Children and Families Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Lord Storey

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, we have had a briefing from Universities UK on this subject, which I suspect was compiled largely by talking to registrars, who wish that the problem would go away and who feel that it is not really their responsibility. I think disability officers in universities would take a rather different attitude, which is that they are not receiving the support they need regarding health and social care from their local authorities or clinical commissioning groups, which tend to regard the itinerant student population as somebody else’s responsibility and to think that an 18-month waiting list for mental health treatment for a student is appropriate.

I think there is a wish within universities for a better connected, more responsive system, such as we are putting in place for students in FE. I understand from what various noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, have said that there are some aspects of the system that has been put in place for younger ages that would not fit universities. We ought to look carefully at what would suit university students. We ought to do so by talking to the people in universities who have to deal with these problems. They are conscious that the system they face at the moment is not by any means as good as it might be, and not as good as the sorts of things we are putting in place through this Bill.

I hope my noble friend will allow me to come and keep her company between now and Report with some of the people who deal with this as a daily issue in higher education to see whether there are some changes, whether in guidance or the Bill—I suspect probably in guidance—that would alleviate the problems they suffer in doing well by the disabled students they have to look after.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

We all want the same thing, and on Report I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say. I have current examples of young people who have gone to university, a young girl with cerebral palsy being one. My personal experience is that they have been very well supported by the universities, and all credit to them for giving that tremendous support. If we have established an education, health and care plan post-higher education, it just seems sensible to me, in my innocent way, if the requirements in that plan are carried through for the student when they go into higher education. I can appreciate that there might be slight delays because of the timescale of applying and getting to know and getting to grips with the university, but it seems common sense that if a young person has special needs, whatever they are, and they are contained in the plan, then the plan should be carried forward with them and continued into higher education. That seems simple and it would help the student a great deal.

Education Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Lord Storey

Monday 11th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, again the Government have pre-empted me by sending me this morning a very helpful e-mail describing their proposals for what are still called disciplinary proceedings, but I do not think that is the right phrase to use for these things. They are much more to do with performance, and we should try to get the word discipline out of this because it implies that the teacher has done something wrong rather than that the teacher is just in the wrong place. If it is a matter of a teacher having done something wrong, of course it is discipline, but this is about a performance review, and the consequences of a performance review.

It is crucial for children that they have good teachers. There are always inevitably going to be teachers in the system who are not up to scratch. The first response of the system ought to be to try to support them, to try to find ways of improving their performance, for their colleagues to help them, for them to go on courses if necessary and whatever needs to be done to encourage them back to a position where they are doing as well as their pupils deserve them to be doing. However, at present, certainly to judge from conversations with head teachers, they find the whole process of dealing with teachers who are not up to scratch so difficult and slow that many of them just give up and put up with substandard teaching. I do not think that that is a satisfactory position.

I do not know whether the e-mail sent to me was more widely circulated around the Committee. I think it perhaps should have been. I think that applies generally to messages going round in response to amendments. As I am sure my noble friend has seen, the interest in each question is pretty general around here, even if it has been proposed by just one or two of us. However, it seems to me that the Government are having a go at tackling this and are proposing quite interestingly simplified guidance that ought to enable this process to improve from both a teacher’s point of view and from the point of view of pupils and schools.

May I ask a few detailed questions? Is it possible under the new scheme for pupils to be involved in these proceedings? Pupils’ views on how good teachers are are often quite accurate. Is it envisaged that there will be some way of feeding that back into the system? I see that support is given to teachers throughout the process, which I thoroughly approve of. Is it proposed that once the point has been reached where it has been decided that a teacher should leave a school, there should be support for the teacher in making their next move, in whatever direction that is? It does not seem to me unreasonable that a teacher, having been supported all the way through the process, should not just be pushed off the edge at the end of it.

I note that a teacher who appeals successfully can be reinstated. That seems to me a good principle to apply to pupils too. I very much hope that, having set this new system in place, the Government will take an interest in how it is going and in a year or two will look to see how it needs adjusting and improving. I beg to move.

[Lord Storey]

My Lords, I have not seen the guidance, letter or e-mail, but I am grateful that this measure has been tabled because it concentrates our minds on a number of issues. A pupil, child or student cannot repeat a year, so if they have a teacher who is not up to the mark they have lost that year and that opportunity. Over several days of our discussion a constant theme has emerged that the most important thing in education is not the amount of equipment available or the quality of the buildings but rather the quality of the teachers and support staff. If you have quality teachers, you will have education at its best.

I do not have the relevant figures readily available but only a handful of teachers have been asked to leave over the past few years because of their inadequacies as teachers. I ask myself why that is the case. Then I reflect on how difficult it is to ask a teacher who is not performing well and is not good enough to leave the school. We have had debates about the quality of training and of the first year’s experience in school being the best that we can possibly provide. We have talked about the quality of support in school and in-service or CPD provision in schools. We have a performance management system in schools whereby every teacher is set performance targets every year. Those targets are monitored and evaluated and lessons are watched. If a teacher fails their performance management, it is a bureaucratic nightmare to try to do something about it. Frankly, does even the most experienced head teacher really want to go through that bureaucratic process which may involve teacher associations and will certainly involve a plethora of appeals and systems? They do not. The teacher concerned knows that he or she is not up to the job. Perhaps there could be a simplified system which would give them the support they need. I have seen teachers who, perhaps because of personal circumstances, have been struggling, have been given support and have come back up for the job again. I look forward to seeing a simplified way of dealing with this important issue.

Education Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Lord Storey

Thursday 30th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Storey]

I understand noble Lords’ concerns about crises, but I want to paint a different picture. In most situations, there will be teaching assistants in the classroom and learning mentors—a whole plethora of support staff who can support a particular situation. If there is a crisis, the best way to deal with it is not to provoke the situation further but to calm everything down. My concern is that if a teacher carries out this act by themselves and no one else is present, it could put them at risk. I can see all sorts of legal actions being taken whereby pupils, particularly at secondary school level, make allegations about what the teacher did to them. The police and law courts might become involved and it might become an absolute nightmare for schools and schooling, so I understand the concern about the crisis that might occur, but I am equally concerned about the well-being of the individual teacher and pupil. To put that teacher in that situation is potentially quite dangerous.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, when I think of my own childhood, members of the opposite sex were not the ones who caused the problems. Certainly these days when the staff of many schools are entirely female, you have to allow women to search men, and therefore men to search women, if those are the circumstances in which people find themselves. It must always be advisable to have a same-sex search, and it must almost always be advisable to have a witness, but imagine a situation in which a teacher is alone with a group of pupils and believes that one of the pupils has on them something that they could easily dispose of if they had the chance, whether it was drugs or a weapon. If they were out in the country, something could be dropped easily before they came back.

Searching consists of having the power to search, not actually saying, “Palmer, turn out your pockets”. The pupil would know that the member of staff had the power to search if they did not comply, and would therefore do as requested. This is a necessary part of the structure, but I am sure that no head teacher is going to advise any of their teachers to search when they do not have a witness, except in circumstances when nothing else is possible. I think that we can trust teachers and head teachers to use the clauses as they are in the Bill wisely.