Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Martin of Springburn Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

6: Clause 1, page 2, line 3, at end insert—
“(6) Within three months of the passing of this Act the Secretary of State must, by order or regulations, create a statutory list of religious bodies owning or controlling premises who notify him that they do not wish to be eligible to undertake an opt-in activity for the purposes of section 2.
(7) Any body listed in the statutory list created by subsection (6) may not undertake an opt-in activity for the purposes of section 2.
(8) The Secretary of State must, by order or regulations, amend the statutory list in subsection (6) if any body notifies him that they wish to be included or removed.”

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[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I note that the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, is not here but I understand that the amendment is the property of the House and that I am entitled to move it. I seek some information from the Minister on this issue.

The amendment says that, within three months of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must make an order or regulations,

“to create a statutory list of religious bodies owning or controlling premises”.

It is the controlling of premises about which I am interested in getting some information from the Minister.

I was interested in what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, had to say about Church of England clergy. It occurred to me that this legislation may be re-enacted north of the border and I wonder how this will affect Church of Scotland ministers. As the Minister knows, there is a Church of Scotland church in Pont Street—I believe it is called St Columba’s. There is also the Crown Court Church in Covent Garden, where Scottish Members are always welcomed at the beginning of each new Parliament for what, north of the border, we call a kirkin. It would be interesting if it means that there is an established churches’ ruling down here which will not apply to Church of Scotland ministers but the legislation that comes in north of the border is slightly different. How might that apply to Church of Scotland ministers who are practising in London or in other parts of the country? I shall leave the noble and learned Lord to ponder on that. I do not need an answer right away.

Where this amendment caught my eye was on the controlling of premises. I, of all people, never believe everything that is in the newspapers. In fact, I once advised a younger Member to check even the date on a newspaper and to use some other means to make sure that it was accurate. However, it has been recorded in at least two newspapers that I know of that government Ministers have approached the authorities of this House with regard to the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft, which some of us know affectionately as St Stephen’s Crypt. The story in the newspapers suggested that, in order to give equality to same-sex marriages, the crypt could perhaps be turned into a prayer room rather than being a place of worship controlled by the Church of England.

First, I would point out to the noble and learned Lord and other noble Lords that I am not in the business of trying to scupper or put blockages in the way of legislation that has come from the other House and been approved by this House. However, I am entitled to ask questions. Those who wish to be married in that church can get a full marriage only if they are members of the Church of England and are seeking to have a Church of England priest to marry them. If a member of the Catholic Church wishes to get married in the crypt, a small service has to take place further up the road at Westminster Cathedral and then a fuller service can take place in the crypt. It is said that this is about giving everybody equality, but equality is not practised currently and I am not seeking that equality. My point in raising this is that the Church of England has full authority in that little church, for which we all have great affection. I understand that it is a peculiar, a Church of England term which means that the monarch can have some say in the matter. If am wrong in these things, I am sure I will be corrected.

I ask the Minister because I do not have full regard for what is printed in the press. That is why I am on my feet tonight. If there is any feeling that changes should be made for that little crypt of St Stephen’s, then it should be the membership of this House and the Members of the other place who make inquiries about this matter, not Ministers, who are often quick when it suits them to say, “Well, we are the Executive and there are matters for the House and for the membership of both Houses”. I would take a very dim view if a Minister had gone to anyone who has any authority over St Mary Undercroft without consulting me or anyone else through those who represent us here—perhaps the Lord Speaker or the Chairman of Committees.

This throws up another matter, on which I may be less qualified to speak. The legislation says that the Church of England shall be exempt. If anyone in government is able to change the place of worship of the Church of England here in the Palace of Westminster, they would be able to do so in any other place of worship within the Church of England. As a Catholic, I wanted a Catholic marriage in a Catholic church when I married 45 years ago. I do not deny anybody the right to argue with a lot of this legislation. However, same-sex couples feel that as Christians there is no reason why they should not be able not only to get married within the rites of the Church of England, and indeed the Catholic Church, but also to take advantage of the fact that they would then be able to get married in the church itself, rather than a hotel or anywhere else.

It is not the right of government to make approaches. If those articles are correct the approaches were made before Second Reading in the other place. To me, that is wrong. If it is true, then Ministers or a Minister have overstepped themselves. If it is not true, then when he replies the Minister can put my mind at ease. I beg to move.

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[Lord Martin of Springburn]

I thank the noble and learned Lord. That clarifies the matter. So once again the papers have got it wrong and the true story is that clarification was sought from the Lord Great Chamberlain and the case is perhaps as I stated it, but no Minister has made any approach to seek to get the Crypt—as we call it—turned into a prayer room rather than a church.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The position is as I understand the noble Lord to have described it: to my knowledge and that of my noble friend, no Minister has made an approach of the kind the noble Lord describes. As I indicated, the issue having been raised in Committee, the Minister Helen Grant undertook to consider it. Officials approached the Office of the Lord Great Chamberlain—possibly not the Lord Great Chamberlain himself—to seek clarification, and the position on the use or non-use of St Mary Undercroft is as I have set out. I hope that gives clarity.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 6 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Cumberlege]

My Lords, this Bill is not about mixed-race marriages but about same-sex marriages. That is what I am addressing.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

Does the noble Baroness know of any religious faith that would object to a mixed-race marriage?

[Baroness Cumberlege]

No, my Lords, I do not know of any. I have just a little more to say before I finish. Our proposed new clause will promote rather than hinder tolerance, because individuals will be more likely to live in harmony, even if their thoughts and beliefs are entirely contradictory. Harmony, broad-mindedness and tolerance are more likely to be achieved if both those who do and those who do not believe that same-sex marriages should be available feel that their beliefs are equally valued and protected.

In conclusion, our proposed new clause strikes a sensible balance between the rights of those wishing to get married and the rights of those with conscientious objections to conducting same-sex marriages. It will allow individuals conscientiously to object only in certain limited circumstances. It will not allow anyone with a conscientious objection to communicate that objection to anyone wishing to get married at a register office. It will not allow any registrar to make their beliefs publicly known through their work. It will allow registrars quietly to refrain from conducting same-sex marriages only where there are enough other registrars to cover demand. Surely this is a better approach.

Earlier this evening, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, talked about a middle way. I agree with her. This House encourages tolerance. Our amendment would protect the rights of individuals with conscientious objections, and also allow same-sex couples to get married. To me, that is the middle way. I urge the Minister—