National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 31st March 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Livermore]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 1B, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 1C.

1C: Because the Lords Amendment interferes with the public revenue, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, I will also speak to Motions B, C and D. On Motions A, B and C, the other place has disagreed with Amendments 1B, 5B and 8B as they would interfere with public revenue. The other place did not offer any further reason, trusting that this reason is deemed sufficient. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords are content not to insist on Amendments 1B, 5B and 8B.

I turn to Motion D. The other place has disagreed with Amendment 21B for the reason that the Government and the OBR have already outlined the impacts of this policy change. I have no doubt that the amendments tabled at previous stages of the Bill by the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, were well intentioned, and I am grateful to them for ensuring that these important matters have been properly addressed during our debates.

More broadly, I assure all noble Lords that giving careful consideration to and properly assessing the impact of the Bill is a priority for this Government. I commit on behalf of the Government to continually monitoring and assessing the impacts and effects of these policies.

Specifically with regard to special educational needs and disability, which has been the subject of several such amendments, the Government recognise the challenges within the SEND system, where outcomes for children and young people are often poor. The Government understand that change is urgently needed and we are committed to delivering long-term, sustainable change.

On the issue of SEN transport, while the Government do not expect the changes to national insurance to have a significant impact on home-to-school travel for children with SEND, I can commit that all these issues will be fully considered as part of the forthcoming spending review. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will be content not to insist on Amendment 21B. I beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I simply thank the Minister and, again, all who have been involved in the passage of this difficult Bill, especially those who have supported me and my noble friend Lord Altrincham. We have had seven days of debate in the House and nine successful votes, in collaboration with other Benches. That demonstrated the serious concerns about this Bill, right across the House.

There is a strong feeling, echoed externally in our hospices, in hospitality, on the high street and in many other places, that the Bill is not the best way to meet the challenges that the country faces, and that it will endanger the growth we need so badly. However, this is a House of scrutiny, and the other place has taken a different view. As a responsible Opposition, we will not seek to defeat this Bill, no matter how deeply we feel about it. His Majesty’s Government must be able to set their tax policy, and of course we respect that.

I should add that I am grateful to the Minister for his closing words, especially in relation to SEND transport, and for his undertaking to monitor—as I think he said—the impacts and effect of the Bill going forward. We will hold him to that. Moreover, he knows that I and one or two others will continue to encourage the Treasury to learn from all of this and experiment with fuller sectoral assessments in the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Londesborough (CB)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for his comments. It is with regret that I will neither insist on my Amendment 8B nor plan to add any further amendments. The other place has played its financial privilege card for the second time, even though this amendment had been radically and pragmatically modified to simply provide the Treasury with the option of a statutory instrument to reverse the big drop in the NICs thresholds for small businesses. It will discover this in the economic damage that this Bill will potentially do to employment and growth.

In the meantime, I simply thank noble Lords—almost 300 of them—for voting for my amendments. I especially thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Neville-Rolfe, for their unflagging and invaluable support. I thank the Minister for his patience and for at least listening; I appreciate that he had little or perhaps no room for manoeuvre. I support the Government wholeheartedly on their overriding mission of economic growth, but I remain baffled, bemused and bewildered by their policies.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken today and all noble Lords who have taken part in all stages of this Bill for their careful scrutiny; I thank them for their thoughtful contributions. I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lady Kramer, specifically for indicating that they will not be insisting on their amendments today.

As I have set out, the other place has disagreed with Lords Amendments 1B, 5B and 8B, as they interfere with public revenue. They did not offer any further reason, trusting that this reason is deemed sufficient. The other place also disagreed with Amendment 21B for the reasons I have set out. On this basis, I hope noble Lords are content not to insist on these amendments.

Motion A agreed.

Moved by

[Lord Livermore]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 5B, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 5C.

5C: Because the Lords Amendment interferes with the public revenue, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient.

Moved by

[Lord Livermore]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 8B, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 8C.

8C: Because the Lords Amendment interferes with the public revenue, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient.

Moved by

[Lord Livermore]

That this House do not insist on its Amendment 21B, to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reason 21C.

21C: Because information has already been published about these matters and a further review is not necessary.