Iraq

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad that the Government are proposing to strengthen our homeland security. There is much that can be done. Indeed, I have been urging certain actions, which have become much more relevant now, on the Government for many years. Part of today’s problem stems from western naivety to the Arab spring and, as has been mentioned, the longstanding hypocrisy to the cruel Wahhabi theocracy in Saudi Arabia. I believe that we have been on the wrong side over Syria from the start. A number of noble Lords have questioned whether it is sensible for the new military strategy—I can see why at the moment it has to be so—to be confined to Iraq.

Egypt, the largest Arab nation, is central to the problem we face and perhaps is a key to its resolution. In February and in June, I was part of two all-party groups to Egypt and we met President Sisi, as he now is, on both occasions. We met him for two and a half hours on the first occasion and for an hour and a half on the second. Two days ago, President Sisi, in a notable speech to the UN, said:

“Our aim is to build a ‘New Egypt’ … A state that respects and enforces the rule of law, guarantees freedom of opinion for all and ensures freedom of belief and worship to its people. A state that is determined to achieve growth, prosperity, and a promising future that meets the aspirations of its people”.

That is a notable aim for a secular state with democratic characteristics—a noble aim, but one that is hard to achieve.

I understand that President Sisi had a productive meeting with Prime Minister Cameron in New York this week. We need to follow that up. I suggest that arrangements be made for President Sisi to visit London with some of his colleagues at an early date for detailed discussions with Prime Minister Cameron and other British leaders and experts on how the UK can help to build the new Egypt.

The Egyptian economy is crucial and it needs massive restructuring. Egypt needs technical help on how to do this, particularly on reducing the distorting subsidies and on producing an equitable tax system on which the Egyptian business community must support President Sisi. Egypt has shown that the first priority should be to replace theocracy with secular government. Let us hope that President Sisi turns out to be an Ataturk for his country. Theocracy is not only the antithesis of democracy but, when based on political Islam, can lead to the cruel and uncompromising dictatorship represented by ISIS.

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As regards what has happened over the past few days, there was a meeting last week of the European Council where it was agreed that further steps were necessary in terms of strengthening sanctions. That decision was taken before the tragic incident on Thursday. We have been talking to our European partners throughout the weekend and have had extensive discussions. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will work very hard to ensure that there is clarity tomorrow and that further steps are taken in accordance with what I have already said we believe is necessary—to force Russia to withdraw and de-escalate.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, on the—

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, on Russia, I welcome the Prime Minister’s suggestion that it is time to make our power, influence and resources felt. May I make a practical and proportionate suggestion that one measure would be to suspend all civil air flights to and from Russia? Ideally, this would cover the whole EU and the USA. Although, Mr Putin would, of course, find methods to fly people in and out of Russia, it would be at a heavy cost, both economically and in terms of Russia’s status in the world.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I take note of the proposal put forward by my noble friend. I do not believe that that is one of the specific steps that we are currently considering but I am happy to talk further to him about his idea.

EU Council

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I completely understand the points that my noble friend makes. Those are very alive in the minds of our Ministers and officials negotiating this because they are keen to safeguard the position that my noble friend sets out very clearly.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I was very glad to see in the Statement the sentence:

“Deregulation is now part of the EU agenda in a way that it simply has not been before”.

I noted the distinguished membership of the meeting chaired by the Prime Minister on the Business Task Force report, including President Barroso and the leading countries in Europe. There was a startling and very prominent absence from that list of countries, which was France. Would I be right in thinking that part of the reason for France’s absence is that it does not share our approach on this matter at all? The biggest single bit of business regulation—and I would argue the most unjustified—that the French go in for is the 35-hour week, which is policed by a mixture of inspection and denunciation, which must be very bad for the business sector in France. Perhaps, in that sense, a bit of schadenfreude might be in order, but I do not express it. I say that it is wrong that the EU, if it means anything on these matters, should have such an example of business regulation.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My noble friend is right that the French approach things differently from us. When he talks of schadenfreude, the point to which I would refer him is the fact the Germans were there at the Prime Minister’s launch. Those who have, like my noble friend, studied the dynamic within Europe over a very long period of time would recognise the relationship between the UK and Germany. The work that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has put into trying to strengthen that relationship is an important part of helping to counterbalance some of the views held by other member states to which my noble friend refers.

Death of a Member: Baroness Thatcher

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 10th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I suppose that one thing that one thinks most about Margaret Thatcher is that she was the most courageous challenger. One reason why I think she will have an increasing part in the history books is that she presided over and contributed to the ending of one of the great political struggles in this country: the struggle between capitalism and socialism as economic systems.

Margaret Thatcher could always see the real point. For three and a half years, I was in Whitehall as an adviser and worked a certain amount with a think tank. I remember well that, on one occasion, the presentation made at Chequers by the think tank was to show where the Government were going, even if they did not want to go there. I remember that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, was demonstrating the way in which inflation would reach unthinkable double digits. There was a silence, broken by Margaret Thatcher thumping on her blotter at the Cabinet table in Chequers, saying, “If that chart is true, we have lost the next election”. Then Tony Barber, who was the Chancellor at the time, waded in to say that it was not true—but of course it was.

I point out to the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, who said what a pity it was that Margaret Thatcher had not tried to talk more to the union leaders, that no one could have tried harder to talk to the union leaders than Ted Heath. Indeed, we had something called tripartite government, which was government, industry and unions. A fat lot of good that did.

After the 1974 election, I used, as a fonctionnaire, to attend meetings of the shadow Cabinet. They were very difficult meetings because Mr Heath did not accept that he had made mistakes and that things had to change. He and Sir Keith Joseph used to spar. I remember, on one occasion, Ted Heath saying to Keith Joseph, “I suppose that you’d let British Leyland go to the wall”. Keith Joseph said, “Of course I would, if it could not put its house in order”. Ted replied, “In that case, you would have blood on the streets”. It was all awkward and difficult. As the shadow Cabinet left the room, I was following behind, when Margaret Thatcher came up to me and said, “Mark, you know, Keith has nearly had enough, and the day he goes, I go”. It was basically from that moment that she realised the need to make a challenge that had never previously been made.

I was struck by the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, about the unions. Of course there was huge variation. Some union leaders were people of great patriotism who did a wonderful job, but there were others, often in powerful positions, who used their position not in the interests of their members but to lead them over the economic cliff, often into economic suicide and unemployment. In British Leyland, Red Robbo was leading the union. It was a hopeless system. Now, as a result of restructuring, we once again have a great automobile industry in this country. We could never have done that if that challenge had not been made.

I would describe one of Margaret Thatcher’s great contributions as being to what I call liberation politics. She liberated a lot of people who had had no prospects because they were in the proletariat herd. She hugely enlarged the middle class—the bourgeoisie—of this country. As a result of the structural changes that she introduced, we are a much more equal society than we were then. Far more people—tens or hundreds of thousands of people—now have the opportunity to run their own lives in a way that they did not have before she was around and was Prime Minister.

Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL]

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Marlesford]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I have no intention of seeking to delay this piece of legislation, but I would like some assurances from the Minister. This is obviously a beautiful square, which was greatly enhanced by the cleaning up of the stonework at Westminster Abbey, and of the stonework and the creation of the visitors’ centre here at the Palace of Westminster. However, approximately 10 years ago, the Home Office promised and delivered a Bill through both Houses which stated that it would stop the permanent encampment of people like the late Mr Brian Haw in the square. He turned the square into an absolute eyesore and indeed a health hazard. All sorts of strange things happened at that place because of his permanent encampment. Every time that the police acted on the legislation that was introduced by the Home Office, a judge—and I make no criticism of the judges—duly instructed them to put Mr Haw’s dirty and unsightly equipment back on to the square, facing the House of Commons, where visitors from all over the world would turn up. It was a disgraceful situation.

Procedure of the House

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I have an interest in the subject raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. It is not true that the Prime Minister responded to my Questions and those of the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, with something irrelevant. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, said, “Blah, blah, blah”. The answer to me was that, whatever the Government committed themselves to in this matter, it would be the Prime Minister who decided—full stop. That is where we stood with Written Answers last week.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I would never presume to call myself a politician. I suppose that, if anything, I am an observer of politics who occasionally commentates on it. In the 16 years that I was the lobby correspondent for the Economist, from 1975 to 1991, the House of Commons did not have a guillotine as routine, and again and again I saw its effect as an exceptional measure. It was something that the Government of the day considered very carefully. I saw the good effect that it had on the process of negotiation and the scrutiny of legislation, and the extent to which it resulted in better outcomes of that legislation. However, I was shocked when Mr Tony Blair’s Government introduced the guillotine as a regular feature and I was disappointed when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister perpetuated it. I found myself asking: if we were to have an elected Senate here, how long would it be before the guillotine was introduced here and then who would scrutinise the Executive?

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart]

My Lords, as a member of the Leader’s Group, I have noticed that not a great deal of this debate has been devoted to the consideration given by that group to the matters under discussion today. That of course is partly because times have moved on and there are matters hanging over the future of this House that may have altered some people’s perceptions. However, it ought to be recognised that the Leader’s Group gave quite close consideration to these issues. It took a great deal of evidence and concluded that Grand Committee procedure leads to better scrutiny of primary legislation. One reason given was that there was,

“greater informality of the Grand Committee and the better communications between ministers and officials, leading to better quality responses”.

Having said that, the Leader’s Group also took the view that certain matters arouse such considerable interest beyond those who might normally be anticipated to have an interest in the subject matter of the debate that they would be inappropriately held in Grand Committee. We have actually seen the limitations of the space available in an earlier debate at the end of the last calendar year when we were discussing the European Union eurozone crisis. The Room was full to bursting and there was not enough time or space for everyone who wanted to participate.

Consequently, I think that the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has some merit in it because it recognises—and explicitly recognises by quotation—the words and the reasoning of the Leader’s Group. I also acknowledge, however, that deciding what constitutes an exceptionally controversial Bill—as was pointed out to us by the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd—is difficult to determine. I do not feel confident that presumptions can be made on that point; and I do not believe that the usual channels will necessarily agree on it. It seems that these should be matters for the decision of the House when the Bill is first debated.

European Council

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord always speaks here with the voice of experience and knowledge, not least as an author of EU conclusions. I think that he said, in this rather empty House, that he is just a little bit cynical about these conclusions. It is easy to become cynical when you read these conclusions and you see the same words and phrases coming up again. I shall resist the temptation to join the Prime Minister in saying that this is a new dawn. However, the Prime Minister is very keen that when the EU says it is going to do something, it should do so. That is why he has very much been at the vanguard of making the arguments that he has, and I know that he will hold the Commission to account over the months and years ahead. Incidentally, I agree with the noble Lord about being a little bit cynical; I agree with him about the financial transaction tax. We are doing well today.

What about Kosovo? The noble Lord made a point that will be endlessly discussed over the next few years vis-à-vis the situation within the United Kingdom. I have not got an answer as to whether all the countries of the EU have recognised Kosovo. At the moment we are seeking to encourage both Serbia and Kosovo to maintain their constructive approach to further dialogue. This is crucial to the EU futures of both Serbia and Kosovo, and to stability in the region and improving the lives of its people.

One thing that came out, of course, was that the General Affairs Council gave impetus to Kosovo’s EU future this week—but I do not think that was necessarily the point the noble Lord was making, which was infinitely more subtle and will require a little bit more homework from my point of view. However, I am sure that other parts of the EU seeking to secede from their mother countries will want to see not only what is developing in Kosovo but in other parts of the EU as well.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, can my noble friend the Leader expand a little on paragraph 26 of the Council conclusions on contributions to the IMF funds? I think I am right in saying that the G20 agreed that the amount of funds for the IMF should be reviewed; that the review came up with the need to double them and that this doubling would cost Britain about £10 billion, but that this £10 billion does not count as part of public spending because it is merely a guarantee rather than a cash payment.

Am I right in thinking that HMG will be favourably disposed to playing their part—the part I have just described—in the increase in the IMF funds, assuming that 70 per cent minimum collaboration is achieved, but that if there was a special fund to rescue the eurozone by producing funds through the IMF, as is slightly referred to in paragraph 26, Britain would not contribute to that?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend knows that we are a founding member of the IMF and we are very much supporters of a well funded IMF. It is one of the most creditworthy institutions in the world, which can draw on resources from all its 187 members to fulfil its role. There are no firm proposals on the table yet. However, I can confirm to my noble friend that we have been clear, consistently, and will continue to be clear that the IMF cannot lend money to support a currency.

House of Lords: Reform

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, the road to parliamentary hell is paved with good intentions translated into sloppily drafted, ill prepared, insensitive legislation. We have had a plethora of it over the past year. The White Paper and Bill do not even have the redeeming feature of good intentions. Perhaps the most scandalous revelation we have had in this debate was that by the Leader of the Opposition, when she told us how the members of the Joint Committee set up to produce the proposals were treated. They met only seven times—the last time six months before publication—and neither saw nor approved the draft White Paper or the Bill. I am amazed that they did not resign in indignation at that treatment.

I shall focus on just two points. The first is the practical constitutional one, which we have talked about, which is the balance of power between the Legislature and the Executive. Secondly, I shall suggest how to reduce the size of the House of Lords in a way that is voluntary, democratic, compassionate and cost-effective.

It was in his 1976 Dimbleby lecture that Lord Hailsham described Britain as an “elective dictatorship”. “Parliament”, he said,

“is now largely in the hands of the Government machine, so that the executive controls the legislature and not vice versa”.

He went on:

“Owing to the operation of the guillotine and other regulations designed to curtail debate, much of the programme is often not discussed at all”.

Although at that time the House of Lords had a massive built-in Tory majority, the constitutional conventions inhibited its use. In 1997, this situation took a serious turn for the worse. The Blair Government decided to use the guillotine routinely on all legislation so as to maximise the flow of legislation, with little regard to the consequences.

I was for 16 years in the Lobby. Indeed, I must confess that, apart from a few years as a party fonctionnaire, I cannot claim to be a proper politician at all. I was a mere observer of and commentator on the political scene, and I suppose that that is all I remain. However, I remember clearly that when there was an important Bill that was running into real difficulties, we used to speculate that the Government might be forced to introduce a guillotine. In those days, that had real political significance.

I had hoped, and indeed was confident, that one of the first things the coalition would do would be to end the automatic use of the guillotine on legislation. To my disappointment and to Mr Cameron's shame, there is no sign of that happening, so our people remain ever more reliant on the House of Lords to subject legislation to proper scrutiny untrammelled by timetables. Since the 1999 reform, this House has had growing confidence in doing so.

Who can doubt that if Mr Clegg's dreams were enacted it would not be long before that opportunity for scrutiny would be emasculated? All Governments are ruthless when they can be, and a regular guillotine would arrive with the senate. That, incidentally, is why the Opposition should never repeat the disgraceful filibuster tactics that they used here last year—although I admit that they had much provocation.

I come to the best way of keeping the size of the membership of the House within reasonable limits. I do not buy the idea that it is making the House harder to operate. An overcrowded Question Time is no bad thing. After the House of Commons was bombed, the new Chamber was designed precisely to achieve that. However, our membership is now more than 800, although the daily attendance is 450. I would set a limit of about 500. None of the alternatives in the Leader's Group report on the issue of Members leaving the House, which we will discuss in due course, seems to be acceptable. I believe the proposal for group elections put forward in the excellent speeches by my noble friends Lord Jopling and Lord Reay involves compulsion, which would have undesirable consequences.

One reason that voluntary retirement on its own would not work is the new daily tax-free allowance of £300. I most warmly congratulate my noble friend Lord Strathclyde on his courage in introducing it, because it has ended once and for all the risk of further scandals on expenses—in this House, anyway.

My proposal is that on taking permanent retirement, any Peer should receive a tax-free single-sum gratuity for public service. Each Peer would receive the amount he or she asked for—provided, of course, that no one was prepared to accept a lower sum. One way of operating it would be for the Government to open it for, say, 50 retirements. Anyone could apply and the sums paid out to those who succeeded would of course be published; the unsuccessful bids would not. Bids would be accepted up to a limit of 50 seats or so or until the sum available had run out. The process could be repeated periodically until the number was down to the required total.

That may be an unusual suggestion, but I believe that once it had been thought through by the media and the public it would be seen as being transparent, truly voluntary and, most importantly, cost-effective.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I would be grateful if between now and the report from the committee scrutinising the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, could write for me what he thinks the Sunday Telegraph and the Mail editorials would be on his proposal.

[Lord Marlesford]

I never attempt to write editorials for other papers.

Meanwhile, I support the call for a moratorium on numbers made in April by the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and others in the UCL House Full report.

Mr Cameron has a problem. In this package, he is offering Mr Clegg a sum of Danegeld that he cannot pay; his cheque will bounce. As has been made clear, there can be no question of whipping this Bill through this House. The simplest solution would be for the House of Commons, where there is, in any case, a growing number of Members opposed to Mr Clegg's best guess, to be offered a free vote at Second Reading, if ever it gets that far, and for the Conservative Whips to indicate that the Prime Minister would not be heartbroken if it were defeated. After all, it is the supremacy of the House of Commons that we are debating.

On the point about us not being representatives, many people in this House have been elected representatives for a long time, but now we are all servants of the people. That is no dishonourable title.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, it may be helpful to the House if I indicate that, after we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, I propose to adjourn the debate for a short while so that we may convene for Questions. I shall make appropriate announcements at that stage.

Libya and the Middle East

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the defection of senior Libyan diplomats from around the world may prove to have been a significant component in the removal of Gaddafi? Furthermore, in the context of the withdrawal of the British diplomatic mission from Tripoli, is there any news on what is happening to the Libyan embassy in London?

[Lord Strathclyde]

No, my Lords, there is no news on the embassy in London. But my noble friend is right that the defection of senior Libyan diplomats, particularly at the United Nations, was a signal to many others that this regime had come to an end. That is part of the combined exerted pressure that we wish to see to encourage more defections and bring this regime to an end as quickly as possible.

Houses of Parliament: Access during Demonstrations

Lord Marlesford Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I warmly agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Soley, has just said. It is extremely important that at all times Members of this House and another place have unhindered access to go about their business in Parliament. However, the police have a very difficult job. While they do everything that they can to make sure that the entrances are not overwhelmed, very occasionally that happens. As Members of this House, we need to be aware of alternative routes so that we can still get here to do our duty.

[Lord Marlesford]

Does my noble friend agree that part of the business of Parliament is to respond to the lobbying of Members of Parliament and that maximum practical access to the Palace for lobbyists is desirable, first, so that they can make their points and, secondly, so that parliamentarians can respond? Last week, those of us who saw it would have realised that there were far fewer lobbyists here than the House could comfortably accommodate, which was a pity. Part of that was a product of the problems in Parliament Square. Does my noble friend agree with the point made by my noble friend Lady Trumpington yesterday that one of the real problems is the permanent encampment in Parliament Square, which occupies a lot of space and is therefore an obstacle to democracy?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I certainly agree that part of the role of Parliament is to accept those who wish to lobby Parliament and parliamentarians in this building, which is why we support the peaceful right to protest. I also agree with what my noble friend Lady Trumpington said. It is a view shared by many people in both Houses that what seems to be a permanent encampment in Parliament Square is no longer necessary, if it ever was. That is why the Government have published proposals to try to tackle the problem.