Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I am just about to conclude.

Global Witness, for example, recently launched a “Brazil Big Beef Watch” Twitter bot to show how simple and effective supply-chain traceability can be. Therefore, due diligence requirements are not an onerous ask and are long overdue. It is deplorable that indigenous people are on the front line in defending against deforestation. Some 40 people per week are killed in the process. This must stop. I think I speak for our Benches when I say that should the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, seek the opinion of the House on her amendment—we hope that she will—we will give it our wholehearted support.

Amendments 93 and 113 on fiduciary duty have been covered extensively by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Drake, and by other noble Lords across the House, so I need say very little other than that we are in full support of them.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating if somewhat disheartening debate, and I have learned much listening to the contributions from noble Lords on all sides of the House.

We welcome the tabling of government Amendment 4, which brings forward new provisions relating to sustainability disclosure requirements, but we agree with the views expressed across the House, particularly as set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, arguing that the Bill simply does not go far enough in supporting the country’s green ambitions.

We support many of the amendments in principle but particularly Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and Amendment 91 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, the latter having been signed by my noble friend Lady Chapman.

The financial services sector touches many more aspects of our lives then we may sometimes realise, with firms’ investment decisions having a direct impact on virtually all sectors of the economy. This activity can, and often does, do much that is good. For example, if we are to secure the green jobs of the future, businesses will need investment. But, as we see in some cases, such as investment activity that leads to deforestation, there can be severe negative environmental impacts. In a recent poll cited by Global Witness, 77% of UK savers said they would be unhappy to discover that their pension was funding deforestation and habitat loss, with 14 million people estimated to switch pension provider if they made such a discovery. However, as Amendment 7 highlights, there is currently no way for the public, nor indeed the Government, to tell if their money is invested in that way, and therefore no way for consumers to exercise choice. That surely cannot be right.

Amendment 91 would implement recommendations from the Government’s own Global Resource Initiative taskforce in relation to deforestation, a practice which causes significant harm to global climate ambitions, as well as to indigenous peoples who are evicted from their ancestral homes. We are told by the Government that they are serious about achieving net zero and protecting nature, yet, at present, the net-zero regulatory principle still fails to mention nature, which is what Amendment 15 would correct. Indeed, nature is not even mentioned in the Bill. As the WWF rightly points out, by excluding nature from this key financial services legislation, the UK will fail to secure opportunities that could make the UK a leading green finance centre, while exposing the country to nature-related risks.

We should also give serious weight to the intervention of Professor Sir Partha Dasgupta, who led the Government’s review of the economics of biodiversity, when he urges the Government to support the amendment. He says:

“We need to empower those in charge of regulating our financial system to support the sector to arrive at a nature-positive destination by recognising the value of natural capital and the significant social and economic benefits restoring nature presents”.


We are losing nature at an alarming rate, and these issues are only going to become more urgent. We have missed opportunities to act in the past, and we cannot continue to make the same mistakes. We therefore urge the Government to think again on these important areas, but if they are not willing to do so, we will support the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Boycott, should they choose to push their amendments to a vote.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, let me first take Amendment 15, from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. I reassure noble Lords that the regulators already consider issues related to sustainability, and specifically nature, as part of their work under their existing objectives. For example, the Government and the regulators are active participants in the work of the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosure, which we have heard about, which helps organisations to report and act on evolving nature-related risks; and the Bank of England is a key member of the Network for Greening the Financial System, which recently launched a task force on nature-related risks.

The noble Baroness listed the work that is happening and the various commitments, and I interpret that to mean that the lack of the reference to nature in the framework does not equal a lack of action by either the Government or the regulators. I understand the desire of noble Lords to see that reflected in the framework in the Bill. However, further work needs to take place to better understand the interaction between nature targets and the work of the financial services regulators when including it in regulation, and the conclusions of that work are not yet clear. Moreover, equivalent targets to those in the Environment Act for England and Wales in 2021 do not yet exist in the other devolved Administrations, so we remain of the view that it would not be appropriate to place a requirement within the FSMA regulatory principles without the clarity I spoke about, or to impose requirements that link to targets that do not yet exist; so unfortunately, the Government are unable to support the amendment.

Turning to Amendment 91 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, the Government are committed to working with UK financial institutions to further tackle deforestation-linked finance. As set out in the updated green finance strategy, we will begin this work with a series of government-convened round tables this year, and I am keen to work with noble Lords on this process.

As we discussed in Committee, the amendment we are considering today would involve imposing requirements on all regulated financial services firms, obliging them to undertake due diligence on practically all their client firms and their clients’ supply chains. In practice, this would amount to UK banks being required to check most of the world’s major companies and their supply chains for links to illegal deforestation, and stopping any finance to them until those companies can provide the data needed to do so. This is while the rest of the world’s banks carry on financing this activity with no global standard on deforestation in place.

Global due diligence is not something that can be legislated for by Parliament and the UK financial sector alone. In fact, trying to do so may make this problem harder to solve. Imposing this data requirement on UK financial firms alone where such data is lacking globally could lead to one of two things: firms trying to satisfy the requirement but failing due to a lack of data, leading to misreporting and misallocations of capital; or keeping that business outside the UK, with no chance of securing the type of environmental change we want and that is the aim of the amendment.

The Government therefore want to find a workable solution, and we are pursuing a number of different lines of action to do so, in addition to the commitment we made to work with UK financial institutions in the green finance strategy. First, we are directly addressing deforestation in situ by our partnerships approach. The Government launched the forest and climate leaders’ partnership at COP 27, and also fund the partnership for forests, which has channelled more than £1 billion of private investment into forests and sustainable land use, and brought more than 4 million hectares of critical landscapes under sustainable land use.

Secondly, the Government are working to address due diligence for illegal deforestation using the Environment Act. The most relevant UK businesses that use forest-risk commodities or products derived from them will be required to ensure those products are produced in compliance with relevant local laws. Thirdly, the Government are supporting the development of a coherent international approach on disclosure and management of nature-related risks and impact.

Since our debate in Committee, the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosure has published its latest draft framework. This now includes recommended metrics and associated governance strategies for businesses to understand and mitigate deforestation in areas of direct or indirect operational control. We committed in the green finance strategy to explore how the final TNFD framework should be incorporated into UK policy and legislative architecture, and we will start this work later this year, once the final framework is published.

I personally made the case to the International Sustainability Standards Board, while at COP 15 in Montreal, that such standards should be considered for integration into its work. If that happens, global standards are genuinely within reach. I acknowledge that TNFD or any subsequent global standards do not prohibit the financing of deforestation in itself but, as a disclosure framework, it is the bedrock for action, both by incentivising firms to take action on the risks that they identify and allowing the Government to consider taking further regulatory action after the establishment of such a disclosure framework. I hope, therefore, that I have explained why the Government cannot accept the amendments, but have also demonstrated that effective action is under way to address noble Lords’ concerns in these areas.

Turning to Amendments 93 and 113, also from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, in the updated green finance strategy, the Government have already recognised that decisions about investing in the context of systemic risks such as climate change and biodiversity loss are complicated, in particular for pension funds. The Law Commission’s 2014 report suggested that fiduciary duties mean that non-financial factors can be considered as part of investment decisions if trustees have good reasons to think their members share their concerns and if such decisions do not involve a risk of significant financial detriment to the fund.

However, the Government recognise that trustees would like further information and clarity on their fiduciary duties in the context of the transition to net zero, and that is why we are taking steps to ensure that such clarity is forthcoming. Later this year, DWP will examine how closely its stewardship guidance is being followed, including whether incorrect interpretations of fiduciary duties are playing a role in this area. The financial markets and law committee, which includes representatives from both DWP and the Treasury, is working to consider issues around fiduciary duties and sustainability and whether further action or clarity is needed.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Financial regulation ultimately requires robust rules, made in the long-term public interest. The public interest does not always align with the immediate interests of financial institutions. Tasking oversight bodies with promoting the industry they regulate fundamentally compromises their work. It is just the way the system works, and however much you may wish that the world was different, experience over many years demonstrates that that is the inevitable result of tasking the regulator with the job of promoting what they are meant to be regulating.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we do not support this group of amendments. We strongly support the inclusion in this Bill of the new secondary objective for the regulators on international competitiveness and economic growth. Its position as secondary in the hierarchy of regulators’ objectives is of course key. As a secondary objective, economic growth and international competitiveness will remain subordinate to the regulators’ primary objectives of preserving financial stability and protecting consumers. The UK’s reputation and success as a leading international financial centre depend on high standards of regulation, and a stable and independent regulatory regime. These high regulatory standards are a key strength of the UK system and its global competitiveness, so we would not support any moves towards a regulatory race to the bottom. That would negatively impact international confidence in the UK, making the UK less attractive to international businesses and investment.

The UK’s financial services industry plays a vital role in boosting economic growth and delivering skilled jobs in every part of the UK. Almost 2.5 million people are employed in financial services, with two-thirds of those jobs based outside London, and the sector contributes more than £170 billion a year to GDP—8.3% of all economic output.

The City of London is one of only two global financial capitals and is at the very heart of the international monetary system. This is an enviable position, and it is vital that we support the sector across the UK to retain this competitiveness on the world stage post Brexit so that the UK can continue to be one of the world’s premier global financial centres. It is therefore crucial that the UK’s regulatory framework plays its part in supporting this positive contribution to the UK economy and society. To do this, it must enhance competitiveness and support the industry in trading with the world, including in new markets. It must attract investment into the UK and promote innovation and consumer choice.

A secondary growth and international competitiveness objective is a simple and internationally proven way to achieve this, helping to ensure that the UK remains a leading global financial centre by empowering regulators to make the UK a better place to do business and ensuring a more attractive market for international providers and consumers of financial services. The UK is, of course, in competition with other international financial centres, and many of them, including Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, the United States and the European Union, have introduced a similar objective, which they balance against financial stability and consumer protection.

In future groups we will come to topics such as investment in high-growth firms, but it is precisely by having this secondary objective on competitiveness and growth that we will create an ecosystem that supports investment in new technologies, provides much-needed economic growth and secures new jobs.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the new secondary growth and competitiveness objectives in the Bill will ensure that the regulators can act to facilitate medium to long-term growth and competitiveness for the first time, but a focus on competitiveness and long-term growth is not new. When the UK was part of the European Union and financial services legislation was negotiated in Brussels, UK Ministers went to great efforts to ensure that EU regulations appropriately considered the impact that regulation could have on economic growth and on the competitiveness of our financial services sector.

Now that we have left the EU, and as the regulators take on responsibility for setting new rules as we repeal retained EU law, it is right that their objectives reflect the financial services sector’s critical role in supporting the wider economy. We must ensure that growth and competitiveness can continue to be properly considered within a robust regulatory framework. As the noble Lord opposite said, a secondary competitiveness objective strikes the right balance. It ensures that the regulators have due regard to growth and competitiveness while maintaining their primary focus on their existing objectives. That is why the Government strongly reject Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, which seeks to remove the secondary objectives from the Bill.

Turning to Amendment 9 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, the Government agree that the UK financial services sector is not just an industry in its own right but an engine of growth for the wider economy. The current drafting of the Bill seeks to reflect that but also recognises that the scope of the regulators’ responsibilities relates to the markets they regulate—the financial services sector—so it is growth of the wider economy and of the financial services sector, but not at the expense of the wider economy. I hope I can reassure her on that point.

On Amendment 115, also from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, as noble Lords know, the Bill repeals retained EU law in financial services, including the MiFID framework. Detailed firm-facing requirements, such as those that this amendment seeks to amend, are likely to become the responsibility of the FCA. As such, it will be for the FCA to determine whether such rules are appropriate. When doing so, the FCA will have to consider whether rules are in line with its statutory objectives, including the new secondary growth and competitiveness objective.

Parliament will be able to scrutinise any rules that the regulators make, including pressing them on the effectiveness of their rules, and how they deliver against their objectives. Industry will also be able to make representations to the regulators where they feel that their rules are not having their intended effect or are placing disproportionate burdens on firms. I hope the noble Baroness is therefore reassured that the appropriate mechanisms are in place for considering the issues that she has raised via that amendment.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I realise that we are on Report, but I should have declared my interest as chairman of Secure Trust Bank. I understand that it is not enough to have done so in Committee; it needs to be done at each stage.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be very brief so as not to detain the House further. Much of the substance of these issues was debated in the previous group on Tuesday evening, when I said that we strongly support the inclusion in the Bill of the new secondary objective for the regulators of international competitiveness and economic growth.

While the introduction of this secondary objective is a positive step, it is also important to ensure that it is meaningfully considered in the regulators’ decision-making. One of the main ways of doing this is by introducing some proven accountability measures to require the regulators to report on their performance against the objective. We therefore welcome the government amendments in this group, which will provide for initial reports on implementation of the competitiveness and growth objective, as well as other provisions that seek to improve regulatory accountability.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for that constructive debate and I seek to engage only with the points that have been raised.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that high regulatory standards are a key to London’s and the UK’s competitiveness as a financial centre. That is why the growth and competitiveness objective is a secondary objective to the primary objectives already in existence. However, high regulatory standards are not the only contributor to the growth and competitiveness of our economy or the sector. The new secondary objective, therefore, has an important role to play.

To address specifically the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on day one of Report—the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, reflected on that again today—that the government amendments in this area somehow seek to elevate the secondary objective from its position within the hierarchy, that is not the case. These amendments reflect the fact that they are new objectives for the regulators and it is right that we have a focus on new objectives being added through the Bill to understand how they are being embedded into the operation of the regulators.

The noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Davies of Brixton, asked how the reporting will take into account the fact that the objectives are secondary and how they will impact on the primary objectives. It is in the structure of the objectives that the growth and competitiveness objective can be delivered only in the context of achieving the primary objectives. That is built into the system. Each year, in addition to these two reports provided for in our amendment, there will be the annual report from the regulators looking at their delivery across all their objectives.

Several noble Lords asked whether having a report on this specific objective for just two years was the right approach. We think it strikes the balance between reflecting the new nature of these objectives and, over time, integrating them into the working of the regulators and reporting them in future annual reports. However, I point out to noble Lords that the Government have the power to specify certain matters to be addressed in those annual reports if we think it necessary in future. Under Clause 37, we also have the power to require further reporting on certain matters, so if the Government felt that further focus on the embedding of these new objectives was needed, there are powers in the Bill that would allow that to be drawn out.

My noble friends Lord Trenchard and Lord Ashcombe, and others, raised concerns about the need for specific metrics for reporting the regulators’ delivery against their objectives, as set out in my noble friend’s amendment. As noble Lords recognise, that is exactly the purpose of the Government’s current call for proposals. We do not think it is right to have the metrics in the Bill, because that would hinder the objectives that my noble friends are talking about, in terms of having the best possible set of metrics that can be adapted and updated to ensure that Parliament, industry and the Government get the information that they need on the regulators’ performance.

My noble friends Lord Holmes and Lord Ashcombe also drew attention to Amendment 92 in this group. I am aware that the speed and effectiveness with which the regulators process applications for authorisation remains an area of concern for both Parliament and industry, and the Government share those concerns. In December, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury wrote to the CEOs of the PRA and the FCA, setting out the importance of ensuring that the UK has world-leading levels of regulatory operational effectiveness. Publishing more and better data detailing the FCA and PRA’s performance is critical to meeting these aims. That is why, in their reply to the Economic Secretary’s letter, both CEOs committed to publishing more detailed performance data in relation to authorisation processes on a quarterly basis.

On 19 May, both the FCA and the PRA published their first set of enhanced quarterly metrics relating to their authorisations performance, including the average time taken to process applications. The reports demonstrate that the regulators, particularly the FCA, are making progress towards meeting service-level targets, while recognising that there are further improvements to be made on some measures. The Government will continue to monitor this data to assess performance and discuss continuing efforts to improve operational efficiency with the regulators.

I am glad to have heard the general support for the Government’s amendments in this group. As my noble friend Lord Holmes said, we drew heavy inspiration from his contributions in Committee, and those of other noble Lords.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

Although I very much liked the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, of an office for financial regulatory accountability, in effect a resource such as that would need to sit underneath a committee, or committees, in order to make sure that they have the proper tools and information. I hope the Government will realise that what they have done is a step forward but that they will have to complete the process. We still have a deficit in scrutiny and accountability, and it is a deficit that matters.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, I join the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on persuading the Government to adopt his amendments, albeit in a slightly different form. Given the amount of regulation coming forward in the months and years ahead, and with the expertise that your Lordships’ House can offer, it was crucial that the Government extended the Commons-only provisions to include a relevant Lords committee, and we very much welcome these government amendments.

We are also pleased that the Minister included the option of a Joint Committee, as this future-proofs the legislation in the event that colleagues in both Houses feel—as does my noble friend Lord Eatwell—that such a body would provide a better form of scrutiny of the regulator’s work. As my noble friend Lady Chapman mentioned in a previous group, and as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, stressed further, there are still significant outstanding questions about the level of staff resource and expertise that relevant parliamentary committees will be able to draw on. Although these questions cannot be adequately addressed through the Bill, these concessions will at least safeguard the role of your Lordships’ House and enable conversations on resourcing to now proceed.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group focus on further formalising the role of parliamentary scrutiny of the regulators. The Government agree with noble Lords that effective parliamentary scrutiny, in particular through parliamentary committees, has a critical role to play in improving the quality of regulation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said, and the performance of the regulators overall.

The Bill, through Clauses 36 and 47 and Schedule 7, seeks to ensure that the Treasury Select Committee has the information it needs to fulfil its role, by requiring the regulator to notify the TSC when publishing any relevant consultations. However, the Government have listened to the case made by noble Lords that the important role of this House was not adequately reflected by that approach. We have therefore tabled a series of amendments which will require the regulators to also notify the relevant Lords committee when they publish a consultation. These amendments will ensure parity between arrangements for the Commons and the Lords. They also provide that, if a Joint Committee is set up in future, the regulators will be required to notify it in the same way.

I am glad that my noble friend Lord Forsyth feels that these amendments fulfil the aims of his own; that is just as well, as his amendments in Committee and on Report formed the basis for the Government’s approach—that is no coincidence. I am grateful to him for the work that he has put in on this issue and for the time that he has taken to discuss these matters with the Government.

I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Bridges and the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for their engagement as the chairs of the current committees in this House that look at the work of the financial services regulators. When I spoke with them, they explained how the EAC and the IRC currently split some responsibility for financial services policy, an example of which was their recent work on LDI, where the EAC focused on the work of the Bank of England and the PRA and the IRC focused on that of the FCA. The Government’s amendments would allow for the two committees to continue with that approach if they wished to do so and for a different Lords committee to receive notifications of consultations from the FCA and the PRA. That structure would be for Parliament to decide.

I shall now pick up on the concern from noble Lords about having multiple committees looking at the same issues or the work of the same regulators. As I have said, the structure is a matter for Parliament, but currently we have the TSC in the Commons, and the Economic Affairs and the Industry and Regulators Committees in the Lords, which at the moment look at various aspects of the regulators’ work without duplicating each other or creating unnecessary burdens. Given the scale of powers for the regulators being established in this Bill, there will be more than sufficient work to go round different committees, and they have already proven themselves able to co-ordinate their work so that it is not duplicative.

We have heard, given the scale of the task before us, that there is concern about the resource made available to those committees. Committee structures and their resourcing will remain a matter for Parliament to decide and I have noted that noble Lords agree that that is the right approach. However, the Government recognise that the new model for financial services regulation will require a step change in this House’s scrutiny of the regulators and agree there must be suitable resource in place to support this. The Government will work with the usual channels and the House authorities in the appropriate way.

The Government have also heard concerns about the feedback loop when Parliament engages with regulatory proposals. There can often be a significant period of time between an initial consultation and the Bill’s existing provisions regarding the regulators’ engagement with parliamentary committees, and final rules being published. In particular, the Government recognise amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, in Grand Committee, seeking to require the regulators to explain how parliamentary recommendations have been considered. The Government have therefore tabled Amendments 61 to 63, which require the regulators, when publishing their final rules, to explain how they have considered representations from parliamentary committees. This will ensure that the regulators provide a public explanation of how the views of parliamentary committees have been considered at the point when rules are made. This complements the existing requirement in Clauses 36 and 47, and Schedule 7, for the regulators to respond in writing to the chairs of committees that have made representations. This will ensure not only that regulators appropriately consider Parliament’s representations but that they set out publicly how they have done so.

The debates so far have shown that there is no single silver bullet to solve the problem of accountability. However, the Government are committed to creating an effective, overarching ecosystem in which the various different actors all play their roles in holding the independent regulators to account, ensuring high-quality financial services regulation in the UK. I am therefore grateful that my noble friend Lord Forsyth has said that he will withdraw his amendments, and I intend to move the Government’s amendments, based on those amendments, when they are reached.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Lord Livermore Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 13th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment has to be seen in the context of the statement by the Payment Systems Regulator on 7 June, which was only a few days ago. It seems to me that that is the key starting point. I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench that that statement is enormously welcome. It states clearly that:

“For the first time, our new reimbursement requirement will introduce consistent minimum standards to reimburse victims of APP fraud”.


I do not want to detain the House by going through some of the detail of that because that is not what we are doing here today, but it seems to me that that is a significant step forward.

Secondly the PSR says quite clearly:

“We are increasing protections within Faster Payments”,


and that is also a key issue. There is a timeline in the statement which states that there will be consultation on:

“The allowable claim excess that Payment Service Providers can charge”.


That is to be done in August and the whole lot will be finished by October. I wish it were to be done a little quicker, but it seems an excellent start.

The only part of the amendment which I think is extremely valuable is the one-year report. Frankly, with the volume of illegal activity that there is at the moment, if it were me—and I was the marketing director at a couple of the companies I used to work for—I would not wait a year; I would like to see what happens within the first six months of the new regime being in place. Later on, you can decide if there is some consistent reason that you move to a six-month situation.

Finally, I would like to know exactly what the starting point was before the new regulations came in. At the moment, I do not know that we have any official statistics. We may do and, if so, it would be very helpful to the House to know, not necessarily at this moment but in the near future, the starting point for the number of these terrible situations that people are being faced with today.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, the Payment Systems Regulator is now putting in place requirements to ensure more consumers will receive a refund if they fall victim to authorised push payment scams. This is very welcome. Many banks have already taken steps to make customers aware of the risk of scams, but the sophisticated nature of many such scams means there is a need for even stronger efforts to prevent fraud occurring in the first place. Not all of the detail is yet settled, with consultation on key aspects of the new scheme to follow later in the year, but we hope the Minister can give an indication of the levels of protection likely to be offered.

We welcome the tabling of Amendment 94 by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which we understand to be a probing text. As the new system beds in, it will be vital for banks and other financial institutions to collect data and share that with the regulator, in order to inform future changes to guidance and regulation. The amendment also proposes public reporting of data to enable consumers to see which institutions have a good or bad track record. This is an interesting idea and we look forward to hearing the Minister’s response on this specific point.

While APP scams fall within the financial services realm, anti-fraud initiatives cut across departments and legislation. That is why one of our priorities for the Online Safety Bill is to ensure robust media literacy provisions, so internet users are able to better identify which articles, websites or emails are legitimate. With a significant amount of financial fraud taking place online but with the limited scope of that Bill, we hope the Minister and her department will engage with the Online Safety Bill as it approaches Report stage. Scams cause a significant amount of emotional distress, as well as coming with financial costs, so we hope that the Government and the regulators will do everything possible to keep ahead of the curve.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government and the Payment Systems Regulator recognise the importance of regular, robust data collection. This is crucial for monitoring the effectiveness of the reimbursement requirement and ensuring that firms are held accountable. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, for his considered engagement on this issue. I reassure noble Lords that the PSR has committed to half-yearly publication of data on authorised push payment scam rates and on the proportion of victims who are not fully reimbursed.

I can tell my noble friend Lord Naseby that a voluntary system is already in place and the PSR has already begun collecting data from the 14 largest banking and payment groups. The first round of transparency data is due for publication in October this year. The data that the PSR will publish includes the proportion of scam victims who are left out of pocket, fraud rates where the bank has sent customers’ money to a scammer, and fraud rates where the bank has hosted a scammer’s account. That means that, from October this year, the PSR will publish data for total fraud rates, both for sending money and receiving fraudulent funds, and reimbursement rates, on a twice-yearly basis for the 14 largest banking groups. This so-called league table will provide customers with the information they need to consider the relative performance of different banking groups on these metrics, and to factor that into their banking decisions.

Further to this data, once the reimbursement requirement is in place the PSR will use a range of metrics to monitor its effectiveness on an ongoing basis. These include the length of reimbursement investigations, the speed of reimbursements, the value of repatriated funds, the treatment of and reimbursement levels among vulnerable customers, and the number and value of APP scams. Data on appeals will be captured and reported by the Financial Ombudsman Service separately.

More broadly, the PSR will publish a full post-implementation review of the reimbursement requirement introduced by this Bill within two years of implementation. The review will assess the overall impact of the PSR’s measures for improving consumer outcomes. That does not mean it will not also consider the effectiveness of this measure on an ongoing basis. Indeed, more widely, the PSR will consider risks across different payment systems and, where necessary, address them with future action. This includes a commitment to work with the Bank of England to introduce similar reimbursement protections for CHAPS payments, and with the FCA in relation to on-us payments.

The PSR has been working closely with industry to develop effective data collection and reporting processes for its work on fraud. While the Government recognise the intention behind the noble Lord’s amendment, they do not consider it necessary or appropriate to prescribe specific metrics to be collected in primary legislation. I hope that, given the reassurance I have been able to provide today, he would agree with that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Livermore, spoke about the wider impacts of fraud and the duties that go beyond financial services companies or payment system providers in addressing those risks of fraud. That is being looked at through both the Government’s counter-fraud strategy and other Bills. He mentioned the Online Safety Bill. I disagree with his assessment of the measures in there. The measures that we have to tackle fraud in that Bill are a significant step-change in what we expect of companies in this space, and I think they will make a real difference. We are committed to working across all sectors to look at what more we could do in this space once we have implemented those measures and see how effective they are. I hope noble Lords are reassured by our commitments more broadly on this issue, and specifically by the fact that the PSR will be publishing data in this space once we have implemented the measures in the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I had the privilege of serving on the Economic Affairs Committee, with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, as chair, when it produced the report. Your Lordships will gather that my views on whether we adopt a digital currency are distinctive somewhat from others who have spoken today. It is not that I am some enthusiast for it; I recognise all the issues and disadvantages that have been named today, particularly financial stability and privacy. However, 18 countries will be adopting a central bank digital currency this year—including China, initially for its domestic market. It has been piloting it in 12 cities, but eventually it will become an offering that it takes to the many other countries where it expects to exercise influence, in both Asia and Africa.

I am afraid that we are facing potentially a King Canute situation: we may not particularly want such a currency but might simply have to accept that to remain in the forefront and in play within financial services and as a major exporter and participant in global trade, we may have no choice but to go down this route. But I absolutely share with every other speaker the view that this should be determined by Parliament in primary legislation. The issues are sufficiently fundamental and far-reaching. They carry risk, and they require judgment and perspective—and it is in debates in the other place and here that that can happen.

It seems to me that something so fundamental as currency surely is the responsibility of a democratic Parliament. It cannot be transferred, in effect, to either the Treasury to run through an SI, or to the regulators to not even bother with an SI but largely to put it in place through various regulatory changes. So, here we have absolute common ground; this should be on the face of the Bill. I am concerned that this may be the last piece of legislation coming forward where we have the opportunity to put it in the Bill. There might be a further opportunity in a year’s time, but it depends on the speed of change that we experience.

Guarantees from the Government would be good. I am glad that a letter has been written to Harriett Baldwin and the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, but we need something that recognises the significance and importance of doing this through primary legislation.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, which has enabled this short and informative debate on the process for establishing a central bank digital currency. As technology develops and people’s habits change, it is vital that we keep pace. Therefore, the principle of a digital pound has much to commend it, although the arguments, implications and details clearly need to be properly worked through. The introduction of a digital pound would represent a significant step, and it is therefore right for the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Bridges, to ask about the underlying processes, though it is a novel experience for the two noble Lords to be asking for commitments from this side of the House.

We very much welcome the clarification offered by the Chancellor in his letter to the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, and the Economic Affairs Committee that there would be primary legislation before a digital pound could be launched. We agree that this is an important safeguard.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Bridges for their leadership in the House on this important topic. I do not intend to relitigate the debates around the question of a central bank digital currency; I was one of the five or so noble Lords who debated the Economic Affairs Committee report in February, and I enjoyed it very much.

As we set out then and in Grand Committee, the Government have not yet made a decision on whether the digital pound should be introduced, and that remains the case. But we also take the view that a digital pound may be needed in the future, so further preparatory work is justified. Therefore, the Treasury and the Bank of England issued a joint consultation on a potential digital pound on 7 February. As that consultation paper makes clear, the legal basis for a digital pound will be determined alongside the consideration of its design.

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This amendment, requiring that any changes in the ring-fencing system should be a matter of parliamentary discussion, seems to me to place the importance of the ring-fence and the accountability of the regulatory management of the ring-fence exactly where they should be, which is in Parliament.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we fully support the steps taken by the Treasury, the Bank and the regulators in relation to Silicon Valley Bank UK. The system worked at pace to ensure SVB UK could continue its operations. However, while we endorse the outcomes, legitimate questions have been asked about the ring-fencing exemption granted to HSBC and the potential long-term implications.

The arguments have been excellently outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and my noble friend Lord Eatwell, and I will not repeat them now. The financial system has experienced much volatility in recent months, so preventing major changes to ring- fencing being made by secondary legislation is a sensible step and one that we believe the Commons ought to consider before this Bill goes on to the statute book.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, it has been over 10 years since the Independent Commission on Banking recommended important structural changes, including the introduction of ring-fencing for the largest UK banks, and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards recommended the introduction of the senior managers and certification regime, or SMCR, to embed a culture of greater accountability and personal responsibility in banking. I pay tribute to the important work of these commissions and their lasting legacy in improving the safety and soundness of the UK’s financial system. Amendment 106 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, covers the ring-fencing and SMCR reforms.

In response to my noble friend Lord Trenchard, the legislation that introduced the ring-fencing regime required the Treasury to appoint an independent panel to review the regime after it had been in operation for two years. That independent review was chaired by Sir Keith Skeoch and concluded in March 2022. The review noted that the financial regulatory landscape has changed significantly since the last financial crisis. UK banks are much better capitalised and a bank resolution regime has been introduced to ensure that bank failures can in future be managed in an orderly way, minimising risks to depositors and public funds.

In the light of these considerations, the independent review concluded that changes could be made in the short term to improve the functionality of the ring-fencing regime while maintaining financial stability safeguards. In December, as part of the Edinburgh reforms, the Chancellor announced a series of changes to the ring-fencing regime that broadly follow the recommendations made by the independent review. The Treasury will consult later this year on those near-term reforms. The panel also recommended that, over the longer term, the Government should review the practicalities of aligning the ring-fencing and resolution regimes. In response, the Government published a call for evidence in March. This closed at the beginning of May and the Government are in the process of considering responses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and other noble Lords referenced the resolution of Silicon Valley Bank UK, which was sold to HSBC on Monday 13 March. The Government and the Bank of England acted swiftly to facilitate the sale of SVB UK to HSBC after determining that action was necessary to protect depositors and taxpayers and to ensure that the UK’s world-leading tech sector could continue to thrive. To facilitate the sale, the Government made modifications to the ring-fencing regime that apply to HSBC only in relation to its acquisition of SVB UK.

It is critical that the Government have the necessary powers to act decisively to protect financial stability, depositors and taxpayers. The power under the Banking Act 2009 enables the Treasury to amend the law in resolution scenarios. Parliament gave the Treasury this power recognising the exceptional circumstances that can arise. However, I say to the noble Baroness that the changes made to the ring-fencing requirements are specifically in relation to the acquisition of SVB UK and should not be viewed as an indication of the future direction of government policy on ring-fencing. The Chancellor has been clear that, in taking any reforms forward, the Government will learn lessons from the crisis and will not undermine financial stability.

The core features of ring-fencing are set out in primary legislation, which generally may be amended only by primary legislation, so the Government are already constrained in one of the ways that this amendment seeks to ensure. In passing that legislation, Parliament delegated certain detailed elements of the regime to the Government to deliver through secondary legislation, given its technical nature and to allow it to evolve over time, where appropriate. Parliament also included clear statutory tests and objectives within the framework, which the Treasury and the PRA must satisfy when making changes to the regime. These statutory tests continue to reflect the underlying objectives and purposes of the regime. The Government are of the view that they remain appropriate and that no further constraints are necessary.

Turning to the SMCR, I can confirm to the House once more that the framework of the SMCR is set out in primary legislation, so it is already the case that significant amendments can be made only via primary legislation.

Let me also reassure the House that the Government continue to recognise the contribution of the SMCR in helping to drive improvements in culture and standards. The principles of accountability, clarity and senior responsibility that are emphasised by the PCBS report were reflected in the SMCR. We should take confidence from the findings of separate reports by UK Finance and the PRA, which both show that these principles are now more widely embedded in financial services than before the introduction of the regime.

The Economic Secretary made it clear to the Treasury Select Committee on 10 January that the purpose of the review was to seek views on the most effective ways in which the regime can deliver its core objectives. It is important to review significant regulation from time to time to ensure that rules remain relevant, effective in meeting their aims and proportionate to those aims. The Government are grateful to those who have submitted responses to the SMCR call for evidence. This information will help the Government, alongside the regulators, build a proper evidence base for identifying what, if any, reforms to the regime should be taken forward.

I hope that I have sufficiently reassured noble Lords that the Government remain committed to high standards of regulation, and to the important reforms introduced following the global financial crisis. Therefore, I ask the noble Lady, Baroness Kramer, to withdraw her amendment.