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister and his staff for making sure that I was kept informed. He mentioned last week’s debate on the Floor of the House. Perhaps in future he should consider a joint invitation to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, to come along and liven up the proceedings. That would probably put the Minister in the position that he would expect—and get—the Labour Party to ride to his rescue, as we did last week.
The Minister is absolutely right: this is continuing support for the devolution settlement, which I am glad the current Government are continuing. He has outlined it. There is no need to go over it again. We support the order.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, as ever, I am grateful for the noble Lord’s support.
Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedules 4 and 5 and Transfer of Functions to the Scottish Ministers etc.) Order 2015
Lord McAvoy Excerpts(9 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Lexden
My Lords, I have listened with tremendous interest to this debate and with the utmost appreciation for the wonderful exposition of the unionist case from my noble friend Lord Forsyth. One point above all has been borne in upon me: the absolute need for a consistent voting age throughout our country. It is a question of deep principle. Surely that is what we need to settle. Against that background, would it not be appropriate for the Government to withdraw this order, to secure—although, of course, it cannot come immediately—a proper parliamentary decision on the voting age? That should surely come first. That point will stay with me above all from this tremendously enjoyable and important debate.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, let me come to the aid of the Government. I have really enjoyed the debate and want it to go on longer, but I think we might be getting to the time when we are pushing our luck. I will be relying very heavily on the speech made by Margaret Curran in the other place: a brilliant exposition of the Labour Party position on this issue and on this methodology. I understand the concerns raised about the methodology and I will deal with that later in what I have got to say.
As Margaret Curran said, it is worth remembering that the referendum was decisive in what it decided: to stay within the union. It was also decisive in looking for change. Here I must say that it is easy for people to demonise and insult Gordon Brown, but he is a giant of the international stage, a giant of the Westminster stage and a giant of the Scottish stage, and people who nark away are pygmies in comparison. He came forward almost single-handedly at a time when the future of our country as a member of the United Kingdom was in doubt. It is easy to deride some of his actions, but I am one of those who take the view that, had it not been for the highly significant intervention of Gordon Brown, the outcome of the referendum may not have been so decisive. The call for change is certainly there. That referendum resulted in a degree of consensus on new powers for Scotland, coalescing around the Smith commission.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am most grateful to the noble Lord. He seems to be making the case that there was no last-minute panic with the so-called vow in Scotland. I do not know how he can possibly make that case, because many of the 16 year-olds—and others, like me—had already voted by post when the so-called vow was published. The vow was not even called a vow by the privy counsellors concerned. This was an antic by the editor of the Daily Record, who put the declaration on the front page and called it a vow, and it was done in the last 48 hours of the campaign. If that is not panic, I do not know what the definition of “panic” is.
Lord McAvoy
The noble Lord referred to the Daily Record. In a previous life he was not so keen on quoting the Daily Record when it called for his resignation over various matters.
This is about not only the vow but the conduct of Gordon Brown in leading the Better Together campaign in public meetings. He was accompanied by Ruth Davidson—she performed brilliantly as well and sat on the same platform as him—and the message got through to the Scottish public. The thoughts of Gordon Brown—not the thoughts of Chairman Mao—and his attitude to Scottish independence and a more powerful Scottish Parliament will go down in history. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, may not like it but certainly he will be viewed as the architect of that.
Lord Reid of Cardowan
I do not wish to contradict anything my noble friend has said but perhaps we should clarify the difference. My noble friend said that there was no panic in Scotland. I think what the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, referred to was panic in London. Both may be right.
I intervene to mention Alistair Darling and many other people who spent a great deal of time over a long period when things were difficult. We should put on record our appreciation for the man who led the campaign.
Lord McAvoy
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Reid of Cardowan. I was coming to the Better Together campaign, but Gordon Brown was specifically mentioned and that is why I led with offering my thanks and congratulations to him.
Lord Lexden
Given that there has been considerable comment about Gordon Brown, does the noble Lord endorse his latest requests for movement beyond the Smith commission? Does he endorse Mr Brown’s latest utterances?
Lord McAvoy
I have not studied them in detail so I am not quite sure. However, we are dealing with this measure today.
On my noble friend Lord Reid’s point, Alistair Darling led the campaign, Jim Murphy went round the country with his Irn-Bru crates and a large number of other people were also involved. One of the hidden powers behind the transformation of the Better Together campaign was my honourable friend Frank Roy, MP for Motherwell and Wishaw, whose training in the Whips’ Office came through in spades and he certainly helped to deliver. I hope that completes the panoply of people I have to thank for the result.
I have mentioned Ruth Davidson—she was fine—and I am trying to think of a Liberal I can mention, but I will move on.
Lord McAvoy
Charles Kennedy, yes; what a time it was for Charles—a former member of the SDP, but there we are.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
On the subject of Gordon Brown, does the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, agree with his repudiation of the Smith commission’s proposals that the Scottish Parliament should have power to levy income tax?
Lord McAvoy
This is not about what Gordon Brown says now. I cannot deal with a matter that Gordon Brown has no influence on other than within the referendum campaign. What was said in the Smith commission is agreed. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will send me these alleged quotes from Gordon Brown and let us move on. I remind the House that it was the disparaging remarks about Gordon Brown from the Benches opposite that inspired my defence of him. I will always come to his defence.
My noble friend Lord Reid is right: there may have been panic in London—I am not party to the higher echelons of power in London—but in the political parties in Scotland there was no panic. There were the strident calls of the SNP and its negative reaction to the referendum result, but that was it.
It is quite clear that the changes proposed in this order are welcome in Scotland. I am Scottish and involved in Scotland and I know that the order is welcome, and it is right that the Secretary of State has brought it forward. As I have said, the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, has done the House a service by raising these issues and allowing the Minister to respond to them. I make it absolutely clear—even if it invites further interventions—that we are fully behind this order. It reflects the Smith commission recommendations and the requests in Scotland that we should do this, and it is right that the Scottish Parliament should have the power to do so. It is also right and logical that the Scottish Parliament should be given the power to alter the franchise for local government elections.
I hope that we can move forward with consensus and use the consensus that exists in Scotland. Everyone knows that relations between the Labour Party and the Liberals have not always been consensual; the Conservative Party has certainly never been too consensual —especially when the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was Scottish Secretary, but I will not dwell on his guilty past—but the consensus is there. Without any doubt we fully support the order and wish to place that on record.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this robust and good natured debate. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, may have got a lot of things out of his system about the vow and so on, but I suspect that, when we come back after the election, at the Second Reading of the Scotland Bill which will bring forward the clauses, we will have a reprise of his speech and there will be even more things for him to get his teeth into.
The debate has ranged widely, from Wolf Hall, to the Stone of Destiny, to the roll of honour of those who took part in supporting the no campaign during the referendum. A number of important points have been made—for example, the one put succinctly by the noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, in his intervention on my noble friend Lord Stephen. There are inconsistencies in the things you can do at 15, 16, 17 and 18. You can get married and join the Armed Forces at 16, but the ages for driving and buying cigarettes are different. The order is not about ironing out these inconsistencies. An overview of the differences is for another time and another place; it is not what this order is about.
There was a degree of consensus around your Lordships’ House on the merits of a constitutional convention or convocation, which included the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Maxton, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who pointed out that my own party supported it. It is not going to happen this side of the general election—it cannot practically be set up in the next three or four weeks—but, post-election, it is almost inevitable in some form. It will involve not only the political parties but civic communities, which is important, but that is for the other side of the election. It has happened before. In the debate we had in October after the referendum, views from different parts of the United Kingdom and from different parties were expressed about the importance of a constitutional convention.
One of the other themes was the thin end of the wedge, as it may be called. If voting at 16 happens in Scotland at the Scottish Parliament and Scottish local government elections, it may well happen elsewhere. My noble friend Lord Tyler made clear why he hopes that will be the case. With due respect to noble Lords who do not wish to see votes at 16, I could take technical shelter behind the fact that the order does not legislate for votes at 16 in Scotland for the Scottish Parliament; rather it confers the powers for the Scottish Parliament to do so. However, given that the Scottish Parliament has made it clear that it will do so I shall not hide behind the order, but it is important to remember technically what it does.
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My noble friend Lord Stephen made the point that we have debated important issues, including the vow. It is quite clear that my noble friend Lord Forsyth does not like how we got here. I voted no, in spite of the vow, not because of it. I voted no because I wanted Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom and I am delighted that we got the very convincing outcome to the referendum that we did. At the time, it was said that a vote for no was not a vote for no change. The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, reflected that when he referred to the speech made by Mrs Margaret Curran in the other place. I will come on to the process in a moment.
Scotland: Draft Legislation
Lord McAvoy Excerpts(9 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for advance sight of his Statement. Today we again mark another milestone in the delivery of the vow made to the people of Scotland before the independence referendum. The timetable set out by my right honourable friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath during the referendum campaign has now been exceeded at every stage. A Command Paper on the process towards further powers appeared just 25 days after the referendum. The conclusion of the Smith commission and agreement by all five of Scotland’s political parties happened before St Andrew’s Day, just 10 weeks after the referendum. And today, ahead of schedule, as the Minister said, we see the draft clauses which will form the basis of the next Scotland Bill.
Before I turn to our response to the draft clauses and the Command Paper laid before the House today, I want to provide an absolute guarantee from these Benches. As my right honourable friend the leader of the Opposition has now made clear on a number of occasions, the powers agreed by the Smith commission will be delivered, and the next Labour Government will include a new Scotland Bill in our first Queen’s Speech. Labour created the Scottish Parliament in 1999, we supported more powers for the Parliament in 2012, and we will create a powerhouse Parliament with these new powers when we are in government.
Labour made it clear at the outset of the Smith commission process that we wanted a settlement that: first, respected the decisive outcome of the referendum, with a strong Scotland inside a UK where we pooled and shared risk; secondly, moved the maximum possible power from Westminster to the Scottish Parliament; and finally, did not make Scotland worse off. We are satisfied that the Smith commission delivered this outcome, and we can say with confidence that with these clauses we will be delivering home rule—the full powers Scotland needs.
As the Command Paper notes, the powers that these clauses will confer on the Scottish Parliament mean that it will control around 60% of spending in Scotland and retain around 40% of Scottish tax. This will make it the third most powerful devolved assembly in the OECD.
Before I turn to the detail of the clauses I wish to press the Minister—in a friendly way—on two areas that I hope he can address in his reply. The Command Paper makes explicit reference to the Barnett formula, and the agreement of all five parties during the Smith commission to the continuation of the formula. Can he provide just a bit more clarity about how the adjustment to the block grant will take place, and how discussions with the Scottish Government to agree this are progressing?
I also wish to press the Minister on an item on page 40 of the Command Paper, which reproduces the commitment in Smith that:
“MPs representing constituencies across the whole of the UK will continue to decide the UK’s Budget, including Income Tax”.
Given the Chancellor’s comments at the Treasury Select Committee on Tuesday, can the Minister provide an absolute reassurance that this part of the Smith agreement will be respected, as it is not addressed in the Command Paper?
I now wish to turn to the detail and the precise powers that the clauses will confer, specifically over job creation, tax and social security. The clauses confer full power over income tax and a number of other taxes. We welcome the clarity provided by the Command Paper on the areas to be devolved.
We welcome the extension of powers over VAT going further than the Smith commission, but will the Minister explain why this change was made? On welfare, the clauses have the effect of transferring extensive new powers to the Scottish Parliament, in the region of £2.5 billion of welfare spending, in addition to the powers to create new benefits. Will the Minister confirm that the clauses as drafted respect the spirit and letter of the Smith agreement and allow the Scottish Government to create new benefits? Will he also explain the process that will now be taken forward to examine in more detail the consequential arrangements to adjust the Scottish block grant to reflect what will now be devolved to the Scottish Parliament?
My honourable friend the Member for Glasgow East has already raised with the Secretary of State, and at Scottish Questions, our desire to see the job-creating powers of the Work Programme passed to Scotland at the earliest opportunity. It continues to be our view that this could be achieved using a Section 106 order to transfer responsibility to the Scottish Government immediately. This would reduce any uncertainty about the effect of continuing contracts in Scotland and would allow others to start to remedy what we regard as a failure of this Government’s Work Programme in Scotland, which sees only one in five people into a job. Will the Minister again consider bringing forward these powers now?
Finally, I would welcome more clarity from the Minister on the devolution of the Crown Estate. Will he clarify the process that will be followed to determine the transfer scheme, and how long this process might take? Will he also explain to the House how the Government will ensure that the Smith commission’s recommendation that the powers are further devolved to our island communities will be seen through? Many in our rural and island communities will want guarantees about the devolution of the Crown Estate and that powers will be passed to the islands, as both the UK and Scottish Governments promised during the referendum.
This is another milestone in Scotland’s home rule journey. Today, we on this side of the House welcome the Command Paper and the draft clauses. I am pleased that the Government have stated their commitment to further consultation with us and with Civic Scotland. There is still work to be done, and we commit to carry this work through if it is not concluded by the election and we form the next Government. On 18 September 2014, the clear will of the people of Scotland was expressed. The Smith agreement was the response to that call for change that we heard. Today, one thing is clear—Scotland will have a powerhouse Parliament.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord very much for his comments and for his welcome of these clauses, which, as I think he acknowledged, implement ahead of time the spirit and letter of the Smith commission agreement. It is also particularly welcome that he indicated that any future Labour Government would take these clauses forward in the Queen’s Speech. It is important to note that that has been said today by all three parties which signed the pledge prior to the referendum, so those who might try to cast doubt on the commitment are just mischief-making. There is a very clear commitment on the part of all the parties that that should be done.
The noble Lord asked about the Barnett formula and the adjustment to the block grant. There is within the Command Paper, in the section dealing with the fiscal framework, an indication as to how the block grant will develop. As tax will be the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, the amount of tax generated will be deducted from the block grant. The Smith commission said that there had to be some means of indexation; it was quite good at saying that, but did not actually set it out. However, this will be discussed. The Command Paper sets out how it is intended to be done with regard to the devolution of income tax agreed in the Scotland Act 2012. There clearly will have to be discussions and I am pleased that the Deputy First Minister, Mr John Swinney, has already indicated to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State a willingness on the part of the Scottish Government to engage in these discussions on the fiscal framework. Whereas at the moment roughly 90% of the Scottish Parliament’s funding comes from the Barnett formula, once the 2012 Act arrangements and the Smith proposals are implemented it will reduce to 35%.
The noble Lord also asked about MPs’ voting and accurately quoted the passage from the Smith commission. There clearly is an issue, which has been raised, not only in regard to tax but on a number of issues. He is aware that the Government published a Command Paper on 16 December that looks at those issues. It is very difficult sometimes to disentangle what is devolved and what is not devolved. I certainly remember when—I was the Minister responsible for higher education in Scotland—this Parliament passed laws in relation to tuition fees in England and Wales, which had very direct consequences for Scotland. Sometimes it is too simplistic to say that just because it is not devolved it does not have implications for Scotland. But there is a legitimate debate to be had.
The White Paper sets up a number of options that the Conservative Party put forward and ones that my own party put forward. I am sure that the noble Lord’s party has its own view on this. The important point to make on this, however, is that the proposals that we are discussing today stand alone. They are not contingent—as we have made abundantly clear on a number of occasions—on any arrangement or Motions that might come forward with regard to “English votes for English laws”, as it is sometimes referred to.
With regard to VAT, the noble Lord asked why we went beyond the Smith commission—as well as the first 10% of the standard rate we will also assign 2.5% of the reduced rate of VAT. The answer is that, obviously, if the reduced rate is 5% one cannot assign 10%. We did, however, think it was in keeping with the spirit that we would assign half the revenue that comes from the reduced rate of VAT.
The noble Lord asked about welfare and it is certainly our belief that we have honoured the spirit of the Smith commission. In this, he is quite right to say that some £2.5 billion of welfare spending will be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. He asked about the detail of that, which is clearly considerable; none of us shies away from that. A ministerial working group on welfare has been established, which will be jointly chaired by my right honourable friend Mr David Mundell, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, and Mr Alex Neil, who is the Scottish Government’s Cabinet Secretary with responsibilities in this area.
The noble Lord asked about the Work Programme. There have been discussions between his honourable friend the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State on this. We take the view that this is a package. The only measure we have accelerated is the Section 30 order in relation to votes for 16 and 17 year-olds because of the necessity of getting that on the statute book in good time for the 2016 election. The Government support the devolution of the Work Programme but it must be done in a way that reflects the fact that Smith will mean that we have a shared welfare and unemployment support system between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. That is why we believe it has to be taken forward as a package. We do not know what the Scottish Government would do, and therefore do not think it would be right to take the risk that there would be no alternative programme or adequate transitional arrangements if we were to do it in very quick order. That is why we believe it should go forward as a package.
Finally, we have tried to devise a way in which we can devolve the Crown Estate, as the Smith commission recommended. I certainly share the noble Lord’s view that devolution does not stop in Edinburgh. He might expect me to say that, as I am a former parliamentary representative for the Northern Isles, which had very strong views on the Crown Estate. But, of course, further devolution is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. It is important, however, to put on record and remind the House that in his report the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin, as well as talking about further powers to the Scottish Parliament, made the point that it was important that the Scottish Parliament looked at ways in which it could devolve further powers to Scotland’s many communities.
Reservoirs (Scotland) Act 2011 (Restrictions on Disclosure of Information in relation to National Security etc.) Order 2015
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Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I do not have the loquacious back-up that my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely had—I am afraid that it is just me. Once again, I thank the Minister’s staff for the very clear notes. I hope that the Minister will be delighted to hear that I entirely agree with every word he said. It is competent, it is realistic; the security will remain. Unfortunately, recent events have compounded such concerns. I know that is not related to why we are here, but it is certainly a very big factor. The only thing I worry about is alerting people to the possibility of doing damage to reservoirs. I know that we cannot hold meetings in camera, but sometimes I wonder whether we should.
Paragraph 10 of the notes sent out by Ms Lopinska says that the House of Lords Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee did not draw this piece of legislation,
“to the special attention of the House of Lords. Nonetheless, this issue may come up during debate”.
Well, it is coming up only because I do not understand it. If the Minister were able to help me with that, I would be delighted. Having said that, it is a sensible move, it is quite apt, and it has our full support.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for welcoming this order, and I underline again the fact that we are constantly aware of and sensitive to issues of national security.
The position with regard to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee is that it sought further information on this order from the Scotland Office. The committee noted that the order would empower the Secretary of State, if they were of the opinion that the publication of a flood plan or any information relating to a flood plan would be contrary to the interests of national security, to serve a non-publication notice on any relevant person, but that people living in proximity to a reservoir would need to know about a flood plan in the interests of their own safety; therefore, non-publication of a flood plan runs the risk of placing such people in jeopardy. The committee asked whether this was the case and, as there is a wider public interest in such non-publication procedures, why there was no public consultation on the provisions of this order—this is in appendix 2 to the 16th Report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.
The Scotland Office provided a response to that point, indicating that flood plans under the Reservoirs (Scotland) Act 2011 are on-site flood plans only. They cover only what the reservoir managers themselves would do in the event of either a potential or an actual controlled release of water from a reservoir. They are not intended to replace off-site emergency response plans. That would be the responsibility of the local strategic co-ordinating group under the civil contingencies legislation. It was noted that full public consultation on the Act was carried out prior to its introduction in the Scottish Parliament, and in addition that regulations will be made under Section 55 of the 2011 Act that will introduce a requirement to produce flood plans, and these will be fully consulted upon. It would appear that, after the information was given in response to the committee’s request, it did not think it necessary to report it to the House—and that, by implication, it was satisfied with the response. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s question.
Scotland Act 1998 (River Tweed) Amendment Order 2015
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I am sure that it is not a duty, if one has the title of “Tweed”, to speak in everything related to Tweed. Indeed, I am not entirely sure whether I should declare an interest, given the title that I have adopted. I shall not delay the Committee much further. In these matters, one tends to defer to the wise men and women of the River Tweed Commission. After communications with the commission and acknowledgement that this is an enabling power for Scottish Ministers to bring forward details of how it will operate, as part of the ability to promote and recognise the produce from the finest river in the United Kingdom, I see no reason why the Committee should object to this—although other noble Lords with greater affinities for lesser rivers may perhaps have an issue.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
The local Liberals in the west of Scotland will be interested in the denigration of the great River Clyde, which provides employment for tens of thousands of people. I would not be so vindictive as to publicise it—or not much. Again, this is a common-sense measure. There is broad agreement on it and I do not think that anyone disputes that. I am sorry to have to say again—the Minister has already said it and I have said it—that it demonstrates that devolution works with common sense and that action can be taken quietly without any razzmatazz or publicity. The people of Scotland are well served by the 1998 Act and all its ramifications, which allow for measures such as this to take place in a businesslike manner. The order has our full support.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for expressing that support. I just say to my noble friend Lord Purvis of Tweed, who would probably have participated when the 2006 order was going through the Scottish Parliament, that perhaps he should be thankful that our noble friend Lord Stephen, of Lower Deeside, is not here, as he may have had something to say about the quality of salmon in our Scottish rivers. I commend the order to the Committee.
Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Act 2014 and Civil Partnership Act 2004 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2014
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Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I again express my gratitude to the Minister for his exposition and I do not think that the issue needs any further comments. As a firm supporter of civil partnerships at the time and now, I think that what is taking place is common sense. It is also worth mentioning that many fears and doubts were expressed at the time about religious freedom, but thanks to that common-sense co-operation this order will also protect those of a religious background who do not wish to take part in same-sex marriage and the registration of civil partnerships. I was in favour of that protection then and I am in favour of it now. The order should alleviate fears held among religious communities that there is a slippery road to enforcement, as this makes it clear that there is not. That is to the benefit of everyone who has an opinion on this, no matter whether it is for or against same-sex marriages. This order gives assurance of security and protection, and I welcome that. Again, this is sensible, and co-operation such as this gives devolution a good name. We support the measure.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am very grateful for the support for this order expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. As has been said, it is a product of a considerable amount of work.
On definitions, I can assure the noble and learned Lord that I am advised that Section 4 of the 2014 Act has a similar table of definitions.
I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that, as I said in my opening remarks, one of the functions of this order is to amend the Equality Act 2010, as it applies to Scotland, to give protection to celebrants and others who do not wish to take part in same-sex marriage ceremonies. I recall that I had some responsibility for this area of the 2013 legislation when it went through your Lordships’ House, and the Scottish Parliament has been equally concerned to ensure that proper protection is given.
Again, to reassure the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, I am sure that the Scottish Government still has to make some implementation orders, but equally the United Kingdom Government stand ready for any further measures. One would hope that the work has been done and that a pretty comprehensive approach has been taken, but obviously if, at some later date, things emerged that were not covered—indeed, part of this order deals with things that were not covered in the implementation of the civil partnership legislation—we would stand ready to undertake the necessary legislation to address that. On that basis, I commend the order to the Committee.
Scotland Act 1998 (Functions Exercisable in or as Regards Scotland) Order 2015
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Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend for a clear exposition of how this order will impact on the existing powers of the Scottish Parliament and use the good mechanisms of our constitutional arrangements to further strengthen the powers of the Scottish Parliament. Noble Lords will appreciate that, when I was a Member of that Parliament for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale, I represented a number of cross-border farmers as a Borders MSP. There were always ongoing issues with regards to cross-border status.
My query is specific to the context of the radical proposal for land reform that has been outlined in general terms by the Scottish Government, but not in specifics yet. Is the order limited specifically to CAP processing or will it in any circumstances relate to the law of succession of title of cross-border properties? Is this all now within the scope of Scottish Ministers? One has not been able to read in any great detail about the land reform proposals with regard to laws of succession on title for farming properties and land. I wonder whether this will now be wholly for the Scottish Parliament to legislate on, or will that continue to be an area where there are legal aspects for those farming families or the land, both north and south of the border, that remain within the competences of the two Parliaments?
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, once again, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his clear exposition of what is in front of us. If farmers were facing confusion, doubt or difficulties in any transactions, it is only right that that should be addressed. There are some questions as to why this took so long if those questions had always been raised; nevertheless, this is a good move because it is only right that any extra anxiety, worries or time-consuming matters are removed from farmers and small businesses. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, made an interesting point. I thought that he would keep his fire for the third item of business. I thought of raising the matter myself, but it goes beyond the scope of this order. Seeing that someone has raised that issue, perhaps the noble and learned Lord will give an answer.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Purvis of Tweed for the point that he raises, but he will note that the order indicates that the specified functions under EU law relate to European Union implementation of the common agricultural policy. Therefore, the purpose of this order is to allow payments under the common agricultural policy and the IACS system to be made by one Administration within the United Kingdom rather than having a plethora of different applications. The order bears no relevance to issues related to succession and land on either side of the border—or for that matter in such situations in Wales or Northern Ireland. When it comes to matters of succession, the law would apply in the particular jurisdiction in which the land lies. I am not saying that there would not be a lot of political issues around that, but the purpose of this order relates to the making of IACS payments. I commend the order to the Committee.
Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Act 2014 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2014
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The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)
My Lords, in moving that the draft order laid before the House on 13 October 2014 be considered, I intend to provide the Committee with a brief summary of what the order seeks to achieve. The order is made under Section 104 of the Scotland Act 1998, which allows for necessary or expedient changes to UK legislation in consequence of an Act of the Scottish Parliament. The order is made in consequence of the Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Act 2014, which for convenience I shall refer to as the 2014 Act.
The 2014 Act establishes Revenue Scotland as the tax authority with responsibility for devolved taxes and puts in place a framework that provides for a range of administrative functions that will apply to devolved taxes. That framework includes: the powers and duties of Revenue Scotland; the rights and obligations of Scottish taxpayers; how tax disputes will be handled; details of time limits, penalties and sanctions; the treatment of taxpayer information; and, provisions relating to tax avoidance. The 2014 Act also makes provision for Revenue Scotland to delegate some or all of its powers to Registers of Scotland in relation to land and buildings transaction tax, and to the Scottish Environment Protection Agency in relation to the Scottish landfill tax.
The order will give the 2014 Act full effect. It will establish Revenue Scotland as a part of the Scottish Administration in order that it will be accountable to the Scottish Parliament but independent of the Scottish Government. In order to tackle tax avoidance successfully, the order will make provision in relation to information sharing between Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and Revenue Scotland. Of course, any information that Revenue Scotland receives from HMRC will be treated as confidential protected taxpayer information, as provided for by Section 15 of the 2014 Act.
The order will also add Revenue Scotland and Registers of Scotland as prescribed persons to the schedule to the Public Interest Disclosure (Prescribed Persons) Order 2014 whilst adding “Scottish landfill tax” to the specified matters in respect of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency to ensure the same protection for whistleblowers who assist those bodies, under the Employment Rights Act 1996, as that afforded to whistleblowers who contact HMRC.
Additionally, this order will insert a reference to Revenue Scotland into the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975 to disqualify members of Revenue Scotland from being Members of the House of Commons.
Yet again a Section 104 order demonstrates this Government’s continued commitment to working with the Scottish Government to make the devolution settlement work. I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.
Lord McAvoy (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanation and I thank his staff for making sure that I was briefed. I was indeed fully briefed, given the number of items that came my way, but they were all welcome—that is part of transparency.
I have nothing really to add to the clear explanation that the Minister has given other than to comment that this order demonstrates yet again how the 1998 devolution Act is working at a steady pace and with a common-sense approach, with things being devolved or retained as it makes sense to do so. The order also indicates a level of co-operation from the Scottish Parliament that its Members would perhaps do well to publicise more—there is not the friction or arguments every day of the week as might be suggested by some of the SNP people there. There is sensible co-operation, as the Minister has outlined, and this order has our full support.