Armed Forces Bill

Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, the courts of this country have long had extra-territorial jurisdiction to try in this country offences of murder, manslaughter, piracy, treason and certain other, more obscure offences. However, they do not have extra-territorial jurisdiction for sexual offences. Amendment 11 would give the courts of this country jurisdiction to try somebody in the ordinary civil courts, if that person is subject to service law or is a civilian subject to service discipline, who commits an act in a country outside England and Wales that would be a sexual offence. Various sections from the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which I have quoted, relate to serious sexual offences. That would mean that a sexual offence committed abroad would be subject to the protocols in this country that now exist between the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Director of Service Prosecutions and could be tried in the ordinary civil court, as opposed to the courts martial. Courts martial are now established courts, with centres at Bulford, Catterick and Colchester. A person who commits a sexual offence who is subject to service law abroad now could be brought to this country and tried for the sexual offence by way of court martial but could not be tried in the ordinary courts. That is the purpose of Amendment 11: to extend extra-territorial jurisdiction to cover sexual offences.

As for election for trial in the UK, my amendment suggests that such a person, who is subject to service law and has committed an extra-territorial offence that could be tried by a court martial at Bulford, Catterick or Colchester, could elect to be tried in the ordinary courts if he or she so wished. Of course, he or she would have to take advice on what was more appropriate, but it would mean that he or she would have the opportunity to be tried not by officers but by 12 ordinary jurors in this country. I beg to move.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

Will the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, clarify one thing? I am a member of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and this past week we have been looking at the agreement with the Government of Kenya for the provision of two training areas. There are various changes taking place within that, and one is that all Armed Forces personnel going there will have to obtain visas in future. How, then, does what the noble Lord proposes tie in with the provisions of Kenyan law for people who are in that country? Does our military discipline law come ahead of Kenyan domestic law, and how does that tie in with what he is proposing in terms of its extension and its further extra-territorial application?

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

When British service personnel operate abroad and are stationed abroad, there is an agreement made with the Government of that particular country. A protocol is brought about whereby decisions can be made according to the machinery agreed in that protocol about whether a person committing an offence in, for example, Kenya, should be tried by the local courts or by court martial. Obviously, that would apply to all cases of offences that are committed in Kenya which would be contrary to its law. In all probability, as has happened in Germany, very much would depend on whether the local population was involved. For example, under a protocol with the Kenyan Government, the rape of a Kenyan woman would almost certainly be tried in a Kenyan court. On the other hand, if it involved personnel who were on duty there together, it would almost certainly be dealt with under the protocol by the service disciplinary system. I am proposing that if it amounts to a serious sexual offence, or an extra-territorial offence such as I have described, it could be heard in this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, with these issues, it is always difficult to measure casualties. That is not necessarily an argument against the amendment from the noble Baroness. Just to be really helpful to the Minister, of course, there are lawful combatants and there are unlawful combatants. So that is another issue.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, kindly said, I tabled a similar, rather less focused, amendment in Committee on 3 March and we had a useful debate then. I was grateful for my noble friend’s response, and we explored a number of the challenging aspects of this difficult matter. Now we have this more focused and more pointed amendment, redrafted in the light of those discussions and of the subsequent information that has been made available. Unsurprisingly, I am therefore inclined to support it.

In his reply to the debate, my noble friend’s argument for being unwilling to consider the amendment rested, I think, on two major planks: on the one hand, the inflexibility resulting from enshrining this sort of requirement in primary legislation; and, on the other, operational confidentiality. These two arguments were backed by a statement of general good intent on transparency. My noble friend will appreciate that I absolutely accept his sincerity on these matters, but operational confidentiality could become an elastic concept, capable of being interpreted to cover a pretty wide range of situations. When backed only by a statement of intent without any statutory teeth, this elasticity could be increased still further.

My concern about civilian casualties arises from two points. The first is the long-term fabric of the society. If women and children are traumatised by violence, it may take a generation to rebuild a stable society and it must be in this country’s interests to establish and maintain stable societies wherever possible. Secondly, and no less importantly, civilian casualties must be one of the best recruiting sergeants for extremists. If I see my village wrecked and my family and community blown apart, I am unlikely to be sympathetic to the people who have caused my world to be turned upside down.

At the core of my concern are the figures given by the noble Baroness about the discrepancy between what Airwars has said about coalition casualties, excluding the Russian casualties, of which I think there are a great deal more—some 3,000 or more. This leads me to believe that somewhere something must be going wrong. Airwars has got its figures wrong, or the coalition members are looking the other way, or the procedures for identifying and recording civilian casualties are faulty. This country, which has now carried out some 600 air strikes in Iraq and Syria and flown more than 2,000 combat missions against Daesh, should surely have a keen interest in ensuring that the truth is established and publicised. Our international reputation demands no less. This amendment, if accepted, would help in that process.

I conclude by saying that I hope my noble friend will forgive me if I gently chide his department. As a result of the issues raised in that earlier debate in Grand Committee, which I referred to, which are also the raw material of our discussion this evening, I wrote to him raising a series of specific questions. My letter was dated 15 March, and I am afraid that I have yet to receive a reply. Will he be prepared to act as the man from Dyno-Rod? If so, I would be extraordinarily grateful.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, I will be very brief. When we considered an amendment very similar to this in Committee, I said that on this side we certainly welcomed the aspirations that motivated it—the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, tabled it at that time—but we certainly had doubts that it was the best way of dealing with reporting on civilian casualties. I fear that although this amendment is much more focused, as he mentioned, those doubts remain.

Of course it is right to report on civilian casualties caused by air strikes, but we should also be made aware of all civilian casualties, including those caused by the actions of ground forces. I can only repeat a key point I made in Committee when I stressed that reporting on civilian casualties is not an Armed Forces role alone but needs to involve the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development. This is a matter for a cross-government approach that seeks an agreement on how to report on civilian casualties caused in a conflict in which our Armed Forces are involved. However, it must be done in a way that that gives everybody confidence, and such an approach must also ensure that we maintain operational security. That is important; I am not sure whether the noble Lord who has just spoken feels it is quite that important, but certainly that point was made, rightly, by the Minister in Committee.

We do not need primary legislation to achieve the aims of this amendment, but if the Government were minded to consult on finding a better way to embrace the aims of the amendment and to consult so that we could find a solution which we could all support on properly reporting on civilian casualties, we would certainly want to co-operate with them on that. However, this amendment is not the solution and we will not support it.