Children and Social Work Bill [HL]

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2016 Grand Committee

[Lord Nash]

I will write to the noble Lord about that.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have just picked up the debate we had in Grand Committee on 6 July, when the noble Lord, Lord Warner, raised the issue of legal and medical privilege. Then the noble Lord said he did not think that anything needed to be added to the Bill, although he recognised that guidance would need to be given to the panel in respect of the information it requests.

I assume that there will now be a considerable time between Committee and Report. I understand that this is a very complex matter. The question of the independence of the judiciary is clearly paramount; equally, my noble friend has made an important point about the need for the panels to obtain relevant information. So, rather than a quick letter, I hope that the Minister will agree to consider this important matter in some depth.

[Lord Nash]

Yes, I will certainly do that, and on that basis I commend the amendment.

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I turn to my last point. Again, I apologise for there being so many but this concerns a big change. Can the Minister point me to where there will be learning from the reviews that these new panels undertake? I understand how they will come up with recommendations but I am not clear about how we will be sure that they are effectively implemented. Unless we do that, we are not going to improve the protection and safeguarding of children, which I know is at the heart of what the Minister and the Committee are trying to achieve with the Bill.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, that was an interesting contribution by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. I particularly wish to pick up the issue of challenge. Whether or not it is right for local authorities to be members of these bodies is one thing, but I have no doubt that the issue of challenge is a very important one. I would like to hear from the Minister about how we ensure that that takes place.

First, on the issue of bringing these together in areas larger than one single local authority, like the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, I consider that if this is a sensible approach to deal with some of the current boundary issues, that is fine. However, if there were an underlying view within the department that we had too many and it wanted them to be reduced in large numbers—central government departments often believe that—then I would worry. Ideally, we want one local authority to be seen to be responsible, rather than a number of them. The whole argument for bringing in these new arrangements, particularly in relation to Amendment 113, is to streamline the process so that there is much clearer accountability. I hope that we are not going to lose that straightforward accountability because we think we need to make it much easier for chief constables to be able to discharge their responsibility.

My second point is this. I have no objection to the formulation of safeguarding partners and their ability to invite any other relevant agencies that they consider appropriate. I took the point made by the noble Baroness in an earlier debate about the boards of probation officers. However, I ask the Minister: when those are set up, could his department actually monitor who the safeguarding partners designate as relevant agencies so that we can at least keep track nationally of what is happening? If we found that the probation services were not really part of any of these bodies at local level, I would begin to worry.

Thirdly, I have a question on Amendment 119, which mentions guidance. Will the Minister explain the status of that guidance—is it advisory or is it statutory?

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, as we are in Committee I say to the Minister that the latest report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has miraculously reached me and that it comments on his Amendments 113 and 115. It refers to two instances where the committee considers that the delegated power conferred in the amendments is inappropriate. I do not expect him to respond today, clearly, but I hope that between now and Report he will give that some attention.

[Lord Nash]

We are considering that report and we will respond in due course. On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, about national government departments modelling effective collaboration, we are indeed taking considerable steps to work together effectively, in particular with the Home Office and the Department of Health. In view of what I have said, I hope noble Lords will support the amendment.

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[Baroness Hughes of Stretford (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a question about these clauses, which are generally welcome. The more information we have about child death comprehensively, the easier it will be to take any necessary action. As I read the clauses, however, although I may have missed something, I cannot see what the review partners will be required to publish. Subsection (4) in new Clause 16M of the Children Act 2004 in Amendment 121 says they must,

“prepare and publish a report on … what”,

the partners,

“have done as a result of the arrangements … and how effective the arrangements”—

which I take to be partnership—“have been”. However, I can see nothing in here about the kind of analysis that the Minister was just referring to—the kinds of deaths that have occurred, for what purposes, the demographic and other characteristics of the children and so on. Could she enlighten us about what will be required in terms of general access to the information that has been collected here?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I would like to add another point. Here we are talking about child death review partners, and in the previous debate we were talking about safeguarding partners. I wonder if this is a concept that might be used with regard to the earlier part of the Bill relating to corporate parenting. The Minister will know that we had amendments to Clauses 1 and 2 around corporate parenting, the argument being that in order to discharge corporate parenting roles properly the local authority needs the support of core partners in the local area, including the health service and other agencies. I think we have all agreed that nothing should be done to dissipate the role of the corporate parent by, if you like, detracting from the local authority’s responsibility. However, I wonder if the concept of safeguarding partners and death review partners is an approach that we might consider. I realise that this is not the point to discuss corporate parenting, but it is an interesting concept that we might think about when we return to the subject.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank noble Lords for their interventions. Perhaps I can take away the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, the child death review partners will be required to publish information on what more local authorities and CCGs can do to prevent deaths, including analysis and data. I am happy to come back to her with some further information following this discussion.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am no expert in this area, but I still have not got hold of an example of what the provision is that stops innovation taking place. Is it about reporting and bureaucracy, or is it to do with an actual statutory responsibility? I am unclear about that. The Minister must be aware that, at this rate, he has no chance of getting this through the House of Lords as it stands. It is a question of what he wants to convince the Committee and then the House at some point. Is it about allowing local authorities to do the right thing with fewer bureaucratic controls, or is it saying that one can actually stand down part of the core legislation? That is what I am unclear about.

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[Lord Nash]

I heard the noble Lord the first time. I have not got very far but if I am allowed to continue I shall get to it. This power is about creating a safe mechanism to test new ways of working to improve outcomes for children. It creates a controlled, time-limited space to test new ideas. It is not about eroding children’s rights or removing the basic duties of local authorities to safeguard children. The power is not about questioning the fundamentals of what local authorities need to do, but about exploring how things could be done better.

I will try some more illustrations. I do not suppose they will get me very far but since I have more to say, perhaps people could bear with me. I shall illustrate this point with two examples. First, it is felt that on some occasions applying the full gamut of care-leaver regulations associated with children on remand, who automatically become looked-after when in custody, is not always the best option for those children. Local authorities are interested in developing a service that better responds to their needs, informed by the young person, which, where a local authority can make a professional decision, would ensure better and informed choices without an unwanted service automatically being triggered by legislation. A real-life example of that was given to us by one of our partner in practice local authorities. In this instance, the young person was returning to live with their grandmother. Applying the burdens and processes associated with looked-after children placements unnecessarily overcomplicated matters for both the authority and, most importantly, the young person and their family.

Secondly, as I highlighted at Second Reading, there is a widespread view that adoption and fostering panels do not always add value, and can often delay the process of approving prospective carers. These panels are only advisory, with the ultimate decision resting with the local authority. Local authorities explain that they think they could get to the same decision quicker without the panel in some circumstances. The freedom likely to be requested would be to remove the requirement always to have the panel in place for all cases, and for the agency decision-maker, who currently makes the decision, to continue to exercise their professional judgment. In straightforward cases, the decision would be made quicker to allow the best solution to be progressed faster so that children get the support they need. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Watson, said about the concerns that Coram has in this respect, and we will be very happy to talk to Coram about its concerns in some detail.

I will speak to other examples as I go through my response to the amendments. In turn, the department will look to evaluate the use of the power so that we understand the impact, where there is a case for permanent changes to the legislative framework—changes that would of course come back for further scrutiny to this House.

I turn to Amendment 129, clarifying the purpose of this power to innovate. I agree that a focus on improved outcomes for children and young people is key. However, the drafting of the clauses already makes clear that the power is focused on outcomes for children and young people. Clause 15(1) refers to children’s social care legislation. The Children Act 1989 and its associated legislation is designed with the outcomes for children and young people at its core. By referencing children’s social care legislation explicitly, it is clear that the clause is directed at outcomes for children and young people.

On Amendments 130 and 131, I agree that the Bill should not lead to any changes that adversely affect the rights of children or lead to the withdrawal of support or services that they depend on. The whole point of these clauses is to allow local authorities to do things better. We do not propose to put an independent review panel in place. However, there will be a variety of safeguards in place to ensure that the power is not misused and that all applications are subject to very robust consideration before they are approved.

In particular, I draw noble Lords’ attention to the requirements both on the local authority to consult its safeguarding partners and relevant agencies and on the Secretary of State to consult Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Education, Children’s Services and Skills and the Children’s Commissioner. Of course, representing the views of children and young people is a key part of the Children’s Commissioner’s role, and Ofsted will also need to consider its functions of promoting the best interests of children when consulted on the use of the power. It is also important to note that any changes to primary legislation will be debated in both Houses, which in many ways constitutes the independent reviewing process that these amendments seek. In answer to the point on consultation with children in care and their representatives made by the noble Lord, Lord Wills, I agree that the voice of the child should be recognised when requested freedoms are being considered.

While I am not proposing to accept the amendment, I would like to provide reassurance that children are at the core of this provision. In most cases, we would expect local authorities to have consulted children affected by any change and in fact many of the possible changes that local authorities have discussed with us originate from requests from children, as I have already said. For example, in the case of independent reviewing officers, children have fed back to our partner in practice authorities that they do not like additional people who they do not know to be present at their case reviews discussing intimate information. More specifically, in the case of North Yorkshire, just over 400 children and young people are looked after. The vast majority are very settled and achieving well. Older young people in this position tell the authority that they find regular formal reviews unsettling and that they would like to be treated like their non-looked-after peers. There is then a much smaller number, on average 20, who are not currently settled and require regular in-depth reviews. This is one area in which a request for use of the power to innovate may well be made to make more effective use of the experienced cohort of independent officers.

The noble Lord, Lord Watson, talked about the risk assessment of exemptions. I agree that it is vital that we consider this carefully before any exemptions are agreed. We will need to do that, looking at the merits of each application from the local authority, when bringing forward regulations under Clause 15. Noble Lords may know that in responding to the DPRRC report I committed to bring forward an amendment to ensure that all regulations will be accompanied by a report setting out anticipated benefits and the protections to be put in place by local authorities to mitigate risks. That, combined with the other safeguards that we have in place, means that risk will be assessed and managed.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, raised a point about how local authorities would be chosen. I would expect any local authority that wants to apply for an exemption to demonstrate strong leadership and either strong performance or a clear trajectory of improvement consistent with the approach that it wants to test. Ultimately, the Secretary of State will not take forward any requests if she has concerns about the local authority’s ability to implement the change safely or to learn from the testing and share its insights with the wider sector. That is why I anticipate that the first application will be from our partner in practice authorities—a group of 11 of the best-performing children’s services in the country.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raised points about Professor Eileen Munro and what she wanted. She said:

“I welcome the introduction of the power to innovate set out in the Children and Social Work Bill. This is a critical part of the journey set out in my independent review of child protection towards a child welfare system that reflects the complexity and diversity of children’s needs”.

I am delighted that so many noble Lords have referred to excellent examples of innovation by various local authorities, but of course just because some innovation is taking place without changes to legislation does not mean that others will be able to innovate without making such changes. Of the examples that we have been discussing with local authorities, all need exemptions from secondary and in some cases primary legislation. I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, setting out what primary and secondary legislation blockages are in place before Report.

To answer the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, there are no limits to what can be requested; the Secretary of State is concerned about the impact on children, and if she thinks it is appropriate, it will proceed.

However, in view of noble Lords’ concerns and suspicions about our motivation, the best way forward—in addition to writing to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and sharing that letter with all Peers—is to have what I suggested. I hope that all noble Lords who are interested will come to a meeting with a number of local authorities and individuals where they can explain in detail why they need this power, and noble Lords who feel that they can achieve the same objective without using it can talk about that. We can have a detailed, granular discussion about specific examples, rather than a high-level discussion, which is always, in my view, rather dangerous. I commit to organising that, and I hope that all noble Lords will attend.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down— I thank him for his response—is not the requirement really to have a meeting with parliamentary counsel to see how Clause 15(2) can be redrafted in such a way that it is clear that the kind of change that the noble Lord wishes to make is essentially small-scale and minor? The problem is that, although he has made that commitment from the Dispatch Box, none the less, this is such a huge power. It is not the issues, it is the way it is drafted. Surely there must be a different way to draft a power that allows for certain discretion in the circumstances he describes without seeming to exempt the whole of social care legislation. I suggest that parliamentary counsel might have a role to play.

[Lord Nash]

I think it would be much better to make that analysis when we have had the sort of meeting I am talking about and we have more visibility on particular examples.

Amendment 121A, tabled by the noble Earl, deals with support and safeguards where the power is used. I briefly return to my previous point that the power is about creating a controlled mechanism for testing, strengthening and improving the current system. It is not about removing basic rights that are essential to improving outcomes.

I give another example to illustrate the use of the power. Local authorities tell us that a carer who is either a family member or friend is often thought to be the best placement option for a child in care, but the requirement that they become an approved foster carer after a 16-week grace period can be difficult to achieve, especially where family and friends have no real desire to be local authority-approved foster carers generally. We discussed in Committee last week the important role that grandparents can play. This is exactly the sort of area where use of the power could make better use of the strengths they bring.

Exemption from this requirement could mean local authorities being able to place a child with the person to whom they have the greatest attachment. There could still be an option for the carer to become an approved foster carer if they wish, but the exemption would give flexibility for the carer and a better chance of achieving the most suitable option for the child being selected.

Returning to the amendment, requiring a local authority to reinstate existing processes and procedures upon individual request would considerably weaken a local authority’s ability to assess the effect of the power. As outlined in my example above, however, there is nothing to stop a local authority offering this level of service if it was in the best interest of the child. Let me reassure noble Lords that exemptions will be granted only for a time-limited period because the local authority and the Secretary of State are persuaded the new approach holds out the likelihood that the child or children can be better served in a different way.

In order to test and evaluate exemptions properly, I feel it is right that local authorities should not be subject to an infinite range of requirements in respect of different children, but can use their professional judgment in response to the child’s request. I remind noble Lords that if regulations made under the power are not found to have had the desired effect, they can be revoked swiftly using the negative resolution procedure. In addition, authorities are and will be subject to the usual Ofsted inspections and will be monitored via the department to evaluate and create an evidence base of what works.

I recognise that Amendment 131B reflects the recommendations of the DPRRC. I am happy to say that in my response to the Committee last week I signalled my intention to make amendments to achieve the same effect. In view of that, I hope that the noble Lord will feel reassured enough not to press his amendment at this time and will support our amendment at Report.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 132 and the interaction between this power and the corporate parenting principles. There are numerous broad, overarching duties on local authorities in children’s social care legislation in different Acts of Parliament. The corporate parenting principles are an example of such an overarching duty. Our conversations with local authorities have not been focused on these overarching duties. They want to focus on how they could change the way of working to allow their children’s social care staff to focus more on children and families themselves, not on changing their overall objectives. Specifically to exclude an overarching duty such as corporate parenting would beg the question as to why it had been singled out. Excluding some but not others could give rise to the same question. Equally, excluding all overarching duties from the many pieces of primary legislation in the area of children’s social care would make the clause unnecessarily complex.