Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Main Page: Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour - Life peer)Housing and Planning Bill
Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts
Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)
My Lords, perhaps I may seek clarification that we are talking only about nominations to boards of RSLs and not nomination rights over where the tenants who occupy their homes come from. All those homes that were transferred under LSVT were transferred on the basis that the host council which decided to transfer would maintain its nomination rights. I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, is slightly conflicted by having to take an LGA position and an RSL position which are completely opposed to one another on this issue, but sometimes we all have to be Janus-headed.
My concern is not about who sits on the boards, because I think the RSL experiment has failed and I am not sure how many councils would want to be associated with it, but about the loss of nomination rights. Those LSVT units were all taken out of council control; they are not private sector homes—or they were not when they left. The Labour Government who did the transfers assured everybody that they were not being transferred to the private sector. If we are now saying that they are, we must at least honour the agreements under which they transferred. While I will support the Government on this, because it is not an issue I would want to die in a ditch over, I think that it is a lost opportunity. We should take all social housing off the public sector debt book so that we can borrow money against it to provide the homes that we badly need. There are 4 million under-sweated assets out there and we should all be able to do the same thing.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I can see where the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, is coming from with these amendments and I agree with virtually all the comments that have been made in this short debate. As the noble Lords, Lord True and Lord Shipley, said, it would be helpful if the Minister could confirm that councillors could be appointed to boards if the board thought that appropriate. If you are appointed to a board, no matter what your position is, your duty is to that board and to ensure that the organisation functions properly.
As the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, said, it is good if local authorities and housing associations have a good working relationship, but if as part of the scrutiny process a council wanted to engage with a local housing association, that would be welcome.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this very short debate. I particularly appreciate the support of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, and interventions from the noble Lords, Lord Porter and Lord True. To reiterate the background to this measure, some local authorities have rights to nominate housing association board members and act as shareholders. This could allow local authorities in a minority of housing associations to block major constitutional changes. Although local authority control was not one of the reasons why the ONS reclassified the housing associations sector, there is still a risk that this will be identified as a control and delay the reclassification of housing associations.
I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, that councillors can be appointed to housing associations boards in their own right, provided that they do not speak on behalf of the local authorities. For my noble friend Lord Porter, I say that the clauses refer to nomination rights only. I hope that that reassures him that nothing broader is intended here.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Just for absolute clarity, can the Minister confirm that we are talking about nomination rights for directors and not nomination rights relating to tenants, as the noble Lord, Lord Porter, asked?
“81A Granting of secure tenancies A local housing authority may grant a secure tenancy of a dwelling-house in England for a fixed term that is—(a) at least 2 years, and(b) up to and including 10 years.”
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I intend to speak fairly briefly to this amendment. I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, said in respect of the previous group of amendments. Therefore, I will not press this amendment to a vote at this stage and will wait to see what amendment is brought forward before I decide whether I need to bring anything back at Third Reading.
The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, who is about to leave the Chamber, referred to taxpayer subsidies. He is completely wrong about that. This issue was raised in a previous debate in your Lordships’ House on 14 March, following which I tabled a Question to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford. I received a response on 24 March, which confirmed that the assertion was not correct. I will happily send the noble Lord a copy of the response from the noble Baroness. I will now proceed to move my amendment as I know that other noble Lords want to speak to their amendments and hear the Minister’s response. I beg to move.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
My Lords, if I appear to be somewhat of an interloper in these considerations, having not spoken on this Bill previously, it is probably because that is precisely what I am— but I do want to say a few words in relation to Amendment 80A, to which my name is attached.
I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, said in the last few minutes, and even took some notes. I think that she said—I hope that I am not quoting her inaccurately—that longer tenancies to cover the time that children are at school will form part of the amendments to emerge from the Government at Third Reading. That is very welcome. But I would like to reinforce some of the points that I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Evans, who also has responsibility for education, might want to bear in mind as the amendment is being framed.
On 24 March the Department for Education issued a press release relating to research into absences from school at key stage 2, which is seven to 11, and key stage 4, which is 14 to 16. The press release was in the name of the Schools Minister, Mr Gibb. He said that,
“missing school for even a day can mean a child is less likely to achieve good grades, which can have a damaging effect on their life chances”.
I think that that is widely accepted—but how much more disruptive must it then be to have to change school entirely, probably to leave the area in which the family has made its home and re-establish life, friendships and study in a new school in an unfamiliar area?
That means building new friendships and relationships. For children growing up, having friends is so important for sharing ideas and experiences. This is particularly true for those at key stage 4—a time when discussions take place on aspects of exams which could be crucial for their life chances. Lacking those support mechanisms would represent a disruption to school life which would be unnecessary but for the current provisions of the Bill.
The noble Baroness, Lady Evans, will also be aware that the Department for Education is currently undertaking a somewhat controversial consultation on schools funding. One of the questions in the consultation document is:
“Do you agree that we should not include a factor for mobility?”
It might seem strange to some noble Lords that it should even be suggested that mobility is not an issue in terms of funding. However, the National Association of Head Teachers, which is effectively the union for school leaders, is unequivocal in its answer to that question and states:
“No. Pupil mobility is an enormous challenge for some schools, with some of our members reporting in-year mobility of over 50% due to general mobility in an area with high levels of migration or a seasonal workforce. Coping with this and ensuring that those children benefit from their education for the time they are in school and that other children’s education is not disrupted requires enormous effort and investment from schools and this has to be supported by additional funding”.
That view reinforces the results of research carried out by the Royal Society of Arts in 2013, published in a report entitled Between the Cracks. That publication, too, was clear about the disruptive nature for children of having to leave a school, particularly where it happens in-year and they cannot access high-performing schools which are, almost inevitably, full to capacity. So I would like the Government to bear in mind those issues when they are framing their amendment.
Finally, on the day when parents have been finding out if they have got the primary school of their choice for their children, it is surely incumbent on Ministers to ensure that children are given every chance to succeed at school, and not to insert obstacles to learning. I await with interest—and indeed with optimism—the government amendment on this issue and look forward to returning to it at Third Reading.
Lord O'Shaughnessy
My Lords, I was not intending to get involved in this debate but the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spotted me slinking out. Having been singled out, I will respond briefly. Unfortunately my notes have been whisked away, but my point was that there is a certain set of assets—council and social homes—and we all think the number of them should be increased. But we have to think about the distribution of those assets to the most needy households. That is a reasonable principle on which to found a welfare state. If a tenant is about to leave after a short tenancy they are, by definition, in less need than somebody who is on a waiting list.
Secondly, I checked the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the response to it stated:
“Local authorities do not receive subsidy from the Exchequer”.
That is a very important distinction. The new houses are being funded not by a grant from the Exchequer but by revenue from other council and social homes, coming via local authorities. I consider this to be public money. So again it is a question about the distribution of public money and how the asset that has been created is used for the benefit of the neediest.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
We may need to carry this on outside the Chamber. That is not a taxpayer subsidy: the money is coming from local authorities.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Bassam, Lord Beecham, Lord Kennedy, Lord Watson and Lord Kerslake, and my noble friend Lord Porter, for their amendments. Turning first to Amendment 80, it would ensure that new fixed-term tenancies may have a longer term of 10 years in all cases.
As I said, we listened carefully in Committee, and I have found this further discussion at Report useful. A household’s circumstances can change considerably in 10 years, which is why the Government remain convinced that a maximum of five years should be the norm for most fixed-term tenancies. Indeed, 70% of flexible tenancies currently given by local authorities are five years in length. However, we recognise that there may well be situations in which longer-term tenancies are appropriate for tenants who have particular needs—which is why, as I said, we will bring forward an amendment at Third Reading to enable local authorities to grant longer-term tenancies of up to 10 years in certain circumstances. In answer to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in the previous debate, I can say that this will include people with disabilities. We will be looking at other categories, and they will be in regulations which will be subject to the affirmative procedure, so there will be an opportunity to discuss the matter further, and we will of course have ongoing discussions in the run-up to Third Reading.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
My Lords, we are acutely aware of the timing issues, so yes, I give that assurance. I fear that it may mean that we will be working more closely together over the coming days than we have been already.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
We have had a wonderful time, have we not? I thank everyone who has spoken in this short debate. I am hopeful about what we will see from the Government in the next few days; we can all agree that next week, we get to Third Reading. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, Amendment 95B in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham proposes to leave out the words “as an alternative” and add “in addition” to the list of the breaches in Schedule 9 to the Bill. Our reason for tabling this amendment is that the offences here do not justify being downgraded, and if left unamended the effect of the schedule would be just that: they would be downgraded. It would be helpful for me in deciding whether I should divide the House if the noble Viscount could explain very clearly why he believes that these offences should be downgraded and left to a fine by the local authority. I cannot see how that will benefit anyone, or that leaving the courts out of this process would be a good thing. I beg to move.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, as I have said in earlier Committee and Report debates, the measures in Part 5 mark the Government’s commitment to tackle rogue landlords and agents as well as poor practice and standards in the private rented sector. The amendments I shall move in the next group respond to issues raised in Committee when we debated Part 2 and were debated last week, and they clarify issues that were of concern to your Lordships.
Before then, however, Amendment 95B, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Kennedy, would allow the local authority to pursue both a civil penalty and a criminal conviction for the same housing offence. The Bill as drafted provides local housing authorities with a choice on whether they want to go down the civil penalty or prosecution route depending on the seriousness of the offence and the circumstances surrounding it.
It would be disproportionate to use both regimes in relation to the same conduct. In some less serious cases, such as a first offence involving a relatively minor breach of housing legislation or when a landlord has recognised that they need to improve and have taken steps to do so, a local authority may prefer to use the civil penalty route, but for the real rogues that operate in the sector, which we have discussed at length, prosecution will still be important as that can ultimately lead to a banning order.
We will be issuing guidance for local authorities on the workings of this and the Secretary of State will of course be able to use the database of rogue landlords and agents to get a picture of how local authorities are using their powers. I hope that, with this explanation, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I thank the Minister for his response. As I said, generally the provisions in respect of the private rented sector are quite good in the Bill, with one or two exceptions; the exceptions have come with the Government’s desire to take the courts out of these processes. I have not been at all satisfied or persuaded by the comments from the Minister, so I would like to test the opinion of the House.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I now turn to Amendments 96 and 97, which have been tabled in response to issues raised by noble Lords during the course of debate. These confirm that the local housing authority will need to apply the criminal standard of proof to any action taken against a landlord or agent. Amendment 96 addresses concerns raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee about banning order offences, which were echoed and reinforced in Committee. Amendment 97 deals with appeals to the First-tier Tribunal against financial penalties.
A local housing authority which intends to impose a financial penalty must serve a notice of intent setting out both the reason for imposing the penalty and the amount of the penalty. The reasons must reflect that the local housing authority is satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the offence complained of has been committed. The department will be issuing guidance to local housing authorities on financial penalties, including the circumstances in which a local authority should consider imposing such a penalty. I beg to move.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, we discussed these matters in Committee and, as the Minister said, they were raised by the Delegated Powers Committee as well. These are very sensible amendments and we support them.