Draft Civil Proceedings, First-tier Tribunal, Upper Tribunal and Employment Tribunals Fees (Amendment) Order 2016

Lord Mann Excerpts

Thursday 7th July 2016 General Committees

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

We all know who is behind this order: a Chancellor of the Exchequer who is totally discredited. All his proposals should be taken off the table now. He has failed to introduce his promised emergency Budget that he said was necessary, and now he is punishing the most vulnerable people in society, probably because of the way that they voted in the referendum.

I am no lawyer, but I take employment tribunal cases for constituents like Alan Hardwick, who has spent 15 years working for the same employer. He gets locked out and then finds that some new agency workers who happen to be new migrant workers in the country are taking his job. They are there the next day, being paid a lot less, and he has to go to a tribunal to try to get anything out of it. The law is already far too weak for people like Mr Alan Hardwick.

Or there is Michaela Lake, who is 16 years old. She and her colleague are in their first ever job, working in a hairdresser’s. They work for four weeks and do not get paid. The owner disappears, and they have still never been paid. I track him down on a Tory website, because he is a Tory donor and activist in Gosport, but what can Michaela and her colleague do? How can they pay the fees? Michaela Lake had not been paid; that was why she was going to a tribunal. Not a penny was paid in her first job—welcome to flexible labour market Britain. Welcome to fairness Britain. And some people wonder why there is a bit of a people’s rebellion going on at the moment. Why should she have to pay anything? Why should she have to pay more to go to a tribunal?

What about John Anderton, a driver with Eddie Stobart, or Brian Jackson, or 50 others who were slung out as the company was restructured? Every one of them has to pay a fee to go to tribunal to get the money they are owed, never mind compensation or the redundancy they have not been given. They have to pay a fee to get their holiday pay and their wages from the last week they worked. Stobart is not a tiny little employer like that Tory from Gosport, but employers like that still do the same thing. The balance of power is wrong.

The law is too weak, yet Parliament chooses not to listen to what is going on out there and not to get a glimmer of inspiration from the people. Many of them have never voted before, but they are now participating in politics in this country, and look at how they voted. Brian Jackson had a big poster up when I went past his house in Langold village, which voted 85% in a certain direction.

Tory Members voted in different ways, so I am just appealing to those of them who want to remain in contact with the wider public. I say to them, vote with your conscience. Here is an opportunity to knock back the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who hits the wrong people in the wrong way. Let us make a little mark by standing up for the little man, the little woman and the 16-year-old who has not been paid. Let us stand up for people’s rights and for empowerment, because that is what this is about.

Of course the money matters, but this is about empowerment and what we say to people about how they are being forced to pay, and then pay more, for their basic human rights. There are people who work at 16 years old and do not get paid at all. What kind of country are we living in where it is not automatic that their employer should be jailed, never mind taken to a tribunal? That 16-year-old should be paid to go to a tribunal, never mind having to pay fees to go to it. That goes for Alan Hardwick too, and for Brian Jackson, John Anderton and many more of my constituents. Those are just the ones I have represented in tribunals. Sometimes nobody bothers turning up, or sometimes there are fancy lawyers there who are paid lots of money to defend the indefensible, minimise the situation, talk about the technicalities of how the forms are filled in and grab back the money that is due to decent people from my constituency. That is why this is so important.

I see that heads are down on the Conservative Benches, but I want to look into the eyes of the Tories who want to stay in touch with the world. There could be an election coming up; they have to be careful. My advice is to listen to what the people are saying and, on this occasion, vote with the Opposition parties.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman is right that the Scottish Government have taken a different approach. However, there has been a distinct lack of any mention of where they will get the money from. From which other budget will they take it? Until that response is given, the promise of scrapping one set of fees is somewhat hollow, commendable though it is. There is an element of balancing budgets here.

It is not unreasonable to charge people who use the courts and tribunals system so that they make a contribution for that use. The order is not about profit—it is simply wrong to say that it is. In fact, it shows a complete lack of understanding of how the courts and tribunals system operates. It is abundantly clear that the fees will be used to help run the courts and tribunals system and will go towards the additional £700 million that the Chancellor has made available to ensure that we have a 21st-century, first-class courts system that is the envy of the world. There is simply not a bottomless pit of money, and we must remember that we are talking about taxpayers’ money.

The issue of employment tribunal fees is not relevant to this debate, but I will briefly make one or two comments to rebut some points that have been made. As the hon. Member for Glasgow South West said, the latest figure for the cost of employment tribunals was £71 million a year. It is therefore not unreasonable that the public should contribute towards the use of those tribunals. What has not been taken note of, however, is that some 83,000 people have used the ACAS early conciliation scheme, which is free.

It is ironic that some Members here claim to represent the public, given what they have said today. Indeed, the hon. Member for Bassetlaw said that we are not in touch with the public. He is the one who is not in touch with the public, because he is seeking to scrap fees. We are instead encouraging people to use a system that is absolutely free, with no lawyers’ fees, no court fees—no anything. We have the irony that these people are standing up and advocating a system of people going to employment tribunals, which would necessitate cost.

[John Mann]

Irony? The irony is that people are required to go to ACAS. Does the Minister think that in the cases that I take, we do not go to ACAS? The employers, like that Gosport Tory, refuse to answer the phone calls and letters from ACAS. Of course we go through ACAS. These bad employers do not settle in ACAS. I do not suggest that the taxpayer should be funding the service—of course the taxpayer should not be funding it. There should instead be proper fines for employers that break the law. That is how the tribunal system ought to operate, and that—enforcing and strengthening the law—would be easy to do.

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman said that he was not a lawyer, but he does not have to be a lawyer to know that people who go to employment tribunals and win are entitled to have their costs repaid, including the cost of the fee.