General Election: Voting Rights

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Tuesday 25th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Since the last election, the issue has been discussed on several occasions in the other place. Each time that it was put to a vote, the proposition that the noble Lord has just referred to was voted down. We are in line with most mature democracies in having a voting age of 18, which is aligned with the age for jury service. I do not detect a huge public demand to lower it.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, what efforts are being made by different agencies and government to ensure not only that there is participation in terms of registration to vote but that those people who will be on holiday on general election day can vote?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend takes a keen interest in matters psephological. He is quite right that a large number of people who have retired will be taking their holiday in June. The Electoral Commission is aware of this propensity and, as part of its campaign to encourage people to register to vote, it will be taking on board the necessity to remind people who are going to be away that they should vote by post. I suspect that the political parties will be taking similar initiatives.

Electoral Registration Pilot Scheme (England) (Amendment) Order 2017

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, before I comment specifically on the statutory instruments before the House, I will raise one or two questions relating to the general principle of ensuring that our electoral rolls are as accurate and complete as possible. I see the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Rennard, in their seats. I think the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, in particular is likely to touch on the subject if he speaks soon after me. I am concerned, as I think we all have been concerned and successive Governments have been concerned, about the fact that the register is accurate for certain groups—the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, touched on that in part in his brief comments—but large groups of the population are regularly missed in one form or another.

I mentioned this to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, in advance, but I did not have a chance to mention it to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. Yesterday during Questions a Question came up relating to the 18 pilot projects identified around the country as a result of what one might describe as the Pickles review. I have been informed—I have not had the chance to check it, but I believe it to be correct—that in the case of both Burnley and Pendle the Labour and Liberal Democrat councillors on those councils have voted against participating in the schemes, despite the fact that in each case they are among the 18 authorities identified for review. I will say only this: I regret it enormously if that is the case, because being innovative and trying to find ways to deal with fraud and underregistration are key to the processes of our elections, whether they be local or national.

Specifically on the statutory instruments, I broadly welcome them for the same reason that the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, identified. We should be innovative. Society is changing quite markedly. It is much more mobile than it was when the original legislation was introduced. We have very different forms of campaigning nowadays from those we had when I was somewhat younger. Therefore, we have to find ways of getting hold of potential voters in whichever way we can. I shall comment also on the Minister’s opening remarks, which concentrated rather too much for my comfort on savings. We were not given indications relating to the accuracy of the trials that have taken place so far. The Electoral Commission and other interested parties are conscious of not only the potential savings but the potential accuracy and gain achieved by any particular process within this trial.

I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Young, in his opening comments said that the results had been fairly positive from 2016. I recognise that it is a small step forward with a limited number of trials in local authorities. That is a good basis from which to work. Given where we are in the electoral cycle, and given that there are discussions with the local authorities that he identified, I shall ask for clarification just for confirmation that these projects will not interfere in any way with the local elections that are taking place. I assume that most of the preparatory work will take place later in the calendar year, but I would like that confirmation because a fair number of the local authorities to which he referred have elections—either in Scotland or Wales or in the county council elections this year.

I must admit that I am surprised and disappointed that the locations that he identified were the ones chosen. I think I understood him correctly to say that they would provide a range of local authorities to test the system. The Minister referred to model 1. Looking at the order to identify the local authorities involved, two of the authorities in model 1 are Welsh: Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen, which demographically are very similar. As far as I could see, there was no marked variation between those two local authorities: they are essentially valley mining communities. They touch on my other keen interest, rugby, in that they have produced many of the great Welsh rugby players and the great Welsh rugby teams—but they are very similar. If one was looking for Welsh authorities, I would have thought that one would not go for two Welsh valley authorities.

Equally, on the same list we have the authorities of South Holland, South Norfolk and Ryedale—which, again, are very similar in general make-up. We do not have one London borough in that group, but we have two metropolitan authorities. One could reasonably argue that the metropolitan authorities balance for a London authority, but it would have been better, rather than having two metropolitan authorities, Newcastle and Wakefield, if we had looked for slightly different mets across the country.

The second group, the email group, has a balanced combination of authorities: Bath, Coventry, the Derbyshire Dales, Hounslow—the first local authority in London—and Woking. The third category, described as the discernment model, has one London authority: Camden. I am sure that Camden will produce stellar results in its review. I declare a personal interest here: my niece is the Labour leader of that council, so I am sure that it will do its job very effectively indeed. Alongside that authority we have Salford, Sunderland and Birmingham—again, a combination of three mets, which I do not think shows a reasonable balance. That is combined with South Lakeland. There are no unitary authorities from any part of the country. That is not a particularly balanced grouping.

I have the same observation relating to the fourth grouping, the telephone model, where four local authorities are identified in England: East Devon, Luton, South Oxfordshire and the Vale of White Horse. Three of those are district councils; most people would regard them as rural and fairly wealthy; and we have the rather odd position where South Oxfordshire and the Vale of White Horse—I again declare an interest as, being Lord Hayward, of Cumnor, I originate from one of those local authorities—are neighbouring authorities in Oxfordshire. You will not get much variation of information by picking that as a group. Therefore, if it is possible at this stage, I ask whether some of those local authorities could be switched round. It may be too late, but I make those observations on the different groupings.

I shall ask one final question relating to the use of telephones. More and more people do not have a landline. They operate totally on mobiles. It was not clear from the Minister’s opening comments whether the tests would include solely landlines or a combination of landlines and mobiles, or whether the authorities have access in one form or another to mobile numbers—I would be surprised if they do not in most cases. Those should be used, in the right circumstances and with the right qualifications—the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, referred to data protection—because that will help the process.

I have made a few overall comments. I hope I have raised specific questions that can be dealt with either today or at a later stage in a written reply. But, overall, I broadly welcome the process as long as the objective is to achieve greater rates of registration, as well as the saving to local authorities in the process.

[Lord Rennard (LD)]

My Lords, the sentiments expressed in the Minister’s very thorough brief about modernisation, efficiency and cost saving are very worthy and have my support. But we should consider the issues very carefully because none of the sentiments outweigh the overarching principle of the requirement in a democracy to make sure that every citizen entitled to vote is enabled to do so by being on the electoral register.

During the passage of the Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013, I was among those who fought to preserve the principle of the annual canvass, and we ensured then that it was retained. After much deliberation, the canvass was seen—as the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, has just said—as an essential part of ensuring both the completeness and the accuracy of the electoral register. But the principle was hotly contested during those debates. Certainly, there were some within the Government who simply argued that it should go as a cost-saving measure; while others of us argued that ensuring that people entitled to vote were registered to do so was part of the cost of democracy and essential to the principle of fair elections. We come now, four years later, to look again at the issue of the annual canvass and how it can best be operated.

People like me have accepted that there might be better and more cost-effective ways of canvassing to complete the register and ensure its accuracy. Those of us—and there are many of us in the House—with long experience of canvassing in elections know a lot, I suspect, about targeting canvass efforts. In some areas it may be worth knocking on doors several times, while in others it may perhaps be impractical to call upon households personally. During the discussions four years ago one Minister told me that he thought the annual canvass was now completely redundant. He had been taken out by his advisers to a gated community and shown how it was almost impossible to gain access to canvass. It was suggested to him that the principle of the annual canvass should therefore be dropped. But such gated communities represent less than 1% of all households in the UK. The vast majority of households are accessible, and canvassing them is often an essential part of the process of completing the electoral register.

What I think can be done, however, is to use more modern methods to try and register as many people as possible in advance of attempting to call personally on doorsteps. Concentrating canvassing efforts on particular households where there is a need to make personal contact, and perhaps on low-registration areas where, for example, there may be many homes in multiple occupation, may be a higher priority—but all of this is predicated on making every effort to get people registered in ways that do not require a personal visit. If we are to extend this principle and vary the methodology involved in the annual canvass, I would like to ask the Minister about a couple of issues relevant to registering more people in advance of the doorstep call.

First, as we have discussed in correspondence, there is the provision of national insurance numbers to 16 and 17 year-olds. The Minister has told me that Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs is willing, in principle, to supply to young people with their national insurance number information about how it can be used to register to vote. That clearly will save money and reduce the number of people who need to be called on personally. Since then, the Electoral Commission has said that there should be an automatic process of registration, so that when HMRC issues a national insurance number to a 16 or 17 year-old they are automatically included on the electoral register. That must fulfil the cost-saving principle that the Minister outlined in detail and would be a much better way of ensuring that 16 and 17 year-olds are included on the register. At that age they are already able to vote in Scottish Parliament elections, and it will ensure that they are on the register by the time they are 18 and can vote in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Secondly, I come again to the issue of student registration. It is particularly hard under the old-fashioned household canvass rules to canvass students in halls of residence and put them on the electoral register. The Explanatory Memorandum for the statutory instruments states:

“The purposes of these pilots are to gather evidence to establish whether alternative methods can be used to conduct the canvass that are just as efficient and more cost effective”.


We know that the traditional annual canvass method is not appropriate for students and we already know from pilots—which the Cabinet Office itself has referred to—that it is far cheaper and much more effective to offer students the opportunity to go on to the electoral register at the same time as they enrol for their course.

We know, for example from the Sheffield pilot that we debated, that students can be registered at a cost—according to Sheffield Council—of approximately 14p per student, compared to £5 per student using the traditional methodology which includes the annual canvass. In terms of completeness, which is a stated aim of government policy, the Sheffield model is registering students at a rate of about 76%, compared to institutions of a similar size registering students at a rate of only around 13%. The models may need to vary for different higher education students, but, if we are to change the principles of the annual canvass, we need to use all these methods to make sure that underregistered groups are more effectively represented on the electoral register.

Elections and Referendums: Spending Rules

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for the way he put that question. He will understand that I cannot respond to the particular instances that have now been referred to the police and prosecution authorities. The legislation—the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act—sought to make a distinction between national spending on the one hand and constituency spending on the other. As I said a few moments ago, I think it makes sense to wait until the investigations by the Electoral Commission and the police are completed. Then, of course, we should stand back and look at the legislation to see whether we need greater clarity for all political parties in interpreting how that distinction should be made.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I welcome what my noble friend just said on this particular convoluted collection of legislation. The process of conducting elections has moved on dramatically over the last 20 years. In reality, the law in all its guises has been in need of reform throughout that period. May I also make a quick reference to the third Question on the Order Paper, and say that that may include treating?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to my noble friend. He is right to say that there are a number of reports—the report from Sir Eric Pickles on fraud in local elections, the report from my noble friend Lord Hodgson on third-party campaigning, and the interim report of the Law Commission—which have an impact on the legislation on elections. As I said a few moments ago, it makes sense to stand back, look at all the recommendations and, in consultation with the Electoral Commission and all the political parties, see how best to take this forward in order to restore public confidence in the democratic system.

Electoral Fraud

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Electoral Commission has identified 18 areas where there is a higher risk of electoral fraud, and Sir Eric has recommended that there should be a pilot in 2018 whereby ID must be produced to reduce incidents of impersonation. The Government are currently consulting on which local authority areas should take part in those pilots in 2018, and of course some of those local authorities at risk will be invited to participate.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I note the answer that my noble friend just gave in relation to the 18 areas. When going out and considering the pilot areas that might be involved, could he strongly encourage those local authorities to participate? There may be reticence in some cases, but the Government and the Electoral Commission have identified them as problem areas and they really ought to participate in those test projects in 2018.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend has great expertise in this area and I listen carefully to what he says. It would be in the interest of those local authorities that have been identified as being at risk by the Electoral Commission to take part in the pilots that I have just referred to, to remove any doubts about the election results in those areas.

House of Lords Act 1999 (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Friday 9th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I think my noble friend has already done that because his remarks will be in Hansard. I am sure they will take note.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Before my noble friend sits down, I have not spoken in this debate but I echo the comments made by other noble Lords that we believe this House is already far too large and should be reduced rapidly.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

Noted.

European Union Referendum (Voter Registration) Regulations 2016

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to support the Motion put forward by the Minister and to commend the Government and the other House on ensuring that full public engagement can take place at this time. I believe that this surge was a result of the just-in-time generation being able to do things at the last minute. We probably have a lot to learn from that. It will be interesting to look at this issue—if one is able to define the 300,000-odd people who elected to register in the last 24 hours. Without this statutory instrument we would be denying the basic human right in a democracy, such as the UK, to vote on such an important issue.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to ask the Minister to clarify one or two things, and to make one or two observations, following the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. One is tempted to remind ourselves that the words “IT project, success and Government” are not often used in the same sentence. This might be yet another instance of that, although, having said that, I think that the capacity installed was pretty substantial. That takes me to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, that, after the event, we will discover that a fair number of the people who were trying to register were already registered. Had that facility been available they would not have been overloading the system. As I said, we will not know the answer to that for several weeks, until the analysis has been done.

On my specific questions, first, are the returning officers fully okay with and accepting of the new timetables? I assume from what my noble friend Lord Bridges said that they are, but it would be appropriate, given the increased workload that they will face over a shorter period of time, to have confirmation that not only the Electoral Commission but the returning officers are satisfied that they can cope in the circumstances.

Secondly, and I do not expect an answer specifically relating to this at this point, when the specific regulations were debated in Committee I raised the opening of postal votes. I was given an assurance, although I have not checked Hansard precisely, that these would not be opened until the close of the poll because there were recognised implications for the markets around the world. I think that that was the assurance I was given. Rumours are going round about information emanating from the opening of postal votes already. I therefore ask the Minister to confirm with the Electoral Commission and with the returning officers that they are following due process as set out in the legislation and the regulations.

[Lord Wills (Lab)]

My Lords, I also support this legislation. I particularly endorse what the Minister said. Whatever position anyone takes on the European referendum, I hope everyone can agree that it is vital that everyone who is eligible to vote should be able to do so on this existentially important issue and that registration is the key to this. This is necessary and important legislation. I congratulate the Government on how swiftly they realised this after the debacle of online registration on Tuesday night and how quickly they acted on the wise advice of the Electoral Commission.

I also send my congratulations to Ministers and officials, who have acted with impressive speed in bringing this statutory instrument before your Lordships’ House. We now know that at least this part of the system works. I am also grateful to the Minister for the courtesy and consideration he showed to me in talking about these issues this morning.

I do not want to hold up the passage of this statutory instrument. It is important that it passes as quickly as possible. There will be a time to hold the Government systematically to account for their stewardship of the electoral system, but now is not the time. We have already heard a number of very important contributions in this short debate. I am sure that the Minister will take them away and reflect on them, as he has pledged to do.

It is important to determine whether the Government have now recognised that, while this legislation is necessary, it is not sufficient on its own to put right the problems experienced on Tuesday night. Practical delivery now rests with the Electoral Commission, but unfortunately, in my exchanges with it over the last few days, it seems to believe that because it has been doing a good job in securing increases in registration—it has been doing a very good job—then that is good enough. But when millions and millions of British citizens who are eligible to vote still cannot because they are not registered, and when the Government have been repeatedly warned of the dangers of their approach to electoral registration and disenfranchising people in this way, then good is not good enough. If higher levels of registration had been achieved over time, as the Government and the Electoral Commission have been repeatedly urged by many people to secure, the surge in applications that led to the problems on Tuesday night might well not have happened, at least on the scale that disrupted the system so badly. In these circumstances, an attitude that good is good enough is not acceptable.

Yesterday, the Minister reassured your Lordships’ House that he was not complacent about what happened and today we have heard that he wants to learn the lessons from it. To demonstrate that, would the Minister say what the Government have done since yesterday to persuade the Electoral Commission, providing any assurance of necessary funding, that what happened on Tuesday night created a new situation where a new communications strategy was necessary to ensure that everyone with a potential interest was told that registration is still possible until midnight tonight and how to do it? Finally, will he say what action he took, following his answer to me yesterday, to explore how social media could be used as part of such a communication strategy?

European Union Referendum (Conduct) Regulations 2016

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Monday 22nd February 2016 Grand Committee

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I say at the outset that I genuinely have no issues with the regulations before me. They are what I would expect to ensure a well-run, efficient referendum, and ensuring a well-run referendum is in everyone’s interest. We must never allow the conduct, or otherwise, of any ballot, election or referendum to become the story. However, I have a number of questions for the noble Lord, Lord Bridges of Headley, and I will go straight into them.

How will the noble Lord ensure that counting officers and their staff have sufficient resources in place to conduct this referendum properly? What plans do the Government have to impress upon the chief counting officer, the regional counting officers and the local counting officers the importance of delivering a well-run referendum and of avoiding past mistakes in elections? Do the Government intend to impress upon the chief counting officer the need to use her powers of direction at any point where she feels that confidence in the running of the ballot could be undermined by poor practice by counting officers and their staff?

We need an absolute guarantee that ballot papers for every single voter in the UK will be printed and available at the polling station—not just an estimated number that the local counting officer thinks may turn up to vote. How will the Government ensure that this happens? In the past, problems have been caused by people arriving in the last 30 minutes and not being able to vote. What specific actions will the Government be taking in this referendum to ensure that there are sufficient staff on duty at each ballot station to cope with a last-minute surge of people?

We have all cast a vote many times in the past. Let us think back: is the polling station we normally use adequate if a large number of people come in to vote? How will the Government ensure that polling stations can cope with a larger number of arrivals than normal? I know that you cannot change where the station is, but it may be that, instead of the usual smaller room, you could move to a bigger room in the school or whatever is being used.

What discussions will the Government have with the police about their role in ensuring that the referendum is free and fair? What discussions will the Government have with the police and crime commissioners to ensure a free and fair referendum?

How will the Government address the problem of a very close overall result and the calls for a full national recount that will inevitably follow? There will be local counts with a big win for one side and, frankly, all the people could have packed up and gone home. Is that something in the hands of the chief counting officer, or is there no provision for it?

When is the counting of votes going to take place? I hope the noble Lord will confirm that counting will start as quickly as possible after 10 pm. It is necessary for this to be done expeditiously, with counts starting at the same time across the UK.

Can the Minister explain the thinking of the Government on the regulated period? A 10-week regulated period would overlap with the elections for the Northern Ireland Assembly, the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. If a seven-week regulated period was in place then the elections and the referendum would be separate, which would be much clearer for everyone.

How are the Government going to ensure that the more than 2 million British citizens living abroad are able to register and vote?

Those are the points I have at the moment, but I hope that if the Minister responds to those, he will not mind if I put other points to him later. As I have said, I have no issues with the regulations as they stand. My questions arise only from reading the documents and wanting to ensure that we have a proper referendum and that the process does not become the story.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

May I ask, following on from that question, about the counting of postal votes? I noted that the Minister had a look of horror, concern or surprise—I am not sure which it was—when I came into the Room. He was fairly sure that I would ask one question or another. Under normal circumstances, postal votes are counted over a number of days and, despite the Electoral Commission’s best guidance which is being implemented by most councils, it is sometimes possible to see the results of those postal votes. Given that, in these circumstances, any leak of information will be seriously market sensitive in relation to the value of the pound and other aspects that might impact on the City and the world’s stock markets, could my noble friend say whether postal votes will be counted on the day, thereby minimising the chance of leaks in advance, or, as they normally are in other elections, over a series of days?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

I thank both noble Lords who have spoken, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, who speaks with a lot of experience. I will try to answer his excellent questions. Like him, I wish to see this referendum being conducted properly, fairly and efficiently. I will answer his questions in the spirit in which he asked them.

The noble Lord asked how the Government plan to ensure that counting officers and their staff at polling stations have sufficient resources to conduct the referendum properly, and about what plans we have to impress on chief, regional and local counting officers the importance of delivering a well-run referendum and avoiding past mistakes in elections. Those are fair questions. The Electoral Commission’s planning for the referendum, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, is already well under way; a management structure of groups and the regional counting officers is in place to ensure effective planning. I am sure that the noble Lord, having himself been an electoral commissioner during the 2011 referendum, will be aware of the approach taken by the chief counting officer and her team to ensure that that poll was well-run, and I am sure that she is taking on board and learning from that experience in planning for the poll on 23 June.

A related question was how the Government intend to impress on the chief counting officer the need to use her powers of direction at any point when she might feel confidence in the running of the ballot could be undermined by poor practice by counting officers and their staff. On this point, I am also sure that the chief counting officer and her team at the Electoral Commission will be playing very close attention to the debate and to the remarks that the noble Lord has just made, and will note the legitimate concerns here. This goes without saying, but I will make the obvious point that we are in very close touch with the Electoral Commission on the operations of the poll, and government officials and I will ensure that the noble Lord’s points are flagged up with it directly.

Another related point was about ensuring that ballot papers for every single voter will be printed and available at the polling station and what the Government are doing to ensure that the polling stations are of sufficient size to cope with larger than normal numbers. As the noble Lord will know, the detail of how the polls are run is a matter for the chief counting officer. We are aware that numbers of ballot papers and the logistics of polling stations are among the delivery matters that the Electoral Commission has already considered and planned for with directions and guidance. For example, the chief counting officer has indicated that she will require ballot papers to be printed to cover 110% of the eligible electorate, to ensure that sufficient papers are available, and that contingencies will be in place.

As regards the declaration of the results, the votes will be counted overnight. The conduct rules specify that counting officers must begin counting the votes as soon as practical after polling closes at 10 pm. As well as the overall result of the referendum, which will be decided by a simple majority, separate results will be announced for each voting area and region. Separate results will be declared for each local authority as well as for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar.

Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 (Transitional Provisions) Order 2015

Lord Hayward Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I rise having listened to the full debate and, like many in this place, having fought many elections. In fact, my noble friend Lord Cormack referred to having canvassed in every election since 1959. I have fought a fair number of elections and the House of Lords Information Office has been good enough to produce biographical details on me. According to its information, I first fought Kingswood in January 1900 and in the same month it says I fought Christchurch, so, according to the Information Office, I somewhat outdo most Peers in this House. That will be corrected at some point.

I start on an aspect of harmony. A number of noble Lords on both sides, but originally the noble Lord, Lord Wills, identified that we should produce ID in voting. I wholeheartedly agree with all those who made those points.

On elections, a number of those who know me know that I have been interested in this subject for many years. In fact, and this is to some extent an admission of guilt but I hope of impartiality as well, I was the second new entry in the 1983 intake into the other House to vote against a government three-line whip. I did so on the paving Bill in relation to the abolition of the GLC because I thought it inappropriate. My comments today in support of what the Government propose are against the background that I have taken and still take a very dispassionate view on these matters.

I will pick up a number of points covered by other Members of this House. First, the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, commented on registration fraud. Unfortunately, it would appear that she has not read the verdict, statements and analysis of the recent case in Tower Hamlets where there is clear identification of that position. Also, the Electoral Commission in 2012 made the point that there should be improvements in electoral registration in Tower Hamlets. It identified that Tower Hamlets had a policy and administration that were above the practice of many of the London boroughs.

I turn to the question of “ghost” voters. I choose to call them that because having tried to contact these people nine times, they must be pretty close to being ghosts. The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, referred to the fact that there may well be people among that 1.9 million—dropping to 1.4 million or 1.2 million—who voted in May. I could understand it if the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, had made particular reference to that and said that this order should not be introduced until there had been that sort of matching process. Instead, we have a catch-all that we will do away with it completely or delay it until 2016.

However, these people have been called on nine times. I now speak from personal experience. I currently live some 200 yards from where the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, went to primary school. When I attempted to be a candidate in the last London elections, I visited my neighbours. They were not on the electoral roll. I visited the neighbours four doors down, and they were not on the electoral roll either. When I first moved into my current address, I had eight years of having somebody on the electoral roll who had never lived there. That is the essence of this debate. We are talking about removing people who we have attempted to contact nine times as against those people who a number of noble Lords have said we need to get on the electoral roll. Those are two different groups of people, and that should be recognised in this debate.

I also listened to a number of contributions in which there have been criticisms of what happened in Northern Ireland. They said, “It happened like this”, or “It happened like that”. That seems to be a justification not for delaying but for not having IER in the first place. You cannot have both. If you are to have IER, then you will face some of those problems. They have to be tackled through better collecting of registration.

In his opening remarks, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made comments about shop stewards which a number of people who have backgrounds as shop stewards would consider a little unfortunate. He suggested that the AEA was the “shop stewards’ fora”—I think that was the phrase he used. He then went on to quote the Electoral Commission’s report. On page 3, under acknowledgements, there is only one acknowledgement and it is to that same group of people for their work.

I turn to the question that he identified about primarily urban or rural communities and their retained electors. Taking the top 20 authorities with the worst record on retained electors, it is not, as has been suggested, filled purely with Scottish or London boroughs, although there are a lot of London boroughs among them. The deprived London borough of Kensington and Chelsea is third on the list. The equally deprived borough of Windsor and Maidenhead comes out 12th. Harrow and Scarborough appear in the same block. None of them is an area that one would identify as being either deprived or necessarily totally urban.

[Lord Wills]

The noble Lord raises the question of statistics. Is he aware of the relative registration rates in Conservative and Labour constituencies? I should be interested to know what his figures are for those national data.

[Lord Hayward]

I am, but I have not got them with me. I am happy to write to the noble Lord with the answer. They are not particularly relevant to the point I am making which is the one cited by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler about the difference in registration from one place to another in relation to those who would suffer if those ghosts were removed. I have just mentioned those areas where the level of retention would appear to be worst, if I may use that word.

On the other hand, there are authorities at the other end of the spectrum which have tackled this issue incredibly well, including the deprived areas of Hartlepool, Halton, Redcar and Cleveland, Barrow-in-Furness, Chesterfield and Bridgend. I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton, because one of the authorities with a reasonably good record so far is Liverpool. Knowsley, which nobody can argue is anything other than deprived, has a strikingly good record. So there is no correlation between the two. There is a correlation between some parts of the country and others. I would like to identify some of the other places—

[Lord Wills]

Actually, I know the answer to the question I asked the noble Lord. I was about to tell him. There is roughly a 6% difference between registration levels in Conservative-held seats and Labour-held seats. That might have changed a little in the last general election, but I doubt by very much. There is a significant difference.

[Lord Hayward]

I do not challenge that. The noble Lord has made the point for me. We are talking about people who are registered or not registered and not about the ghost voters whom we are talking about in this debate.

There are other areas of deprivation where they have cleansed the register very effectively. There is a whole series of authorities in Wales—places such as Bridgend, Cardiff, Swansea and Rhondda Cynon Taff. All of them have low figures of problems, if I may use the term, in cleansing their registers. I have not raised this, but if it is right that it was possible in Wales to have cleansed the registers in those sorts of authorities, why is it not the case in London? If it is suggested that this is to do with boundaries, then the places that will suffer are the valleys of Wales because they have cleansed their registers. The boroughs of London which have not cleansed theirs will benefit.

In conclusion, we have been talking about this group of people—these ghosts—as if there is no burden. There is a substantial burden on local authorities. They have to print the electoral rolls with all these people on them, many of whom should not be there. They issue polling cards. They issue ballot papers. There has to be freepost provision for these people for some elections. There is an attendant burden. No wonder the AEA makes its views clear on what it thinks would be the best position. It recognises that there is an unnecessary burden on a large number of local authorities. If one removes retained voters from the register, we will not be sending out all the unnecessary cards, ballot papers, freeposts, et cetera, during the upcoming election.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Lord Bridges of Headley) (Con)]

My Lords—