Neighbourhood Planning Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 6th February 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I have Amendment 38 in this string of amendments. With one in six homes at risk at present, it is quite clear that homes need to be built which protect residents from increasing flood risk. I have put down this amendment because I noted that the Government, both on Report and in Committee in the Commons, were remarkably un-keen to delete this clause, so my thinking is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If one feels as I do about the issue of flood risk, there is perhaps the potential for exemptions. I have tabled this amendment because all the evidence from around the UK shows that we need drainage standards and designs for drainage to be agreed up front. If they are not, it is not good for the housebuilder or the local authority, and it is certainly not good for the home owner.

In Scotland there is a legal requirement to have sustainable drainage on any development, but developers are not obliged to engage with Scottish Water on the design and building up front. This results in housebuilders producing their own designs, which Scottish Water then has issues with. The result is that 90% of these drainage systems are not adopted by Scottish Water. In Wales, however, developers have to have an agreement with the sewerage undertakers on a specific design before they start on-site. This system works and does not hold up developments. This shows that the designs for sewerage and sustainable drainage need to be settled at the beginning of the process, and local authorities need the powers to enable that to happen. If the prohibition on local authorities imposing pre-commencement conditions goes ahead, that cannot happen. What then will happen is that developers will not be certain about the drainage, the adoption or the maintenance, there will be commuted sum disagreements, developers will in all likelihood put the arrangements into a private company with no quality assurance on the drainage—it will probably end up being a tank somewhere in the ground rather than a scheme that enhances the environment or the area for the homeowner—and future flooding issues will be left for the local authority and the homeowner to pick up.

The Government have given us no evidence that there is a problem. The examples the Minister sent round in the letter to noble Lords were just a series of quotes, mainly from the annual reports from the housebuilders. I have gone through the government consultation and there is no indication of the scale of the so-called problem, and no single citing of a concrete example. It is therefore no surprise that only a minority—44%—of those who undertook the government consultation supported the proposal to prohibit local authorities from imposing pre-commencement conditions. Therefore, there is not majority support from the Government’s consultation for this measure to go ahead.

Of course, planning conditions imposed by local planning authorities should be reasonable and necessary. However, as the Government themselves said on 24 January in response to the EFRA Committee’s report on flood prevention,

“the robust planning approach in place is the best way to control development so that it does not add to flood risk”.

As such, pre-commencement conditions should be seen as a positive tool to deliver this, as well as to ensure that permission can be granted.

To be blunt, this approach is also putting the cart before the horse. After a battle with noble Lords, Clause 171 of the Housing and Planning Act requires the Government to review planning law on policy relating to sustainable drainage in England. That review by DCLG and Defra is currently under way and is due for completion by April. At this point I must say that I am grateful to the Minister for the offer of a meeting on that issue, which I understand is now scheduled for later this week.

The Government have provided no real evidence that there is a problem. Evidence from Scotland and Wales shows that we need to ensure that flooding conditions are settled up front, and there is a real risk here of pre-empting any decisions following the Government’s own review, which we are expecting in the next few months. On that basis, it is absolutely essential that the Government address the issue, and if they will not go as far as removing the whole clause, they should make exemptions for important issues such as dealing with flood risk; otherwise, we will be putting home owners of the future in real danger.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I will make my usual declarations as we start this the third day in Committee on the Neighbourhood Planning Bill. I am an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

This first group of amendments is concerned with Clause 12 and Schedule 3. Government Amendments 28, 35, 40 and 42 all seek to add the word “relevant” before “grant of planning permission”. Perhaps the noble Lord can tell us a little more about why this is deemed necessary and it was not in the Bill in the first place. All the amendments tabled by myself and my noble friend Lord Beecham, who will be with us later—he is attending a funeral at the moment—are probing in nature. They seek to understand the Government’s thinking so that we can be clearer on the objectives, challenge the Government and provide alternative solutions.

Amendment 29 tabled in my name and that of my noble friend seeks to put in the Bill a provision for the Secretary of State to allow local planning authorities to make exceptions to the power being taken by the Government in Clause 12(1)(a) to (c). It is becoming clear how inappropriately named this Bill is—it is a complete misnomer. In this clause the Government are again taking more powers to order local authorities to do things. I can see nothing “localist” about that and nothing that supports neighbourhood planning in any way, so Amendment 29 would allow in a small way some discretion for local planning authorities to make exceptions. But of course, the clause is in the Bill because the Government believe that local planning authorities are holding up the planning process with lots of irrelevant conditions. As I have said many times before, I am a member of a planning committee and I have never had a developer come before the committee and say, “The conditions you are attempting to impose on us are holding up the development”. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, that the Government have provided no evidence for this whatever. It is just not the case, and if there are delays, the Government should be looking at how local government can recover the full costs of its fees so that it can afford more resources in its planning departments.

Amendment 31 seeks to remove lines 37 and 38 on page 10 of the Bill. This extraordinary provision again seeks to give additional powers to the Secretary of State. Amendment 21 seeks to add two specific points which are important, in that account should be taken of the public interest and the sustainability of any development. I hope that all noble Lords agree that these are important considerations in making regulations and therefore should be included. Amendment 33 seeks to amend the Bill so that consultation should include local authorities. I am sure the Minister will tell us that of course the Government intend to consult local authorities, and I will be pleased to hear that, but it would be useful if he set out on the record clearly and specifically whom they intend to consult, because leaving it to chance, very broad and off the record is not the best way to ensure that the relevant bodies and organisations can come forward with their views.

These proposals also need some kind of appeals process built into them. This taking of new powers is a considerable step forward on the Government’s part, and an appeals process would allow a local authority to make its case by bringing in relevant local factors, hence my tabling Amendment 34. Amendments 36 and 37 address the need to seek a bridging agreement to pre-commencement conditions. This is a controversial part of the Bill and we are seeking to delete the provision or, if it remains, a way of dealing with the situation when agreement cannot be reached. A determination through a mediation process may be a way forward. As noble Lords will know, mediation is of course an established way to resolve problems. Again, it would be useful if the Minister told us today what he envisions will happen when the authority and the developer cannot reach agreement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who participated in the discussion and debate on these non-government amendments—specifically my noble friends Lord True and Lady Hodgson, the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy, Lord Shipley and Lord Judd, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Parminter and Lady Andrews.

Before I address each of the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, I will make some generalised points about the position regarding pre-commencement conditions. The absence of pre-commencement conditions does not mean that one can start work automatically. The pre-commencement conditions, once agreed—or if there are none—enable the developer, for example, to raise finance and perhaps to put a construction team together with the security of knowing that he is likely to have permission, but it does not mean that the work will begin. Nor do the provisions of Clause 12 prevent local authorities with gumption—which is most of them, and many noble Lords here represent them—from agreeing conditions. It absolutely provides that conditions can be reached by agreement with the developers and this is what would happen in many cases. We make it absolutely clear that this is not preventing agreement between the parties, which I am sure would happen in the vast majority of cases.

Let me deal with the amendments in numerical order, if I may, so that I do not come to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, until later. I note that Amendment 29 was also tabled in Committee in the other place. The explanatory statement accompanying it explained that the intention, which was also made clear by the noble Lord, is to ensure a local voice in judging local circumstances and the impact of planning decisions. This intention is admirable, and it is absolutely the Government’s aim that the planning system remains centred on community involvement.

Subsection (1) is about ensuring that the well-established policy tests for conditions are adhered to. The proposed power for the Secretary of State to prescribe what kind of conditions may or may not be imposed, and in what circumstances, may only be exercised as provided by subsection (2) where such provision is appropriate for the purposes of ensuring any conditions imposed meet the policy tests in the National Planning Policy Framework. Those tests are reflected in the wording of subsections 2(a) to (d) of new Section 100ZA, which means that the Secretary of State can only use this proposed regulation-making power to ensure that any condition imposed on a grant of planning permission seeks to make the development acceptable in planning terms—in other words, that it is consistent with the National Planning Policy Framework —is relevant to the development and to planning considerations generally; is sufficiently precise to make it capable of being complied with and enforced; and is reasonable in all other respects. In other words, the Secretary of State may make provision in regulations only if such provisions are in pursuit of those policy tests.

For example, as set out in the Government’s consultation on these measures, we are considering prohibiting conditions that planning guidance already advises local planning authorities should not be imposed. These include conditions which unreasonably impact on the deliverability of a development, such as disproportionate financial burdens; which require the development to be carried out in its entirety; and which reserve outline application details. The Government have no intention of using this power to prohibit the use of any reasonable and necessary conditions that a local authority might seek to impose to achieve sustainable development in accordance with the National Planning Policy Framework, including conditions relating to important matters such as archaeology and the natural environment. The Government believe it would be detrimental to the planning process for regulations made under new Section 100ZA(1) to provide for local authorities to make exceptions to the prohibition of the use of certain conditions. To do so would create uncertainty for applicants and additional bureaucracy.

In fact, during our consultation on this measure, local authorities agreed overwhelmingly that conditions should be imposed only if they passed each of the national policy tests. As an assurance for local authorities and other interested parties, subsection (3) of new Section 100ZA includes a requirement to carry out a public consultation before making regulations under subsection (1). It is fairly clear what a public consultation is, and if a national condition is being talked of you would expect a condition on a national basis. If it is more localised—one cannot generalise: cases may differ; they will not all be the same—it will be dealt with according to the law regarding public consultations. I may write to noble Lords to reassure them on how that issue will be addressed, but the Bill makes it clear that, in talking of a public consultation, there is no intention to make this exclusive, and the local authorities will certainly be involved. That will afford the opportunity for local views to be put forward as part of the process of determining how the power will be exercised.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Perhaps the Minister is going to deal with this issue later, but nobody here, including me, wants to impose a single unnecessary condition on any planning application. I would not do that, and nor would other noble Lords present. However, the Minister seems to be describing quite a bureaucratic process for the local planning authority, and I wonder whether he is creating more of a problem than the one he seeks to solve. What we have yet to hear from him is the list of all these councils and planning committees throughout the country that are creating all these conditions. I do not know where they are, and if this measure is so needed, I hope he will give us an extensive list of all the offenders and what they are doing. We have yet to hear that from the Minister or any of his colleagues.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I have covered only one amendment so far. I appreciate that the noble Lord is making a central point and I will seek to respond to it, and if there are other points that he wants to bring up towards the end of our consideration, I will be happy to deal with them.

On Amendment 31, I recognise that there are concerns around the impact on sustainable development, which is evidenced by the fact that this amendment was also put forward in Committee in the other place. However, I need to be explicitly clear that the clause is not aimed at conditions that are necessary to achieve sustainable development. I reassure the noble Lord that appropriate protections for important matters such as heritage, the natural environment and measures to mitigate the risk of flooding will be maintained. If the planning authority in question is unable to come to an agreement with the developer it is obviously the case, just as it is now, that planning permission will not be granted. What we are seeking to do is bear down on those conditions that we think are not appropriate and do not need protection.

It may help noble Lords if I give some background to the same issue when it was raised in Committee in the other place by Roberta Blackman-Woods MP, the honourable Member for the City of Durham, who was concerned about a situation where a condition prohibited by the Secretary of State makes the development acceptable in planning terms but makes it unacceptable in social, economic or environmental terms. The purpose of the planning system as set out in the National Planning Policy Framework is to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development. Sustainable development is recognised as being comprised of three distinct dimensions: economic, social and environmental. Each of these aspects is capable of being material in a planning decision. This amendment would remove a key element of new Section 100ZA(2) which ensures that the Secretary of State can make regulations only under subsection (1) in order to ensure that any conditions imposed are necessary to make development acceptable in planning terms. Subsection (2) is important as it constrains the power in subsection (1) so that it can be used only to ensure that any conditions imposed meet the well-established policy tests for conditions in the National Planning Policy Framework. To recap, paragraph 206 of the framework states:

“Planning conditions should only be imposed where they are necessary, relevant to planning and to the development to be permitted, enforceable, precise and reasonable in all other respects”.


This, as well as subsections (2)(b) to (d) are key safeguards to ensuring compliance with the policy tests, and I therefore believe that the amendment could run contrary to the noble Lord’s intention.

In addition, if by removing subsection (2)(a) noble Lords are seeking to ensure that conditions cannot be overlooked because they are unacceptable for other reasons, the existing drafting of subsection (2)(d) already adequately provides for this in its requirement for conditions to be reasonable in all other respects. Finally, as noble Lords are aware, before making regulations under subsection (1), as I have said, we are required to carry out a public consultation as set out in subsection (3). I appreciate the point made by my noble friend Lord True and others that perhaps it would be of assistance if I set out in a letter following today’s Committee session exactly how we expect the public consultation to play out, but it will give anyone with an interest an opportunity to be heard and for their views to be considered.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

My Lords, I will briefly intervene—it will be brief because I am enormously grateful for the very full answer given by my noble friend. I am grateful for what he said about clarifying “public consultation” and I agree with a number of things he said.

This point was made by others on the first day in Committee, and I will not go over it again, but this is a Neighbourhood Planning Bill. It is about getting things built, but built with consent, which is the trick one has to take. My concern is if a developer says, “I am not agreeing to any conditions of that sort—you can us refuse permission and we will see you in Bristol”. That is not empowering local people in any way. As my noble friend Lady Hodgson said, the risk is that that will happen, because if the developer decides that it does not want to agree, it is almost fast-tracked to the inspector whatever the local authority does, and that is not necessarily building consent into the system.

Perhaps the Government can wrestle with this point over the next few weeks. There really does not have to be any form of incentive in the law for responsible developers not to co-operate. For example, many local authorities have to deal with developers which have not discharged previous planning conditions—they have just ignored them and nothing is done. Someone comes along and says, “I am going to build here”. You see these people and say, “You have not discharged your previous conditions, so let us write something in here to make sure that you are okay this time”. They then say, “We are not agreeing, we are not signing on there”, so it goes through, but does the inspector always take account? I beg my noble friend, as he considers these things further, not to rig the system too far.

The second cautionary thing I would say, having listened very carefully to what my noble friend said about the phrase “acceptable in planning terms”—which does trouble me—is that I understand from my noble friend that the Government cannot rock along and say, “We’ll have a 24-hour casino on that site, thank you very much”, and that it is about restricting the proposed ambit of the planning. This seems eminently justiciable because it does not refer to the national framework at all, as my noble friend pointed out. So if a little local campaign group is armed with a neighbourhood plan or the local development plan, and the Government come in and say, “We are putting forward this regulation to make it acceptable in planning terms and, by the way, by that we mean the NPPF”, the Little Ditchcombe Action Group might say, “It is not acceptable in planning terms, or in accordance with what we have in the neighbourhood plan that we have agreed, or what has been put in the local development plan”, and you could find yourself in the courts—I do not mean my noble friend in particular.

We need to be very careful about how this phrase is defined—many a lawyer and many a judge would have a high old time and earn a few bob in deciding what that phrase means. It is only the second cautionary thing I would say and I very much welcome the spirit and terms of the clause. I accept the way in which my noble friend said that the Government were coming at it, but they need to be careful. There should not be too many more eggs in the developer’s basket and there should be as much definition as possible—please—before Report. With that, I will stop detaining the Committee.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I agree with almost everything the noble Lord, Lord True, has just said. I thank the Minister for his very full response, which is much appreciated. I agree with him—I do not want any conditions imposed, including those he termed “necessary”, “relevant”, “enforceable”, or “reasonable”. I think everybody in the Committee will be in agreement with that—there is no problem there whatever. He also said that these pre-commencement conditions are not necessary. That is good to hear, but I worry that at the end of the day this will all be either so vague that it will not make any difference or so detailed that it will threaten sustainable development. I am not clear about what I have heard from the Minister. I hope he will respond to us in his letter about where we are going because I certainly want to see development take place that is sustainable, that we learn from the lessons of the past and that we get things built properly.

I may have misheard him, but will these discussions between the planning authority and a developer or an applicant take 10 days—someone else may have said that—and if not, how long should that go on for? He is determined but, as the noble Lord, Lord True, said, the risk is that nothing is agreed and that everything goes straight off to the appeals process. That is not delivering development by consent—certainly not sustainable development and not development that is in accordance with the local neighbourhood plan, or the local development plan. I live in London, as the noble Lord, Lord True, does. Certainly, in my own ward we are developing a neighbourhood plan and we are putting hours and hours of work into that. It seems daft that if we agree something, we could then find it all just pushed to one side. I do not know what the Minister can say now, but I certainly look forward to seeing his letter.

In a moment we will debate whether Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill. I look forward to the Minister’s letter because we have still not had the list of rogue authorities. At the moment, I am convinced that the clause is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. We have had one or two problems with plugs and things but these are not massive. If there were these problems, the noble Lord would have listed them in his contribution; maybe they will be in his letter, which I look forward to.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord True for his response. Yes, it is the intention of the Government and I think we have demonstrated that we are keen on consensus in this area. We want to give power to neighbourhood planning; that is the essence of this legislation. However, we do not want to hamper developers and, therefore, housebuilding—which is central to all our aims—with unnecessary pre-commencement conditions. As I have indicated, it is absolutely right that these conditions can, and in many cases should, be agreed between an applicant and the authority. But we do not want to prescribe from the centre situations where this has to be the case. I will seek to enlarge on that in the letter I am writing. I will also, in relation to the plea from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, seek to give further evidence of the unreasonableness of some pre-commencement conditions, because that lies at the root of why we are seeking to bring in these powers. I ask noble Lords not to move their amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

Debate on whether Clause 12 should stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I oppose Clause 12 standing part of the Bill. We have just heard how controversial this clause is. It is nothing to do with neighbourhood planning; it is all about the Secretary of State and the Government taking additional powers at the centre and issuing instructions to local authorities. Nothing I heard in the previous debate changed my mind on that. What lies at the heart of all this? It is a misguided notion that planning departments and planning committees—local authorities—are holding up development, not approving applications and generally being the root of the problem. That is nonsense. As I said before, I have served on a planning committee for many years and our planning department is certainly not sitting there deliberately not approving developments. The Committee has still not been given the evidence of all these problems; we await the letter.

No noble Lord present would dispute that we have a glut of planning permissions already approved in certain parts of the country. This is certainly the case in London and the south-east. I can walk around Lewisham, where I live, and see many applications that I have approved as a member of the committee and very little has happened. Once, in my own ward, nothing happened except a sign going up saying, “Permission to build x houses”.

We do have a problem with land-banking—people holding on to land, looking at its value but not moving forward. Again, I have never known a developer come forward to any committee I have sat on, either in Lewisham or when I was a member of Southwark Council, to suggest that the conditions the council was seeking to impose were somehow going to hold up its development. It was never suggested, in either authority, that we were a hindrance to development. I just do not see that that is the problem that the Government suggest it is. I contend further that some conditions can be positive in enabling things to get under way and agreed quickly, with the local authority and the developer or builder concerned moving forward in a collaborative way.

--- Later in debate ---

I think there will be a series of letters, but I am assured that the first one is awaiting my signature. It does not quite run to 59 pages but it is quite long and relates to the first day of Committee. The second will be ready at the end of tomorrow. I am not quite sure when the team and I will have a chance to have a look at today’s, but we will endeavour to do it after the debate. I ask noble Lords not to oppose the question that Clause 12 stands part of the Bill.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, which has gone on for well over an hour. I place on record my appreciation of the Minister and the open and collaborative way he deals with noble Lords at all times in Committee, in the Chamber and in our deliberations outside. I get on very well with the noble Lord. I have great respect for him and we work very well together. Our job is to raise points and ask questions and I appreciate the way he comes back to us. However, he has not yet really provided evidence of why the clause is necessary or responded to the concerns he has heard from around the Committee. He needs to do that. His response to Amendment 34 in a previous debate highlighted why the clause is not necessary. He listed a whole load of powers that the Government already have at their disposal. I am sure he will go away and look at that.

I agree with the contribution made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, who is a mainstay of the Committee. I agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, when he talked about unnecessary conditions. I do not want to see any unnecessary conditions being imposed or holding up development. I want to see joint working. Very few applications come before members of any planning committee. Most are done under delegated powers by officers. I do not want to do anything that would hold up development. The noble Lord, Lord True, highlighted real problems with Clause 12, as did other Members of the Committee. I hope that the Minister will come back before or on Report with some way forward.

My noble friend Lord Beecham highlighted the issue with the Delegated Powers Committee. The Minister has said he will address his concerns before Report. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, was right when she talked about good place-making and the call for developers and local authorities to achieve it. We have all learned the lesson from the past that there is no point in not doing that. The noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, asked whether it was necessary that these were pre-commencement conditions. Once again, we do not want anything to hold up development. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, may have given the Minister an indication of a way forward in dealing with the clause.

The noble Lord, Lord Bourne, said that there was nothing in the clause to give the Secretary of State any powers that noble Lords have suggested. I respect the noble Lord and the point he is making, but he has to look carefully at the clause and find an alternative way of saying what the Government are trying to achieve. There is genuine concern that it is overbearing and goes too far—that localism is being pushed out of the way and that a lot of people are not going to be listened to. I accept that that is not the intention and I do not doubt for a minute that the Minister will look very carefully at the concerns. My particular concern is that, however well-intentioned, this clause risks local authorities having less influence and less ability to build what they want locally. It risks poorer-quality development and housing and buildings that are not sustainable. I do not think anyone in this Committee wants that. I hope that the Minister will reflect, as he said he would, and come back to us before Report in one of his series of letters. I withdraw my opposition to Clause 12 standing part of the Bill.

Clause 12 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

45: After Clause 12, insert the following new Clause—
“Local authorities and development management services
(1) A local planning authority may set a charging regime in relation to its development management services.(2) In setting the amount of a charge under subsection (1), a local planning authority must secure that, taking one financial year with another, its income from charges does not exceed the cost to the authority of delivering the development management services for which the charges are imposed.”

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, Amendment 45, which is in my name and that of the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, seeks to add a new clause to the Bill. The purpose of the new clause is to make provision for local planning authorities to recover the costs they incur in delivering their development services. This is needed by local government, which very much supports the proposal, and the amendment draws all-party support. Local government already subsidises this process by well over £100 million per annum, which is not right at any time, but particularly at this time of reduced budgets and pressure on local services. The fact that the Government are allowing councils to increase their council tax by up to 5%, particularly to deal with the issue of social care, shows how unsustainable the present situation is.

Amendment 57 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham, seeks to ensure that the costs of the new planning duties are calculated and adequately funded. In opening this debate I will leave my remarks there; there are other amendments in this group, which I am sure will be spoken to, and I may also have a few questions for the Minister when I respond. I beg to move.

[Lord True]

My Lords, before other supporters of the amendment speak, I will briefly signal my view that this matter needs to be addressed. I spoke about it at some length on the previous legislation, and supported the relevant amendments.

As an example, it costs my authority over £1 million a year on a budget of about £150 million, which is a significant amount of money, effectively to subsidise aspirations to development. People want to appropriate an advantage—which is perfectly reasonable in a free society—but impose costs, obligations and sometimes potentially loss on their neighbours. It seems entirely reasonable that this service, which is a good public service and done well, should be paid for by those who by definition can afford it. If you are whacking in a development, whether it is an extension or a major development, you can certainly afford to cover the cost. I ask for no more than the covering of the cost of providing that service. I so much agree with what my noble friend Lord Lansley said earlier. We want good planning officers to enable this thing to happen. Unless we have proper resourcing, it is simply not possible to attract and keep good planning officers.

What is happening here, with all the other pressures on local authorities, is that a sector—those who wish to assert property rights and seek pecuniary or personal advantage by so doing—are being subsidised at the expense of money that is squeezed away from other sectors, whether it is the provision of education, social services, or whatever. I cannot believe that this Government—a Conservative Government—would wish in the longer term to subsidise this small part of the profit-making sector at the expense of broader public social services. Although it is above my pay grade—and although I hope that my noble friend Lord Bourne is immensely influential in the Government, it is probably above his pay grade too—I hope that at some time the cry that this is entirely unreasonable will be heard.

I also have great sympathy with Amendment 57 in this group. Where new burdens are added, please can the costs be considered or covered? Clause 13—to which no amendment is tabled; there would have been one had I been here last week—adds a burden. We had burdens on the housing and planning legislation last year, such as compiling new information and making returns. This means officers being employed—young men and women coming into offices up and down the country, doing time and sending returns to the Government. That is a cost on public funds. I would rather that no additional burdens on local authorities came out of government regulation, but if there are, please can we consider support, particularly in this highly pressed planning sector?

I therefore have sympathy for all the amendments in this group, and I am sure that there will be much give and take about what wording is correct and how it might be done, by whom or when. I beg the Government to allow this service for those who seek to make profit and personal gain and improvement—to which I have no objection in principle at all—to be charged at cost.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Yes, it is imminent. Before I respond to the specific amendments in the group, I want first to echo what has been said. The Government recognise the impressive performance of local planning authorities up and down the country. We have certainly asked much of them in terms of getting Britain building, delivering new homes and providing the employment that will drive our economy forward. There is no doubt that we will want still more from local authorities, and that is why this issue is going to be addressed in the White Paper. I think we all agree that this is a matter of great importance and I am pleased that the White Paper will set out how it can best be addressed. I hope that noble Lords will participate in the discussion on it.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his introduction, and my noble friend Lord True for talking about the current position, which I understand. Let me turn to my noble friend Lady Gardner’s amendment. As she indicated, it is perhaps slightly different from the other amendments in the group. It seeks to enable local authorities to charge fees that exceed cost recovery in respect of their planning functions. It is an interesting proposal but not one I can imagine would be immediately attractive to the applicant. We are certainly clear that the principles on handling public funds mean that when we set fees, such as those for planning applications, they should be set at cost recovery, and that is what we aim to do. Under the Local Government Act 2003, local authorities have the power to charge for discretionary services up to the level of cost recovery at present. I know many local authorities have chosen to use this power to charge, for example, for giving pre-application advice on planning applications. I think that that deals with those situations.

I turn now to the points raised by noble Lords who spoke to other amendments in the group. The points were essentially the same, but let me say something specific about the new burdens issue, which is slightly different and was picked up in Amendment 57 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Lord Beecham. It seeks a requirement to consult local planning authorities on the burdens imposed by new statutory duties before commencing those measures. This raises an important principle and one I am happy to acknowledge. I recognise it is a priority to ensure that planning departments have resources to provide the service that applicants and communities deserve. As noble Lords will probably be aware, we have a long-standing mechanism in place through the new burdens procedure, which has crossed successive Governments, to consider and make provision for funding to local authorities for any additional work arising from new statutory duties. The approach to new burdens provides that when the Government introduce new responsibilities and statutory duties on local authorities, these must be properly assessed and fully funded.

As a matter of routine we discuss new policies with the Local Government Association and value the insight that it brings to the table. All the measures in the Bill have been considered against this doctrine and we do not believe that the burdens in the Bill, if there are any, are expected to have a significant impact on local authority resources. We are committed to working with local authorities to find ways of securing the finance, people and skills they need to maintain strong planning departments. As I said, this has to be seen in the context of the imminent housing White Paper. I hope noble Lords will recognise that these amendments seek to place in the Bill powers and mechanisms that the Government already have and that these matters will, as I said, be reflected in the imminent housing White Paper. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will agree to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I very much agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord True, that these issues need to be addressed. There is cross-party agreement at local government level that it is important we do that. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, both here and outside the Committee, hears that. If costs are not recoverable and the planning officers cannot do their job, then of course all that we are debating here—the desire to move things on as quickly and efficiently as possible—risks coming to nothing or very little. The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, also highlighted the need for these costs to be covered and the issues for local government to be addressed.

The noble Lord, Lord Tope, spoke about the need to keep planning officers, and I very much agree with that. There are many noble Lords in Committee today who are members of local authorities, some in and some outside London. It is the same for planning authorities. I bet the Minister could visit any authority and he would hear the same thing, no matter which party controls or does not control it. There is real pressure on the retention of planning officers and around recovering the costs involved. It is a huge problem. I hope the noble Lord hears what we are saying and will reflect on it. I hope that he can come back to us with something, perhaps on Report.

As always, the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has highlighted some issues; she understands these matters very well and picks up on them incisively. I hope we can come on to them at some point, but my first concern is getting these basic costs covered. Perhaps we can have discussions in future about whether people want to pay extra to get things done more speedily, but for now the priority is getting these costs covered and getting planning departments to function properly. Having said that, at this stage I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 45 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the North of England Civic Trust and of the Historic Chapels Trust. Both organisations restore historic buildings and put them to use in very much the way that the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, described. I welcome her amendment, because it draws attention to a particular problem: the reluctance of local authorities to use their compulsory purchase powers when listed buildings are in advancing disrepair, which in the end will lead them to a state where it is claimed that they can no longer be put right.

I have experienced that in Northumberland, with a notable building called Surrey House, which was a 17th-century building rebuilt in the 18th century, in which the Earl of Surrey was alleged to have stayed on the eve of the Battle of Flodden. I have not yet seen the evidence for that claim, but it is widely made. I imagine he got a good night’s sleep, because he had a pretty good day the following day—from his point of view. There was an application to demolish the building in 1970, and the whole thing dragged on for year after year. The local authority then was a local authority of 26,000 people, and was very ill-resourced to tackle something like this. I thought the problem might be resolved when we moved to a unitary system, where we had a much larger local authority, but it still felt the same constraint. It might go to the extent of urgent works notices, it would be reluctant to go to the extent of a full repairs notice, and it would be extremely unwilling to go to the extent of compulsory purchase.

The lack of legal expertise and the fear of uncertain court costs that may result act as a very severe deterrent to local authorities to use their powers. The result is that you have a meaningless sanction, where owners know that local authorities are reluctant to take the ultimate sanction against them; they can just play the system. It is appalling that this should happen in the type of case particularly covered by the amendment, where there is a charitable organisation in position, ready even, to guarantee the costs of restoring the property. We should not allow that situation to continue.

More generally, even if the Minister is reluctant to accept the amendment in the terms in which it appears, I hope he will recognise that there is a problem here. We have left the system for dealing with neglected historic buildings without a realistic sanction. The sanction has effectively been destroyed by the reluctance of many authorities to take these difficult steps. I wish they had not been so weak in this respect, although I understand some of the reasons, particularly with very small authorities. Unless we do something about it, we will continue to waste wonderful buildings which should be retained and can be of great service to the community.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Andrews. She ably outlined why the Government should give a sympathetic response to it. I was pleased to hear the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, talk about 549 Lordship Lane. I know the property, referred to as the Concrete House. The council has won an award for its work there: it bought it, did a good restoration and now uses it for shared ownership. I support the amendment. I am conscious of the time and I hope that the Minister will also want to respond quickly.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, at this stage of our flight, the co-pilot takes over. After a very smooth passage with my noble friend at the controls, there may well be some turbulence. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for moving this amendment. She chaired English Heritage for four years, so she has a proud record in the conservation world. I applaud the way she is carrying forward that commitment by tabling the amendment to insert a new clause. She is well qualified and well informed on this issue. As she said, listed buildings are an important part of our environment: they create a sense of identity in a locality and support local economies by attracting visitors. As my noble friend Lord Trenchard said, this offers the opportunity to provide housing in some restoration projects. I also commend the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Beith, and the work done by him in his particular field.

We all support the objectives of the amendment, but there may be alternative routes to the common destination. The noble Baroness has been a CLG Minister herself, so she may feel some empathy for someone who, having listened to a popular and powerful case for a well-argued amendment, picks up the departmental brief which has at the top, “Resist”. I have two points of my own to make. Listening to the debate, I wondered if there had ever been a case where a charitable trust had done exactly what the noble Baroness had suggested—raised all the funds and then presented the local authority with an indemnity—and the local authority had refused to go ahead with a CPO. If there was such an example it would be relevant to the case that is being made.

My other thought was that, having sat patiently through the debate on this Bill, I have noticed a recurrent criticism that we are fettering the discretion of local authorities. We are accused of not trusting them, of passing primary legislation which makes them do things. The amendment does have the words “a planning authority must”. What is the view of the LGA, which is very well represented in the Committee? Does it welcome the discretion of its members being fettered in the way that the amendment seeks to do? Having said that, the noble Baroness was quite right to remind us that local authorities have the ability to compulsorily purchase listed buildings that are in need of repair. It is an important weapon in their armoury to protect our built heritage.

If one looks at the guidance provided by the Government, paragraph 16 of the compulsory purchase guidance notes states that it specifically provides for local authorities to consider requests from community groups—which could include heritage trusts—to use their compulsory purchase powers to acquire community assets that are in danger and, under the guidance, local authorities are required to consider such requests and to provide a formal and reasoned response.

In a sense, the onus is already on the local authorities to explain why—were they presented with the sort of offer that we have just heard—they feel they cannot accept it. It is also the case, as the noble Baroness said, that heritage trusts have access to grant funds and other sources of income to enable them to carry out the preservation of listed buildings and bring them back into use. What this amendment seeks to do is, in effect, to lock in a statutory embrace the heritage trusts on the one hand with the resources and the local authorities with the CPO powers on the other. I am slightly worried that this might undermine the collaborative approach which I think works quite well at the moment. As has already been said, the CPO power exists, but I am not convinced that the relationship between the local authority and the trust would be assisted if the local authority knew that the trust had this sanction behind it to compel it to do something.

On the point made by my noble friend Lord Trenchard, Historic England is working with local authorities and giving them advice and financial and technical support in many cases where listed buildings are falling into disrepair, enabling a satisfactory solution to be arrived at. That collaborative approach is the way forward. A good example, which if it were not 7.56 pm I would share with the Committee, is Hastings Pier which was restored in exactly the way that has been outlined.

The noble Baroness has commented that absentee owners are difficult to deal with or if the owners or reputed owners do not engage with the compulsory purchase process it can proceed without them, and the acquiring authority only has to make a reasonable attempt to find them. That attempt includes information in CPO notices simply displayed on site, as well as being sent to the last known address of the owners—then they can proceed.

So far as the trust is concerned, the cost of compulsory purchase is not always easy to assess. There could be court challenges and it could end up in the High Court. The defence of a legal challenge would fall to the trust and any failure of a trust to meet its responsibility to indemnify the local authority would put the trust’s future in jeopardy and the local authority would be liable for those costs.

In a nutshell, the Government are not convinced that the noble Baroness’s amendment to compel a local authority to proceed with a compulsory purchase would have a significant effect on the use of the CPO legislation. The current process provides a balanced approach, allowing local authorities and heritage trusts to enter into mutually acceptable arrangements. It encourages collaboration between local authorities and heritage trusts, and as I have said, that approach could be jeopardised if an element of compulsion were to be introduced.

I am happy to reflect on the dilemma which the noble Lord, Lord Beith, outlined about local authorities’ reluctance to take things forward. In the meantime, with the greatest respect, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.