Internet Activity: Energy Use

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Lilley

Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, in wishing to develop their projects, these are the matters that data centre operators have to keep under consideration. If we are interested in the growth of the UK economy, we should welcome the potential in the UK, and build on what has already been achieved, through data centres and through artificial intelligence. We should look at the amount of money that has been spent in those areas and at the number of highly skilled jobs that are being used to employ many good people.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister explain why electricity in this country is more expensive than in any other OECD country?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord is in a better position to explain, since that was the position we inherited from his Government. It is our view, as well as that of the Committee on Climate Change, NESO and many other bodies, that the best way to get stability and then reductions in prices is to move fast to clean power.

Electricity Capacity Mechanism (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Lilley

Monday 20th January 2025 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)]

My Lords, this instrument was laid before the House on 18 November 2024. It seeks to revoke and alter several provisions in assimilated Regulation (EU) 2019/943 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 5 June 2019 on the internal market for electricity, relating to the capacity market. For ease, I will refer to this as the assimilated electricity regulation. The instrument makes targeted, technical amendments which are intended to support the continued operation of the capacity market, Great Britain’s main mechanism for ensuring security of electricity supply. It does not introduce any practical changes to the operation of the capacity market.

Before outlining the specific provisions of this draft instrument, I will briefly provide some context. Great Britain’s electricity capacity market was introduced in 2014 and is designed to ensure that sufficient electrical capacity is operational and on the system to meet future predicted demand, thereby maintaining security of supply. The capacity market scheme provides all forms of existing and new-build capacity with the right incentives to be on the system to deliver when needed. It covers different types of electrical capacity, including generation, storage, consumer-led flexibility and interconnection capacity.

Through capacity market auctions held annually one year and four years ahead of delivery, the aim is to secure the capacity needed to meet future peak demand under a range of scenarios. This is based on advice from the capacity market delivery body—the National Energy System Operator. Capacity providers which are successful in the auctions are awarded capacity agreements, which range in duration from one to 15 years.

The capacity market was introduced in 2014. Since then, it has contributed to investment in just under 19 gigawatts of new, flexible capacity needed to replace older, less efficient plant as we transition to a net-zero economy. The capacity market was originally approved under European Union state aid rules for a period of 10 years. Following the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union, a requirement in EU law for approval of up to 10 years was brought into domestic law as part of the assimilated electricity regulation. To date, the capacity market has been successful in ensuring that Great Britain has sufficient electrical capacity to meet demand and continues to be required to maintain security of supply and provide confidence to investors.

On the detail of the instrument, it revokes and alters a number of provisions relating to capacity mechanisms in the assimilated electricity regulation, including Article 21.8, which requires that

“Capacity mechanisms shall be temporary”

and

“shall be approved … for no longer than 10 years”,

and other references to such mechanisms being temporary. The instrument also revokes provisions that either are no longer considered to be necessary or require minor correction following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union. We are seeking to make these changes so that our post-EU exit legal framework reflects the continuation of current arrangements for maintaining a secure electricity supply, since there remains an ongoing need for the capacity market to ensure sufficient investment in reliable electricity capacity.

Furthermore, following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union, the domestic subsidy control regime was introduced. The subsidy control regime does not require subsidy schemes to be granted an approval or limited for a specified period. Therefore, the approval requirement in the assimilated electricity regulation does not reflect our post-EU exit arrangements. Of course, it is important that we keep the capacity market under review and there are multiple controls set out in domestic legislation, all of which will be retained. This includes a statutory requirement for my department to review the capacity market regulations every five years, which provides an opportunity to review the need for the scheme. Ofgem also undertakes an independent five-yearly review of the capacity market rules. Furthermore, the Secretary of State can decide not to hold a capacity market auction. These embedded controls all remain as part of the wider domestic capacity market legislative framework.

In conclusion, this draft instrument revokes and alters certain provisions related to the capacity mechanism in the assimilated electricity regulation. This includes a requirement for an approval lasting no more than 10 years, as well as references to capacity mechanisms being of a temporary nature. These changes are being made to ensure that our domestic legislative arrangements reflect the continuation of the capacity market, which is Great Britain’s main mechanism for ensuring electricity security of supply. I beg to move.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, I want to use this as an opportunity simply to ask a question of the Minister. Why do we not take the advice of Professor Dieter Helm, in his review of energy policy, which was that instead of us providing the capacity mechanism centrally, we require anyone providing electricity into the system—wind generator, solar generator or whatever—from an intermittent source to provide firm power, in other words to pay for some capacity for the times when the wind is not blowing? If that were done, this whole arrangement would be unnecessary. We would have a much clearer idea of the total cost of intermittent energy if the supplier were also paying for some of the back-up capacity that is necessary to meet the occasions when intermittency prevents delivery of the power.

The only argument I have heard against this is that, if you do it wind farm by wind farm, the aggregate amount of capacity would be statistically greater than is necessary to meet the fact that some wind farms will be producing when others are not, but that surely can be overcome by saying that a certain statistical proportion of the necessary capacity should attach to any intermittent generator. Then we would have a more rational, more credible and more manageable system than the one that we have under these regulations.

Clean Heat Market Mechanism Regulations 2024

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Lilley

Monday 20th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for letting me intervene and for answering a number of my questions. On his point about costs coming down, is he suggesting that they will come down in Britain because they are artificially high to start with, or because we will discover technological ways of producing it that have not been found in continental countries, where they already have large-volume manufacturing? That is one thing.

Could the Minister also respond to another point I made, admittedly in rather garbled form, so I can excuse him for not replying? The correct figures in his document are that the costs of this process are £195 million, while the benefits from reduced carbon emissions are £187 million—less than the costs—but, fortunately, that is supplemented by £34 million of benefits from cleaner air. The whole thing is pretty marginal. Could he comment on the marginality of the cost benefits of this extraordinary regulation?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, surely the point is this: we have to decarbonise our home stock. At the moment, 80% of homes use gas for heating so, as part of our plans towards decarbonisation and moving on to net zero, this is an essential mechanism that we need to take forward. As for the cost-benefit analysis, I do expect the cost of the heat pumps to come down in relative terms, in future. I am not prepared to engage with the noble Lord on the exact whys and wherefores of how that might happen. I just look in history—

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

So leave it to miracles.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

No. The noble Lord referred earlier to mystical or quasi-religious belief. I regard myself as a high church Anglican atheist, and I do not bring a fervour to this from belief; I think that the rational response to what we are doing, and to the risk of climate change, is so huge that we have to use these kinds of mechanisms and do something about housing and the current use of gas. This is the way that we think we need to go forward, but we will keep it under review and look closely at costs, manufacturing capacity in this country and the public’s ability to ensure that they have good installations. Overall, I commend these regulations to the Committee.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Lilley

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I welcome so many Members of the Opposition to our debate and I look forward to their continuing interest in our deliberations going on this evening. I must confess to being somewhat at a loss, because all the points raised in this debate have been raised tonight in other amendments. What we are seeing is clearly a filibuster, and the degrouping of so many of these amendments on Clause 6 is the visible evidence of this. We have already had a debate on energy storage, which the noble Lord, Lord Murray, moved. We have already debated power lines and planning environmental protections, and we have discussed nuclear power, SMRs and AMRs. I simply do not understand. What is the point of having yet another debate on these issues, which amount to Second Reading discussions about the Government’s energy policy? We are debating Clause 6 directions. This is a backstop provision, normal in Bills of this sort in relation to the bodies that we are talking about, and it is quite inappropriate for us to seek to micromanage GB Energy in the way noble Lords have suggested.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his non-reply to the debate. The answer to his point about whether it is necessary is that it is impossible to overstate the importance of cheap and reliable energy to the economic growth of this country. If the only way we can have reliable energy is by having hugely costly energy, either because, as the noble Lord, Lord Reay, said, to ward off delays as we saw in recent days costs eight or 10 times what it normally costs or because to prevent that sort of risk involves spending hundreds of billions of pounds, that is hugely important. I am very sorry that the Minister, whom I normally praise for his replies, which are usually fulsome and effective and substantive, has avoided addressing those points, because they are crucially important and they have many aspects and it is important that those many aspects be investigated in the course of these debates in Committee. Obviously, I shall withdraw my amendment, but I hope that none the less that we will force the Government to think seriously about these issues before carrying us further down a route which could make our already very expensive energy even more expensive.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Lilley

2nd reading
Monday 18th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

We are. There is always going—

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I tabled a Question some time ago to ask the Government whether they knew of any peer-reviewed science or any science collected by the IPCC which suggested that there would be extinction of the human race if we did nothing worldwide—not as much as we are doing now, but nothing—and they said that there is no such peer-reviewed science. Why does the Minister rely on alarmism?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am not alarmist at all. I rely on report after report showing the consequences. Shall we turn to our own independent Climate Change Committee? The noble Lord supported the Conservative Government over a 14-year period. I did not see that Conservative Government disowning the independent advice they had received. He might as an individual, but I do not think his Government did. Noble Lords opposite, when they run down organisations such as the Climate Change Committee—or, indeed, the OBR, as they seem to now—need to remember that they listened to and reflected on the advice of those bodies during that 14-year period.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that if climate change is critical, energy security comes a close second. That is, of course, what makes the Bill so important, so I hear what noble Lords are saying. The noble Lords, Lord Offord, Lord Duncan and Lord Bourne, the noble Baronesses, Lady Bloomfield and Lady Hayman, my noble friend Lord Hanworth, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and a number of other noble Lords have commented on the structure of the Bill, with concerns about a lack of detail and questions about the accountability of GBE to Parliament, how it is to be reviewed, and its relationship with the national wealth fund, Great British Nuclear, the Crown Estate, NESO, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, mentioned, the Climate Change Committee.

I also say to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, that the fact that GBE is going to be headquartered in Scotland of course does not inhibit its UK-wide responsibilities. I have noted what he had to say about investment in Wales.

However, I accept that there are a number of organisations here and I will take it upon myself to write to noble Lords, setting out how we think the relationships will work together, as I think that will inform our discussions in Committee. On the structure of the Bill, noble Lords will know that this was laid in the Commons very soon after the election as an early priority of the Government. Because of that, we have focused, inevitably, on the provisions that are fundamental to the establishment of Great British Energy. Clearly, we are still working through some of the policy issues on which we need to come to a view, including, of course, discussing them with GBE and the devolved Governments. That is why the Bill, to an extent, does not have the detail which noble Lords wish to see.

However, I have listened very carefully. We will come to Committee, and I hope I can respond constructively to some of the issues that noble Lords have raised. Equally, I want to ensure that GBE is operationally independent and able to make its own decisions within the structure of the Bill and the strategic priorities laid down by the Secretary of State. We are listening very carefully to what noble Lords have to say.

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, last week in our debate on energy, I fully accept that our drive towards clean power by 2030 is but one aspect of the decarbonisation of society in this country and the move to net zero. In relation to transport, heating and industrial processes, this is a huge challenge and one which we are committed to achieving. The noble Lords, Lord Offord and Lord Ashcombe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, asked about the clean power target. There are a number of different ways of reading the report from NESO, but it is quite clear that the number one message from NESO was that it is possible to build, connect and operate a clean power system for Great Britain by 2030 while maintain security of supply. I accept that it is very challenging—there is no doubt whatever about that—and the NESO report contains a number of those challenges. However, this is independent advice; it says that it can be done and we believe it can be done. It is very challenging, but it is doable.

On cost, as the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said, the biggest cost is doing nothing. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said, the Climate Change Committee has said that the net cost of transition will be less than 1% of GDP over the entirety of 2020 to 2050. The OBR has highlighted that delayed action on reaching net zero will have significant negative fiscal and economic impacts and that acting early could

“halve the … cost of getting to net zero by 2050 compared to acting late”.

I noted also the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, on this.

I come to the Bill itself. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, raised that we have partly used the UKIB legislation as a model for some of the clauses in this Bill. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness were particularly focused on the make-up of the board of directors. The fact is that we have brought in clauses from the Great British Nuclear provisions in the Energy Act. The structure very much follows that. We do not think that it was necessary to put into primary legislation provisions in relation to the board, because this will be covered. It is a company, and so will be encompassed within company law, the code of practice and sound corporate governance. GBE will have a chair and a chief executive officer, both of whom will be accountable to Ministers. It will have a board of directors that follows sound corporate governance practice, including the provisions of the UK Corporate Governance Code and those published by the Financial Reporting Council.

We want GBE and the national wealth fund to work closely together. As Great British Energy scales up, we will set out how the two institutions will collaborate and complement each other. On the issue of crowding out investment, surely my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer was right. The whole point about GBE is to speed up the deployment of mature and new technologies but with a focus on where this can complement existing private sector activities.

I must say that the references that the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, made to HS2 and the Post Office were a bit rich, considering the record of the Conservative Government’s stewardship, or not, over 14 years.

I will come on to Clause 3, the objects, which has drawn quite a lot of comment. I say to my noble friends Lady Winterton and Lord Grantchester and to the noble Lords, Lord Cameron and Lord Naseby, among others, that emerging technologies such as CCUS or hydrogen could be very much part of GBE’s portfolio once it is operational. I noted the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, on waste. On Drax, we had a good run on that a couple of weeks ago, although I may not have convinced noble Lords of the Government’s position. I look forward to discussing storage with the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, and my noble friend Lord Stansgate. I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, on the potential of floating offshore wind.

We, of course, are reluctant to see a list of technologies. Noble Lords sitting on the Front Bench will be readily aware of the list argument, and it is well taken. If you list, you are at risk of excluding other technologies. One must be very careful not to constrain the ability of GBE in its operational independence and its ability to spot the technologies that need supporting. I do accept, with my noble friend Lady Young, that community energy has huge potential in itself and as a way to leverage public support generally for the kinds of changes that we need to see happen. We certainly believe that GBE will deliver a step change in investment in local community energy projects and will work strongly in partnership with local authorities and community groups to deliver this. I know that local authorities would welcome a much stronger partnership to enable this to happen. I take the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and my noble friend Lady Young about biodiversity. I look forward to discussing that further with them and in Committee.

I come now to my favourite topic: nuclear energy. First, we want to make sure that GBN can carry on with its work—the technology appraisal of the shortlisted technologies for the SMR programme is particularly important—and that it will work in complementary ways to GBE without there being duplication of effort. I picked up the important contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale. I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, that nuclear power is not being underprioritised in my department. I need no persuading of the importance of nuclear energy. It acts as the essential baseload, and when it is aligned with gas that, in future, will be abated by CCUS, we will have the right balance to complement the intermittency of renewable energies.

On nuclear and resources, we have just announced a huge resource allocation to Sizewell C to get it over the next two years. We are working very fast towards final investment decisions over the next few months; we have the SMR programme and we are very excited by the potential of AMRs. I very much take what my noble friend Lady Winterton said about the potential of SMR manufacturing in the UK.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the grid and planning and what they described as the roadblocks to developers. I very much take that point. We have already signalled, in parallel with GBE, our intention to reform the planning system to enhance our grid connections. I take the point about the delays to the connection which developers are suffering at the moment. Clearly, we have to do something about that, but GBE’s main priority will be to help developers get through some of the roadblocks and focus on the energies that need support.

I noted with interest the comments the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, made about the impact on farmers and on fishing fleets. I accept that consultation and environmental assessments must continue to be made in any more streamlined planning process and expansion of the grid.

My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer and the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, raised the question of state subsidies and competition law. As an operationally independent company, GBE will be subject to the same legal and regulatory framework as other entities in relation to subsidy control and competition law, such as the Subsidy Control Act 2022. The Bill does not alter that framework.

I hear what noble Lords say on Clause 5 in relation to strategic priorities and the statement. It is unlikely that we will have published the statement of strategic priorities before Royal Assent, but I have listened to what noble Lords have said. I will reflect on that and I am sure we will discuss it further in Committee. Noble Lords seem to be indicating that they would like to discuss it in Committee.

On power of direction, the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, was particularly assertive that the Secretary of State would wish to take almost micromanagement control. I assure him that that is not the intention. It is a backstop, reserve power.

On the annual accounts and reports, there will, of course, be accountability. The chief executive officer will be the accounting officer. The National Audit Office will oversee. Ministers will answer to Parliament. Select Committees can invite GBE in to give evidence. Noble Lords will debate. We will have Questions and more general debates.

I listened to noble Lords and I understand that they have looked at the UKIB legislation. We will reflect on that, but my noble friend Lady Young is right: there is a balance here between due accountability and not putting a load of bureaucratic micromanagement on this organisation, which is not what we want to happen.

I absolutely agree with noble Lords that we must make the most of the supply chain. I picked up the point about skills and managing the transition in the North Sea.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton—my noble friend, if I may call him that—and I have worked together on these issues. I congratulate him on his work and the huge effort that he has made in Parliament, the influence that he has had on legislation, and the help that he gave me around enforced organ harvesting, particularly in Xinjiang province but in China more generally. At this stage, we expect UK businesses, including GBE, to do everything in their power to remove any instances of forced labour from their supply chains. They should not approve the use of products from companies that may be linked to forced labour. I am very happy to talk to the noble Lord about the energy potential of Merseyside, as he suggested, and to discuss the issues that he raised so eloquently.

I have reached the time limit. This has been a very good debate and I am most grateful to noble Lords. I would like to think that contributions were constructive, and I look forward to debating this in Committee.